Are all men created equal?

  • Thread starter Thread starter seekerz
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
How do you come to the conclusion that God does not love all people equally?
First, no evidence points to the contrary. While people might like to assume he loves us all equally, no public revelation (of which I am aware) provides evidence for this.

But to take it a step further, God’s will is the cause of goodness in things. If one man is better than another, it must therefore be because of God’s will. And to will something good is to love it. So, God loves more the better people.

Here is Aquinas writing on the subject of whether God loves all equally:
Objection 1. It seems that God loves all things equally. For it is said: “He hath equally care of all” (Wisdom 6:8). But God’s providence over things comes from the love wherewith He loves them. Therefore He loves all things equally.
Objection 2. Further, the love of God is His essence. But God’s essence does not admit of degree; neither therefore does His love. He does not therefore love some things more than others.
Objection 3. Further, as God’s love extends to created things, so do His knowledge and will extend. But God is not said to know some things more than others; nor will one thing more than another. Neither therefore does He love some things more than others.
On the contrary, Augustine says (Tract. in Joan. cx): “God loves all things that He has made, and amongst them rational creatures more, and of these especially those who are members of His only-begotten Son Himself.”
I answer that, Since to love a thing is to will it good, in a twofold way anything may be loved more, or less. In one way on the part of the act of the will itself, which is more or less intense. In this way God does not love some things more than others, because He loves all things by an act of the will that is one, simple, and always the same. In another way on the part of the good itself that a person wills for the beloved. In this way we are said to love that one more than another, for whom we will a greater good, though our will is not more intense. In this way we must needs say that God loves some things more than others. For since God’s love is the cause of goodness in things, as has been said (2),** no one thing would be better than another, if God did not will greater good for one than for another. **
Reply to Objection 1. God is said to have equally care of all, not because by His care He deals out equal good to all, but because He administers all things with a like wisdom and goodness.
Reply to Objection 2. This argument is based on the intensity of love on the part of the act of the will, which is the divine essence. But the good that God wills for His creatures, is not the divine essence. Therefore there is no reason why it may not vary in degree.
Reply to Objection 3. To understand and to will denote the act alone, and do not include in their meaning objects from the diversity of which God may be said to know or will more or less, as has been said with respect to God’s love.
 
It’s fairly obvious from our discussion that we are treating equality in Aquinas’s first sense, in which God loves all equally by a single and unified will. As far as revelation goes, God so loves the world (entirely) that whosoever (anyone) may have eternal life.
 
First, no evidence points to the contrary. While people might like to assume he loves us all equally, no public revelation (of which I am aware) provides evidence for this.

But to take it a step further, God’s will is the cause of goodness in things. If one man is better than another, it must therefore be because of God’s will. And to will something good is to love it. So, God loves more the better people.
Christ gave Himself fully on the cross for each one of us, what more public revelation do we need than that, that He loves us all the same? He didn’t shed more blood for the “good” people. Besides, consider the parable of the laborers, they each got the same wages regardless of the time spent working. What else but an equal love explains why God would repay varying degrees of effort with the same reward?
Here is Aquinas writing on the subject of whether God loves all equally
I’m no Aquinas, but I see no definitive evidence from the writings you have quoted to prove inequality of God’s love.

To me, equal love goes hand in hand with that basic attribute of God we describe as justice.

As a parent, in my own limited human experience, I can fully understand why one child would receive more help/gifts/opportunity than another because their needs would vary with their personalities, inclinations and interests. Since God created each person different, it stands to reason that some people receive/seem to receive more from Him than others. The perceived differences may also stem from us making varying degrees of use of what we receive from God. Again, I keep coming back to the point that sameness/difference does not equal equality/lack of equality. Having a bigger house or a more generous heart than my neighbor does not make me “more equal” than him.

To me the whole idea of some people being intrinsically “better” than others is dubious. I believe this whole idea of “betterness” (allow me to coin a word here) is what Jesus was deliberately taking a stand against when He repeatedly chose to associate with those considered the dregs of society. Otherwise we’d have to conclude that He loved the poor/sinners more 😉

People certainly respond differently to God’s grace and so live better lives but whether that makes one intrinsically better than another is for God to judge since He is the only one who sees past outward appearances. Therefore, from a human standpoint, I find it hard to see how one person can be described as better than another.
 
