Are all lies sinful?

[seeker_of_God]

Is all lying a sin, even white lies?

I don’t see why any lying should not be sinful, but I have a friend who says lies with good intentions are OK.

I sometimes am in some awkward situations where sometimes others want me to lie. Let me explain.

I’m in a fraternity, and just got in last semester, so I’m witnessing a pledge class come through for my first time.

Obviously we can’t tell them everything, but also we have to outright lie about some things.
Like if they ask how long it is until initiation, I have to say it depends on how they do, when really we have a set date. Such things make me a little uncomfortable, though I realize it is all part of their program.

This is just an example, albeit an important one. I’m just interested to know in general if there is any type of lie that is not a sin.

 

[quasimodo]

Perhaps you are new here. This is a question that makes me think, “Oh No! here we go again.” There will be people on both sides and no conclusion will come of it.

Here’s my idea:

Not all lying is a sin. The principle of de minimis non curat lex applies here, meaning that the law is not interested in trivial matters.

Even in non-trivial matters, consider the midwives of Israel who lied to their Egyptian rulers about the children being born to the Hebrew women. They lied and were rewarded for it, rewarded by God.

Usually this discussion conjures up the old Anne Franke “dilemma.” Would you lie to the Nazi at your door about the Jews hiding in your attic? I spoke to a catholic moral theologian about it, and he said you have a positive moral obligation to lie in this situation.

So, No! Not all lies are sins.

 

[Genesis315]

All lies are sinful. In a way, they are sins against faith. God is the author of reality. When we lie, we are obscuring what God has authored and attempting to take his place by asserting a different “reality.” Sure, the truth may cause tribulations, but we have faith that the tribulations we must endure are for our sanctification providing us all with ample opportunities for love, patience, hope, etc.

I hope that helps!

 

[larsegarots]

What about this lie from a travel agent?

“A nice lady just called. She needed to know how it was possible that her flight from Detroit left at 8:20am and got into Chicago at 8:33am. I tried to explain that Michigan was an hour ahead of llinois, but she could not understand the concept of time zones. Finally I told her the plane went very fast, and she bought that!”

 

[Wirraway]

…Sure, the truth may cause tribulations, …

tortured and murdered by the *ze nazis *seems more than a tribulation to me. would you really snitch off anne?

by the way, who is the “we” who must “endure” said tribulations? the rat? or ms. frank?

 

[seeker_of_God]

I see both of your points, Quasimodo and Genesis315, but am not sure which is the case.

But where is the line drawn?

Quasimodo, yes, I am new here. Sorry if I opened up a can of worms.

 

[quasimodo]

I see both of your points, Quasimodo and Genesis315, but am not sure which is the case.

But where is the line drawn?

Quasimodo, yes, I am new here. Sorry if I opened up a can of worms.

you may not lie to someone who has a right to the truth. your pledges don’t have a right to the details of a secret ceremony that they volunteered to undergo. if you had kidnapped them off the street or were paying them to do this, then they have a right. As it is … de minimis. God has better things to do than judge this kind of trivia undertaken for fun.

 

[LilyM]

you may not lie to someone who has a right to the truth. your pledges don’t have a right to the details of a secret ceremony that they volunteered to undergo. if you had kidnapped them off the street or were paying them to do this, then they have a right. As it is … de minimis. God has better things to do than judge this kind of trivia undertaken for fun.

Them not having a right to know the truth means you can keep silence, it doesn’t permit of you lying to them. And telling the truth is not trivial in any situation. Jesus is THE truth, so truth would be an incredibly important thing to Him, it going so much to the heart of who He is. I can’t imagine he’d treat any situation where one deliberately and needlessly tells an untruth particularly lightly - see the story of Ananias and Sapphira.

As for the old Nazis-hunting-Anne-Frank dilemma, an untruth in such a situation is likely to be excused and not sinvul. Not because the lying itself isn’t objectively an affront to God (I belive it would be, maybe mortal, maybe venial), but rather because of the duress you’re likely to undergo which removes the necessary requirement of voluntariness.

Such duress would exist on many levels. You’d be fearing both for her safety and the consequences to her of you telling the truth. Also the consequences to yourself - and anyone found to be hiding Jews would surely be harshly punished by the Nazis. Not to mention the physical or emotional violence that would undoubtedly accompany the asking of the question.

