Are all men created equal?

[seekerz]

Coming off a discussion on a different thread is the idea that maybe we’re not all created equal after all.

I find it an interesting position since in my experience, many people equate equality with sameness. Needless to say we’re all unique, so if ‘equal’ is synonymous with ‘same’ then the concept of equality is irrelevant.

If, on the other hand, equality is seen as a quality intrinsic to every created human being (whether or not that quality is allowed to be manifested in the real world), then despite our differences we are really all equal.

My feeling is that we humans tend to have over-inflated opinions of ourselves which is often fed by a tendency to segregate ourselves into competing groups preoccupied with attaining the top position on the totem pole.

Encounters with God, help us put that totem pole in proper perspective: barely higher than the ground, even at it’s highest point. Studies of the history of man, illustrate just how comical is our futile jostling for the top position. Real elevation is only possible through the cross of Christ on which He lay for all men.

I’d like to know what other people think, and why.

 

[JimG]

Obviously we are not all equal in all things. We are not equal in abilities of various sorts, in size or height, or talents; neither are we all equal in virtues.

But we are all created equal in human dignity.

 

[Swan]

Obviously we are not all equal in all things. We are not equal in abilities of various sorts, in size or height, or talents; neither are we all equal in virtues.

But we are all created equal in human dignity.

I agree. This is why it is important to me that the dignity of each individual be respected - regardless of race, creed, etc.

 

[Badaliyyah]

Are all men created equal?

yes. much to the disappointment of women everywhere.

 

[cpayne]

Created equal morally before God, equal in human dignity and innate rights, and in some countries equal legally before the law.

The things which make us unequal (economics, status, education, etc.) seem of much less importance than the things which make us equal.

 

[seekerz]

Created equal morally before God, equal in human dignity and innate rights, and in some countries equal legally before the law.

The things which make us unequal (economics, status, education, etc.) seem of much less importance than the things which make us equal.

But if we are innately equal, surely external factors such as material wealth or education cannot diminish that. Which is why personally, I make a distinction between equality and sameness.

We may not all have the same things, live the same way or be treated the same in society. We may actually be treated unequally in our cultures or legal systems. We may even accept being treated as inferior or we may behave in a manner incompatible with our God-given dignity. None of that diminishes our innate equality with all other human beings - to me equality is endowed when God wills us into being, whether or not we choose to or are allowed to express it.

 

[KingAlfred]

“My feeling is that we humans tend to have over-inflated opinions of ourselves which is often fed by a tendency to segregate ourselves into competing groups preoccupied with attaining the top position on the totem pole.”

Thank you. I agree completely. Many people are so disappointingly obsessed with ‘status’, they’re constantly segregating themselves into supposedly ‘superior’ groups, when in fact doing so is contrary to the message and example of Jesus. Our common humanity is both beautiful and humbling, at the same time. Yes, as creatures of God’s creation, we are *all *beautiful. Conversely, we are all nothing more than human. Nothing we can do to our material existence can change that basic fact.

The example of Jesus inspires me so greatly in this regard. He came from humble stock, spoke with unprecedented authority without special human credentials, focused on the poor, lived and worked amongst them, spoke truth to power, and sacrificed Himself to His cause of fighting overpowering corruption. He empowered the powerless with Truth, as God commanded Him to do. I’m proud to work in the paradigm of Christ.

 

[jman507]

Created equal morally before God, equal in human dignity and innate rights, and in some countries equal legally before the law.

The things which make us unequal (economics, status, education, etc.) seem of much less importance than the things which make us equal.

I’d say that those things such as economics, status, education, etc. are very important. The former is important in giving guidance to the later; but just because you hold the former as true, does not mean one will fully and properly execute the later ideas that make us unequal. Some problems can be due to our weakness as fallen beings. The other is just plain incompetence to deal with the awfully complex and complicated situations of being able to sustain ourselves. To prudently deal with stewardship is important.

I think the totem pole image is really good. No matter how well we pride ourselves to be, we still are small. No matter how much we degrade ourselves in a another sense of pride, we still are not that far off from those whom are just better than us.

 

[liberational]

Yes, but the Catholic Church does not practice this reality.

Some men, (ordained clergy) are said to have special powers that the laity don’t have.

Men can achieve various entitlements and positions within the Church that are withheld from women…only because they are women.

Practicing homosexuals are reminded often of their sin by the Church and the laity on forums such as forums.catholic-questions.org.

Conversely, Catholics who do not attend weekly mass are never reminded or educated as to the sin they commit, especially within the Church during a sermon.

 

[thistle]

What I find ironic is that the US Constitution states that all men are created equal but it quite patently did not apply to Native Americans, African Americans or women all of whom were badly discriminated against until the recent past and arguably are still discriminated against.

 

[nuntym]

Yes, but the Catholic Church does not practice this reality.

Hmm, let’s examine your examples:

Some men, (ordained clergy) are said to have special powers that the laity don’t have.

Since not all men can handle the sacrifices and responsibilities of — i.e. they don’t have the calling to be — a clergyman. Like, you know, medical doctors are said to have special powers that the ordinary layman don’t have? Or that lawyers are said to have special powers that the ordinary layman don’t have? Or that policemen are said to have special powers that the ordinary layman don’t have? Or…etc.

Men can achieve various entitlements and positions within the Church that are withheld from women…only because they are women.

And unfortunately all clergy have mothers…and men cannot be mothers…only because they are men.

Practicing homosexuals are reminded often of their sin by the Church and the laity on forums such as forums.catholic-questions.org.

Reminding sinners in forums.catholic-questions.org of the sins they have done is inequality? I think when it comes to Catholic forums like this, it is the norm to be reminded of one’s own sins.