It’s fairly obvious from our discussion that we are treating equality in Aquinas’s first sense, in which God loves all equally by a single and unified will. As far as revelation goes, God so loves the world (entirely) that whosoever (anyone) may have eternal life.
What do you mean by “Aquina’s first sense”. Can you quote that part? Also, while God desires that we all have eternal life, not all of us are given the efficacious grace to do so. And that grace comes from God.
 
Christ gave Himself fully on the cross for each one of us, what more public revelation do we need than that, that He loves us all the same?
It is Catholic teaching that we all receive sufficient grace from Christ’s death on the cross, but only some of us receive efficacious grace. Love, for God, is an act of the will. That some of us would be willed a more effective grace than others is an indication of degree.
He didn’t shed more blood for the “good” people.
Never said he did, but it is Catholic doctrine that “good” people receive more of his grace. Unless you are implying they are good by their own merit?
Besides, consider the parable of the laborers, they each got the same wages regardless of the time spent working. What else but an equal love explains why God would repay varying degrees of effort with the same reward?
The parable of the laborers reflects those who end up in Heaven. What about those who will ultimately end up in Hell? If I am to take your logic at face value here, is that not proof of an unequal love?
I’m no Aquinas, but I see no definitive evidence from the writings you have quoted to prove inequality of God’s love.
I don’t know what you mean by “definitive evidence”, but if you care to pick apart Aquinas’s logic, be my guest.
To me, equal love goes hand in hand with that basic attribute of God we describe as justice.
Depends on your definition of justice. Another definition (the one that seems to allow for Hell) defines justice as the rightful consequence for ones actions, not an equal distribution of love. And since are actions, those that involve supernatural good, are caused by God’s grace, and grace is an action of God’s love, than an unequal distribution of God’s graces comes from an unequal love.
As a parent, in my own limited human experience, I can fully understand why one child would receive more help/gifts/opportunity than another because their needs would vary with their personalities, inclinations and interests. Since God created each person different, it stands to reason that some people receive/seem to receive more from Him than others. The perceived differences may also stem from us making varying degrees of use of what we receive from God.
The perceived difference may also stem from taking the doctrine of predestination (which has nothing to do with your analogy of a human parent) from the discussion. It is predetermined, before our births, as to whether we will receive efficacious grace or not. Some believe that it is (loosely put) God’s response to how he knows we will respond to his grace and others believe it is based on something we have no concept of with our limited understanding (though with no bearing on our own merits). In either case, those who are predestined are given graces that efficaciously lead them to Heaven. Some are not (though they are given sufficient graces).

However, with only sufficient graces, none of us choose Heaven.

With that in mind, the distribution reflects an unequal distribution of love. Whether or not that is based on God’s foreknowledge of our acceptance of his will is beside my point.
Again, I keep coming back to the point that sameness/difference does not equal equality/lack of equality. Having a bigger house or a more generous heart than my neighbor does not make me “more equal” than him.
Depends on our definition of equality. I set the foundation for mine in my first post. If you are coming from a different premise, then we’re talking apples and oranges. For instance, if you are coming from the premise that we are all equally deserving of Hell and equally grateful to Christ for opening Heaven for us on the cross, then (as I mentioned in my original post), we are all equal.
To me the whole idea of some people being intrinsically “better” than others is dubious. I believe this whole idea of “betterness” (allow me to coin a word here) is what Jesus was deliberately taking a stand against when He repeatedly chose to associate with those considered the dregs of society. Otherwise we’d have to conclude that He loved the poor/sinners more 😉
Depends on your definition of “better”. Again, I never said “betterness” meant one’s status in society, so to use that example is a straw man and is putting words in my mouth to make me look arrogant. This is certainly not the case because I am a) not wealthy, b) a sinner, and c) quite possibly a candidate for damnation should I fall from grace at some point in my life.