 

[seeker_of_God]

Them not having a right to know the truth means you can keep silence, it doesn’t permit of you lying to them. And telling the truth is not trivial in any situation. Jesus is THE truth, so truth would be an incredibly important thing to Him, it going so much to the heart of who He is. I can’t imagine he’d treat any situation where one deliberately and needlessly tells an untruth particularly lightly - see the story of Ananias and Sapphira.

As for the old Nazis-hunting-Anne-Frank dilemma, an untruth in such a situation is likely to be excused and not sinvul. Not because the lying itself isn’t objectively an affront to God (I belive it would be, maybe mortal, maybe venial), but rather because of the duress you’re likely to undergo which removes the necessary requirement of voluntariness.

Such duress would exist on many levels. You’d be fearing both for her safety and the consequences to her of you telling the truth. Also the consequences to yourself - and anyone found to be hiding Jews would surely be harshly punished by the Nazis. Not to mention the physical or emotional violence that would undoubtedly accompany the asking of the question.

Thanks for that response; it seems reasonable enough.

I’ve really been trying to stop lying. I’m not a chronic liar by any stretch of the term, but still there are times where I feel it’s more convenient to lie than to tell the truth, and I’ve been trying to change that.

This is one of those situations though where I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place, so wanted to know whether it is a sin.

I try to twist it so I’m not technically lying, but the intention is still to deceive, so I’m not sure if that even matters. I guess the safest is just to refuse to answer.

I do feel very wrong when I lie, which is also why I’m looking into this and trying to correct it.

 

[Catholic90]

CAse 1: “Honey, do these pants make me look fat?”

Do you 1) tell the truth
or 2) make her feel bad?



Case 2: Gramma gives wool socks and granny underwear for Christmas…

Do you 1) say thanks and that you love them and will wear them often
or 2) say “what were you thinking? I will never wear anything like this.”


Case 3: An abused woman finally summons enough courage to leave. She happened to find shelter through your sister, who works with abused women. The enraged man comes over to your house to ask if you know where she is.

Do you 1) tell him where she is
or 2) tell him you have no idea what is going on?


In none of these do I see what good telling the 100% truth would be.

 

[LilyM]

CAse 1: “Honey, do these pants make me look fat?”

Do you 1) tell the truth
or 2) make her feel bad?



Case 2: Gramma gives wool socks and granny underwear for Christmas…

Do you 1) say thanks and that you love them and will wear them often
or 2) say “what were you thinking? I will never wear anything like this.”


Case 3: An abused woman finally summons enough courage to leave. She happened to find shelter through your sister, who works with abused women. The enraged man comes over to your house to ask if you know where she is.

Do you 1) tell him where she is
or 2) tell him you have no idea what is going on?


In none of these do I see what good telling the 100% truth would be.

case 1 and 2 are, of course, very different from case 3 in that while feelings are possibly hurt, no serious harm to body or soul would result from saying ‘you’re fat’ or ‘I don’t like the present’. But in neither case is lying required to preserve feelings, therefore don’t do it!

In case 1 you have two options - the easiest is 1) If you can stand the dress or pants but they aren’t wonderful. ‘Honey you always look beautiful’. Full stop. And MEAN it - doesn’t she always look beautiful if not always glamorous??? And refuse to be drawn into any further discussion.

or 2) if you REALLY don’t like what she’s wearing - diplomatic truth-telling, as in ‘you know you always look great to me, honey, but [other garment that DOES really make her look great] is my favourite’.

Any wife who gets offended by you expressing a preference in such a way is really being ridiculous (and I say this as a woman who is not without more than my fair share of vanity).

Case 2) ‘Thanks for the present, grandma, it’s always special to get a gift from you’. Full stop. Why do you even need to tell her you’re going to wear it always if that’s not true? Isn’t the above compliment enough?

Case 3 is similar to the hiding-Anne-Frank-from-the-Nazis situation, probably not sinful because of the duress.

 

[Highwayhound]

I don’t see why any lying should not be sinful, but I have a friend who says lies with good intentions are OK.

This is a great opportunity to set an example for your friend. I think it was LilyM that gave some good suggestions about telling the truth versus lying. Keep it simple and straight.

Obviously we can’t tell them everything, **but also we have to outright lie **about some things.
Like if they ask how long it is until initiation, I have to say it depends on how they do, when really we have a set date. Such things make me a little uncomfortable, though I realize it is all part of their program.

There are a couple of approaches one can take in such situations.

