Are all other worlds deprived of God?

[Sacred_Heart_1]

I have been thinking lately and pondering this one question:

If God sent his one and only son to earth to die for the sins of man, what would happen to life on other planets?

I believe in this vast universe that there is probably another planet that can and has sustained intelligent life. How could they be aware of God’s presence when Jesus was sent to earth? Are all the other galaxies in the universe forsaken by God? Is it only humans here on earth that are his chosen race or did he send a son to them as well?

Has anyone else ever thought about this?

God’s blessings,
Joshua

To say that there is life (men) on other worlds deprived of God makes God a liar because then he wouldn’t be interested in the salvation of all souls.

To say that there is life on other worlds and that Jesus visits them all makes God a liar because Abraham is his chosen and Israel is his chosen and Jerusalem is the holy city.

Therefore, it is most certain when compared to the faith of the scriptures that life does not exist on other worlds throughout this universe; otherwise, God would be a liar.

 

[StAnastasia]

To say that there is life (men) on other worlds deprived of God makes God a liar because then he wouldn’t be interested in the salvation of all souls.

Not true. While extraterrestrial intelligent life would not be human since it does not share our evolutionary history, there is no reason to suppose that there is not on a few planets around some of the hundred billion hundred billion stars there intelligent life that worships God.

To say that there is life on other worlds and that Jesus visits them all makes God a liar because Abraham is his chosen and Israel is his chosen and Jerusalem is the holy city.

False. Nowhere does the Bible assert that the choosing of Abrahan and Jerusalem applies outside Earth.

Therefore, it is most certain when compared to the faith of the scriptures that life does not exist on other worlds throughout this universe; otherwise, God would be a liar.

Your conclusion is groundless.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Tony, the problem remains how a normal parent with normal feelings can be perfectly happy in heaven while knowing that her little one is boiling in oil (or whatever imaginative metaphor you prefer). I see no coherent argument for how a parent could be perfectly and eternally happy unless the memory of her now tortured little child is completely expunged. If you tell me that God would expunge the memory of that child, I might agree to your #17.

See you online on Monday (I’m off to the mountains).

StAnastasia

I thought about you and what you wrote this weekend. I love horror stories, especially anthologies. I was reading one of those stories (I can’t remember the title) and it mentioned a scroll or something found in Egypt that described the removing of memory from two humans who had come down from heaven to live on earth.

I thought about you again and not that long ago. I was talking to a friend on the phone and she told me that omniscience doesn’t necessarily mean having access to all knowledge just as we don’t have access to everything that is stored in our brains (at least not all the time) and that Jesus emptied Himself of part of His knowledge.

Of course the first is fiction, as far as I know. But the second? I had never heard of Jesus not having access to His omniscience. I have no idea how my friend came up with this idea, if it is Church teaching or just possibly true.

But it showed me that I surely do not understand one millionth of what has been going on and my dismissal of your concepts was foolish and rude. I apologize.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Edit to above post: I’m sorry; I worded part of my post poorly. I didn’t mean to say that Jesus did not have access to His omniscience but that He did not have access to some of His knowledge, if what I was told is true. He is eternally omniscient.

 

[StAnastasia]

I thought about you and what you wrote this weekend. I love horror stories, especially anthologies. I was reading one of those stories (I can’t remember the title) and it mentioned a scroll or something found in Egypt that described the removing of memory from two humans who had come down from heaven to live on earth…But it showed me that I surely do not understand one millionth of what has been going on and my dismissal of your concepts was foolish and rude. I apologize.

Thanks, LittleSoldier. I suppose it would be possible for God to wipe clean a person’s memory of ever having given birth to a child who is now boiling in oil. But as long as the memory is there, perfect eternal happiness is not possible. If it were, the person in heaven could truly be said to be a monster, enjoying eternity while her child boils away.

 

[Luvtosew]

** In any case, it’s a moot point as far as I’m concerned. I would rather spend eternity in the imagined “lake of fire” than five minutes in the presence of a God who would create a hideous system in which (in St. Thomas words) "The saints rejoice in the accomplishment of God’s justice, and to this extent it can be said that they joy in the pains of the damned. "**

Me too,

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

If we accept the Bible as true, it seems unlikely to me that there is other intelligent life (a.k.a. another creation in God’s image) out there for one big reason: The Fall.

If other intelligent life existed at the time of creation, did they have sin and death? Creation groans under our sin (Rom 8). It would seem out of place (at least to me) to have another creation in God’s image be subject to our sin and disobedience.