I defined being better as having obtained eternal glory in Heaven. Many poor and repentant sinners will do so. I have no argument there.
People certainly respond differently to God’s grace and so live better lives but whether that makes one intrinsically better than another is for God to judge since He is the only one who sees past outward appearances. Therefore, from a human standpoint, I find it hard to see how one person can be described as better than another.
Again, you are using a loose definition of grace that ignores the different types of grace that the Church defines different individuals as receiving. If you won’t include those in your discussion (or a response to the concept of this unequal distribution), then I can’t help it if we disagree.

From Aquinas’s exploration of whether God loves more the better things:
The penitent and the innocent are related as exceeding and exceeded. For whether innocent or penitent, those are the better and better loved who have most grace.
 
We are getting into the Calvinist-Arminian debate here about Irresistible Grace
Irresistible Grace - from Wikipedia:
In the Catholic Church, debates concerning the respective role of efficacious grace and free will led to the establishment of the Congregatio de Auxiliis at the end of the 16th century by the Pope Clement VIII. The Dominicans insisted on the role of the efficacious grace, but the Jesuits embraced Molinism, which postulated greater liberty in the will. These debates also led to the famous formulary controversy in France which pitted the Jansenists against the Jesuits.

The doctrine is one of the so-called Five points of Calvinism that were defined at the Synod of Dordrecht during the Quinquarticular Controversy with the Arminian Remonstrants, who objected to the general predestinarian scheme of Calvinism. In Calvinist churches, the doctrine is most often mentioned in comparisons with other salvific schemes and their respective doctrines about the state of mankind after the Fall, and it is not a common topic for sermons or studies otherwise.
James
 
We are getting into the Calvinist-Arminian debate here about Irresistible Grace
James
As Catholics, irresistible grace isn’t really part of our theology, but efficacious grace is. They are very, very similar, but the distinction is important with regard to free will.

However, I’m not interested in that debate except in so far as it impacts the concept that different types of grace are distributed and done so unequally.
 
As Catholics, irresistible grace isn’t really part of our theology, but efficacious grace is. They are very, very similar, but the distinction is important with regard to free will.

However, I’m not interested in that debate except in so far as it impacts the concept that different types of grace are distributed and done so unequally.
I am learning something here. I have always been curious about the different kinds of graces that God gives and wondered if there is a developed taxonomy and official Catholic teaching in this area. I would love to see a new discussion topic started to discuss the kinds of graces and the attributes and actions of grace. Its a subtle area of our theology that is not really taught to the general laity. Generally I think most of us tend to think of grace as a composite catch-all term for “all the good things” that God does for us through Love but it remains largely a mystery as to what its essence is.

Relative to this discussion I think we need to reconcile the scriptural verse that mentions “The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; **but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.” **(Romans 5:20) 😉

There seems to be a principal where God floods increasingly more grace on sinners to compel them to repent. This may me related to another principal of “economy of grace” where God gives a particular kind of grace that is sufficient for our salvation but no more. But in the elect he may give another kind of grace (or is it “gifts” of the Holy Spirit?) to make this person become an instrument of his will (various charisms like healing, persuasion, prophecy etc.). I don’t have a well developed inner perspective on grace. Thoughts?

James
 
We are equal in our capacity for rational thought. That capacity should lead us to belief in Jesus Christ. When it fails to do so, we are no longer ‘equal’. Non-believers are not equal to believers. Having just returned from a trip to an environment of non-believers whom I care about deeply, I’m more convinced than ever that those who have rejected Christ are hopelessly lost.
 
We are all created equal in dignity and personhood. No person’s life has more value over another, even though, in our society today, and probably over the centuries…man has looked at what others do for a living, as a means of comparing the value of a human being…or the amount of money one has.

But, God created human beings to be equal in dignity and personhood. Our characterstics stemming from gender, personalities, genetics, might cause us to have ***different accomplishments ***in the world…but, we are still equal in dignity and respect.
 
We are equal in our capacity for rational thought. That capacity should lead us to belief in Jesus Christ. When it fails to do so, we are no longer ‘equal’. Non-believers are not equal to believers. Having just returned from a trip to an environment of non-believers whom I care about deeply, I’m more convinced than ever that those who have rejected Christ are hopelessly lost.
I can’t fully agree with this King. Not all are born with the equal capacity for rational thought. We have mentally handicapped persons who are every bit as capable of being saved and often are quite saintly in contrast to the more rational. Also, those that reject Christ, while being irrational, are still able to come to their senses and be saved through the intercession of others.