Humor is good, “That is for me to know and you to find out…” Then the poker match starts as they try to get a read on you and your facial expressions.

Straight forward works too, “I promised not to tell” or “I cannot say at this time”. Again the poker match starts.

I have another example I use during magic shows when asked, “How did you do that?”, but it is so good I am going to keep it a secret. No poker match here as the internet protects me

Also, the older you get the easier it is to be genuine and honest in such situations (as long as you make it a practice now).

Lastly, concerning situations where a murder is to be committed. If you give the murder information that allows them to then commit the murder then you would have blood on your hands. The murder has no right to the information you have.

Pop quiz: which commandment covers murder?

So when is the initiation?

God bless you and help keep you honest

 

[Wirraway]

did anyone, anywhere, make the argument that not lying to the nazis about frank was proper?

 

[seeker_of_God]

Highwayhound, those are great suggestions. Thanks!

I will try to put this into practice, and try to stop that habitual lying about small things such as that. I mean that when something like that happens, it is my first instinct just to lie, because they certainly can’t know the truth. I’ll work on changing that instinct.

 

[Caesar517]

As for the old Nazis-hunting-Anne-Frank dilemma, an untruth in such a situation is likely to be excused and not sinvul. Not because the lying itself isn’t objectively an affront to God (I belive it would be, maybe mortal, maybe venial), but rather because of the duress you’re likely to undergo which removes the necessary requirement of voluntariness.

Such duress would exist on many levels. You’d be fearing both for her safety and the consequences to her of you telling the truth. Also the consequences to yourself - and anyone found to be hiding Jews would surely be harshly punished by the Nazis. Not to mention the physical or emotional violence that would undoubtedly accompany the asking of the question.

This is a common answer, but I’m not satisfied with it. You are saying that lying is intrinsically evil, but under those circumstances, culpability would be little to none. (that’s what you meant, right?)

My problem I have with this answer is that I’m convinced the morally correct thing to do you be to lie to prevent murder. If something is intrinsically evil, it is never the morally correct course of action under any circumstances.

Here is what I believe:
If someone has a right to the truth, we are obligated to reveal that truth when asked. If someone does not have a right to the truth, we may remain silent. If there is some reason why remaining silent would be undesirable or could lead to sin, a lie or deception in speech is justifiable.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

I can think of two examples Rahab, in the Old Testament, who hid the Israelite spies and lied to keep them from being murdered. In the New Testament, she was commended for her faith. The other example is the Holocaust. Priests would hide Jews in their friaries, the Pope gave Jews false baptismal certificates and false medical certificates to aid them from Nazism.
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef2.html
Lying is a venial sin, murder is a mortal sin so… Blessed be the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the Sacred Heart of Jesus!!!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[Mike_Dye]

Is all lying a sin, even white lies?

I don’t see why any lying should not be sinful, but I have a friend who says lies with good intentions are OK.

I sometimes am in some awkward situations where sometimes others want me to lie. Let me explain.

I’m in a fraternity, and just got in last semester, so I’m witnessing a pledge class come through for my first time.

Obviously we can’t tell them everything, but also we have to outright lie about some things.
Like if they ask how long it is until initiation, I have to say it depends on how they do, when really we have a set date. Such things make me a little uncomfortable, though I realize it is all part of their program.

This is just an example, albeit an important one. I’m just interested to know in general if there is any type of lie that is not a sin.

No lying is not always a sin, Previous posts have addressed the Ann Frank and Nazis example and how the Nazis have no right to the truth. The poster said that we could just not reveal the truth. I believe we can go even further, I would lie outright just to cause confusion and mayhem among their ranks. It may be wrong but I don’t care.

What about this.

Suppose your best friend found the love of his life. She was everything he had been waiting for, a good, holy, caring woman . After a period of courtship he asks her to be his wife. she says yes and the first person he runs to is his best friend…you.
Oh I forgot to mention that she has a honker that would put Jimmy Durante to shame…I mean if her nose were full of nickels we could all retire. So he asks you, Do you think she is pretty? How would you have me answer, oh yes she is pretty except for that city bus she has plastered in the middle of her face… well not me…I am going to say yes she is…I may even go so far as telling him that her snozz is no bigger than a VW.
And what about your Mom, how often did she say she really didn’t want the last piece of cake, knowing that you wanted it. Let the other purist posters turn their Mom in for being a BIG LYING MOUTH. Not me… I guess I will always be lie boy