Now if you’ve made your example of a sinner not being reminded of his/her sins in a Catholic forum…THAT’s inequality.

Conversely, Catholics who do not attend weekly mass are never reminded or educated as to the sin they commit, especially within the Church during a sermon.

Can you please explain to me how Catholics that cannot be reminded or educated by Church sermons that not attending weekly mass is wrong because they do not attend those same sermons is an example of inequality?

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Some men, (ordained clergy) are said to have special powers that the laity don’t have.

People aren’t created priests, and the Church doesn’t say that they are.

 

[Swan]

What I find ironic is that the US Constitution states that all men are created equal but it quite patently did not apply to Native Americans, African Americans or women all of whom were badly discriminated against until the recent past and arguably are still discriminated against.

This is a good point. As a history teacher one thing I have realized is that it is imperative that when dealing with history we bear in mind the mindset of the time we are studying. Judging the past through the lens of the present leads us astray when we try to understand the actions of historical figures (all of them, not just the famous ones). This is because we have to get inside their heads, think like they thought, and to do this successfully we have to be cognizant of the prevailing attitudes and beliefs of that time and place and culture. I had to do that with Andrew Jackson, whom I abhor, in order to grasp his historical significance. Otherwise, all I could do was focus on what a jerk I think he was (Indian removal issues). Doing this also enables us to apply the lessons we’ve learned since in an effort to avoid making the same mistakes (doesn’t always work too well, does it?).

 

[seekerz]

What I find ironic is that the US Constitution states that all men are created equal but it quite patently did not apply to Native Americans, African Americans or women all of whom were badly discriminated against until the recent past and arguably are still discriminated against.

What you say is true, but the fact remains that badly treated or not, these groups are still equal to the rest of humanity. (If you look as equality as something innate rather than acquired). It’s like Jesus: none of the maltreatment meted out to Him while on earth changed the fact that He’s divine.

 

[Tic_Toc]

Since not all men can handle the sacrifices and responsibilities of — i.e. they don’t have the calling to be — a clergyman. Like, you know, medical doctors are said to have special powers that the ordinary layman don’t have? Or that lawyers are said to have special powers that the ordinary layman don’t have? Or that policemen are said to have special powers that the ordinary layman don’t have? Or…etc.

I think the point you’re missing is that any person, regardless of gender, is able to become a police officer, lawyer, or doctor. In the Church, only men are allowed to become priests. Biological factors play no part in whether or not a person can be a priest (at least not stated in the Bible; Jesus never proclaims that one must have an Adam’s Apple to be a priest), like they do with things like childbirth or being a mother.

 

[ibetrippin07]

People aren’t created priests, and the Church doesn’t say that they are.

this is not true in that all men are called to be priests and ambassadors of Christ
furthermore we are all of equal value. In otherwords we are equal in the sense that God is willing to offer salvation to all of us at any moment in our lifetime

 

[Awful_Things]

Depends on what one defines as equal.

Since, as Christians, we should view all through the lens of our theology, then yes and no.

Yes, in that we are all created equally undeserving of Heaven.

No, in the sense that God does not love all of us equally nor distribute grace equally, and as he has known us since before conception and knows how much grace each of us will receive through our lives, we are not created equally with regard to his favor.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I am going to go against the flow and be a contrarian for the sake of discussion.

Luke 1:42 “Blessed are thou [Mary] among women”.
Mary is created above all women including Eve and according to Catholic Dogma is sinless and created higher and decidedly unequal to all other men AND women.

Luke 7:28
I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

Sounds like John the Baptist was born greater than other men too.

Conclusion - all men are not created equal nor identical.

Ergo the popular secular jingoism of holding back all people to a least common denominator standard of excellence where “one size fits all” is as atrocious a sin as was ever committed against the cruel standards practised in Sodom and Gomorrah. A deeper read of the theology in this area shows that unwelcome visitors (usually poor people seeking employment) were made to sleep in a bed of a standard size. If they were too short they were stretched to fit. If they were to long, they were cut down to size. Sound familiar?

James

 

[seekerz]

Depends on what one defines as equal.

Since, as Christians, we should view all through the lens of our theology, then yes and no.

Yes, in that we are all created equally undeserving of Heaven.

No, in the sense that God does not love all of us equally nor distribute grace equally, and as he has known us since before conception and knows how much grace each of us will receive through our lives, we are not created equally with regard to his favor.

How do you come to the conclusion that God does not love all people equally?

 

[seekerz]

I am going to go against the flow and be a contrarian for the sake of discussion.

Luke 1:42 “Blessed are thou [Mary] among women”.
Mary is created above all women including Eve and according to Catholic Dogma is sinless and created higher and decidedly unequal to all other men AND women.

Luke 7:28
I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

Sounds like John the Baptist was born greater than other men too.

Conclusion - all men are not created equal nor identical.

Ergo the popular secular jingoism of holding back all people to a least common denominator standard of excellence where “one size fits all” is as atrocious a sin as was ever committed against the cruel standards practised in Sodom and Gomorrah. A deeper read of the theology in this area shows that unwelcome visitors (usually poor people seeking employment) were made to sleep in a bed of a standard size. If they were too short they were stretched to fit. If they were to long, they were cut down to size. Sound familiar?

James

In my understanding of the term equal as applied to human beings, the verses of scripture you quoted do not disprove our equality, unless you equate equality to sameness.

No we are not all the same, yes some are greater than others in the kingdom of heaven and certainly here on earth by virtue of God’s grace, their own faith, talents, social position, education etc. My understanding of equality is that just as we are all human despite those differences, we are also all equal.

I share the criticisms you have with regard to the cookie cutter “equality” some authorities try to impose. They (wrongly, I believe) think that for people to be equal they all have to possess the same things and act and think the same way. The correct definition for that, is actually monotony.