The best salvation strategy for a non-Catholic is to make friends with a Catholic since we can make powerful intercessions that may bring them back.

James
 
I can’t fully agree with this King. Not all are born with the equal capacity for rational thought. We have mentally handicapped persons who are every bit as capable of being saved and often are quite saintly in contrast to the more rational. Also, those that reject Christ, while being irrational, are still able to come to their senses and be saved through the intercession of others.

The best salvation strategy for a non-Catholic is to make friends with a Catholic since we can make powerful intercessions that may bring them back.

James
the best ‘salvation strategy?’ :confused: I think Jesus’ death on the cross was The Strategy. Kind of confused by what you mean here.
 
the best ‘salvation strategy?’ :confused: I think Jesus’ death on the cross was The Strategy. Kind of confused by what you mean here.
Jesus’ death on the cross was the biggest part of a total strategy. But the cross itself does not save. It was the sacrifice on the cross that made it possible for God to forgive us our sins and gain heaven. But nothing is automatic. The grand strategy is to use The Church - the people of God to spread the word and teach. Jesus was the one who formulated the strategy. The key aspects are spreading the Gospel, baptising people into the church and forgivness of sins, and supporting a community of believers. Jesus knew people would still fall away and sin. So he gave us through the Church the means to repent, and maintain grace through the sacraments. Is is also the means by which we know who are not in communion and part of us.

Also, by making his Catholic Church a holy people and a royal priesthood we each in grace have the capacity and the charitable mandate to pray for those who are not in the church to bring them into salvation though our direct intercessions. How that all relates to my comment is that those that reject The Catholic Church are in a highly deficient faith and can not normally access the full graces that Catholics can. Since Jesus has told us those that reject His Church and His earthly leadership reject Him we can assume that salvation is extremely tenuous for non-catholics who have consciously rejected the Church. So I am making a subtle tongue and cheek observation that if non-Catholics reject The Catholic Church and true apostolic teaching a good Catholic friend may be their next best way of gaining salvation through intercessions. That’s all.

James
 
Jesus’ death on the cross was the biggest part of a total strategy. But the cross itself does not save. It was the sacrifice on the cross that made it possible for God to forgive us our sins and gain heaven. But nothing is automatic. The grand strategy is to use The Church - the people of God to spread the word and teach. Jesus was the one who formulated the strategy. The key aspects are spreading the Gospel, baptising people into the church and forgivness of sins, and supporting a community of believers. Jesus knew people would still fall away and sin. So he gave us through the Church the means to repent, and maintain grace through the sacraments. Is is also the means by which we know who are not in communion and part of us.

Also, by making his Catholic Church a holy people and a royal priesthood we each in grace have the capacity and the charitable mandate to pray for those who are not in the church to bring them into salvation though our direct intercessions. How that all relates to my comment is that those that reject The Catholic Church are in a highly deficient faith and can not normally access the full graces that Catholics can. Since Jesus has told us those that reject His Church and His earthly leadership reject Him we can assume that salvation is extremely tenuous for non-catholics who have consciously rejected the Church. So I am making a subtle tongue and cheek observation that if non-Catholics reject The Catholic Church and true apostolic teaching a good Catholic friend may be their next best way of gaining salvation through intercessions. That’s all.

James
Oooookay–very good! lol I wasn’t getting the full picture…thanks for your post.

While I believe that the fullness of faith and all its Sacraments exist wholeheartedly with The Catholic Church, I don’t believe that one is only saved if he/she is Catholic. We can speculate, but we are limited to knowing the awesome mercy of our Father. He alone makes the decision. We are conduits, I agree, in helping to lead souls to God…but, our intercessions, while blessings in and of themselves, cannot undo a person’s free will to not choose to follow God. We can pray for our fellow sinners, and ask Mary and saints to pray with us for others…but, unless one repents him/herself…salvation can be lost. (again, I don’t like discussing who might end up in hell, as our human minds can’t comprehand the unfathomable mercy of our Lord)

But, the title of this thread really has nothing to do with salvation…it has to do with God’s creating men and women…‘equally.’ So, maybe another thread would be better for our specific remarks.🙂

That being said–no one is entitled to salvation. We are unworthy of it – all of us. But, we are called to repent…equally. We are called to follow God–equally. Because I am Catholic, doesn’t make someone who isn’t…unequal…in God’s eyes. So, maybe salvation can be a part of this discussion. lol
 
Oooookay–very good! lol I wasn’t getting the full picture…thanks for your post.

While I believe that the fullness of faith and all its Sacraments exist wholeheartedly with The Catholic Church, I don’t believe that one is only saved if he/she is Catholic. We can speculate, but we are limited to knowing the awesome mercy of our Father. He alone makes the decision. We are conduits, I agree, in helping to lead souls to God…but, our intercessions, while blessings in and of themselves, cannot undo a person’s free will to not choose to follow God. We can pray for our fellow sinners, and ask Mary and saints to pray with us for others…but, unless one repents him/herself…salvation can be lost. (again, I don’t like discussing who might end up in hell, as our human minds can’t comprehand the unfathomable mercy of our Lord)

But, the title of this thread really has nothing to do with salvation…it has to do with God’s creating men and women…‘equally.’ So, maybe another thread would be better for our specific remarks.🙂

That being said–no one is entitled to salvation. We are unworthy of it – all of us. But, we are called to repent…equally. We are called to follow God–equally. Because I am Catholic, doesn’t make someone who isn’t…unequal…in God’s eyes. So, maybe salvation can be a part of this discussion. lol
Sure, salvation can be part of the discussion and since the opportunity for salvation is given to all, it’s pretty clear to me that God not only created us all equal, but loves us equally (harking back to an earlier discussion on this thread)

What we do with His gift to us is a function of our free wills but even sin does not make someone less equal than another in my view, because innate equality is part and parcel of being created human.
 
As a child, St. Therese once asked her sister Pauline how it is that God gives some people a large measure of grace and others a small one. Pauline filled a large bowl and a thimble with water and showed Therese that both were full to the brim.

The question continued to occupy Therese‘s mind, however, and the concept of „big saints“ and „little saints“ became one of the ideas most central to her thinking. Quoting 14th century mystic John Tauler (sorry, I can‘t find the reference), she points out that grace is given through individuals to the whole Body of Christ. To love and appreciate the grace given to another is to participate in it - to the extent that you love it, it is as much yours as it belongs to the saint on whom God bestowed it.
 
I can’t fully agree with this King. Not all are born with the equal capacity for rational thought. We have mentally handicapped persons who are every bit as capable of being saved and often are quite saintly in contrast to the more rational. Also, those that reject Christ, while being irrational, are still able to come to their senses and be saved through the intercession of others.

The best salvation strategy for a non-Catholic is to make friends with a Catholic since we can make powerful intercessions that may bring them back.

James
So true. So true. I suppose I’m referring to the willful non-believers.
 
Sure, salvation can be part of the discussion and since the opportunity for salvation is given to all, it’s pretty clear to me that God not only created us all equal, but loves us equally (harking back to an earlier discussion on this thread)

What we do with His gift to us is a function of our free wills but even sin does not make someone less equal than another in my view, because innate equality is part and parcel of being created human.
yep, agree with you
 
As a child, St. Therese once asked her sister Pauline how it is that God gives some people a large measure of grace and others a small one. Pauline filled a large bowl and a thimble with water and showed Therese that both were full to the brim.

The question continued to occupy Therese‘s mind, however, and the concept of „big saints“ and „little saints“ became one of the ideas most central to her thinking. Quoting 14th century mystic John Tauler (sorry, I can‘t find the reference), she points out that grace is given through individuals to the whole Body of Christ. To love and appreciate the grace given to another is to participate in it - to the extent that you love it, it is as much yours as it belongs to the saint on whom God bestowed it.
I reconcile the different degrees of grace given to different people in many ways: different needs, different personalities etc. Also remembering that to whom much is given much is expected. In the end, nothing we receive is just for ourselves. If I’m given more, it may be just because I’m going to have to give more.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top