 

[StAnastasia]

If we accept the Bible as true, it seems unlikely to me that there is other intelligent life (a.k.a. another creation in God’s image) out there for one big reason: The Fall.

The above is non sequitur.

If other intelligent life existed at the time of creation, did they have sin and death? Creation groans under our sin (Rom 8). It would seem out of place (at least to me) to have another creation in God’s image be subject to our sin and disobedience.

No life existed at the time of creation, 13.7 billion years ago. Life did not exist on earth until 3.5 billion years ago, and it may well have come to exist earlier on some other planets around some of the hundred billion stars in the hundred billion galaxies.

There is no theological reason at all why life in God’s image does not exist elsewhere in the universe, or why that life should not be subject to original sin and the need for God’s redemption.

 

[reggieM]

** In any case, it’s a moot point as far as I’m concerned. I would rather spend eternity in the imagined “lake of fire” than five minutes in the presence of a God who would create a hideous system in which (in St. Thomas words) "The saints rejoice in the accomplishment of God’s justice, and to this extent it can be said that they joy in the pains of the damned. "**

Me too,

Could you explain that more?

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

The above is non sequitur.

No life existed at the time of creation, 13.7 billion years ago. Life did not exist on earth until 3.5 billion years ago, and it may well have come to exist earlier on some other planets around some of the hundred billion stars in the hundred billion galaxies.

There is no theological reason at all why life in God’s image does not exist elsewhere in the universe, or why that life should not be subject to original sin and the need for God’s redemption.

The length of creation is irrelevant.

If you believe the Garden story is a parable/myth, then you would see it as a non sequitur because the Fall then does not exist as an event but an idea. But if you believe the Garden story to be a historical event, regardless whether creation is 7 days or 13-14 billion years, then my point still stands. Did this intelligent alien life created in the image of God live sinless and deathless before the Fall? Were they then subjected to sin and death after the fall?

Jesus has already ascended in his glorified form to Heaven, after his atoning death on Earth. He also plans to return to Earth to destroy evil and death, at which point a new heaven and new Earth are created with a new Jerusalem at its center. All of that would seem rather theologically awkward to me in the context of intelligent life existing elsewhere.

Just my two cents, though.

 

[StAnastasia]

The length of creation is irrelevant.

To the contrary, it is quite relevant,

If you believe the Garden story is a parable/myth, then you would see it as a non sequitur because the Fall then does not exist as an event but an idea.

False. Even if the “Fall” did not happen as mythologically recorded in Genesis 3, all humans are fallen creatures by the very fact that we recognize we are not God, and yet that we attempt to make ourselves like God.

Did this intelligent alien life created in the image of God live sinless and deathless before the Fall? Were they then subjected to sin and death after the fall?

Alien intelligent life is quite likely similar to us in the sense of possessing free will, moral responsibility, and spiritual consciousness. They too would have become subject to sin after their own version of “the Fall.” Death, of course, existed for billions of years before “Adam” and “Eve” lived.

Jesus has already ascended in his glorified form to Heaven, after his atoning death on Earth. He also plans to return to Earth to destroy evil and death, at which point a new heaven and new Earth are created with a new Jerusalem at its center. All of that would seem rather theologically awkward to me in the context of intelligent life existing elsewhere.

Not awkward at all. The evolutionary trajectory of life through the universe will be on a different timetable. There may well be life evolving now that has not yet reached the stage of rationality and moral consciousness, and may not reach it for a billion years. The earth is not the yardstick of the universe, except in the mythological imagination.

 

[tonyrey]

If you believe the Garden story is a parable/myth, then you would see it as a non sequitur because the Fall then does not exist as an event but an idea.

The parable of the Garden communicates the truth that our ancestors chose to be evil, a choice which has devastated the lives of their descendants. Arthur Koestler believed there is a streak of insanity in the human race but he was mistaken. All evil is a form of insanity but it is not genetic. It is the result of selfishness and lack of love for others which have become more prevalent in a world where there is fear and suspicion instead of trust and friendship. The seeds of hostility and violence were sown at a specific point in time and have poisoned our mental outlook to such an extent that bloodshed and murder have dominated the history of our race. We have become the victims of the sins of our predecessors but we in turn have perpetuated the cycle of evil because of our ignorance and weakness. Our culpability is mitigated by our misfortune but we are not entirely innocent. We cannot blame everything on original sin…

Did this intelligent alien life created in the image of God live sinless and deathless before the Fall? Were they then subjected to sin and death after the fall?

It is impossible to know for certain but it seems extremely unlikely that none of them would ever have given way to temptation and have no need of redemption…

Jesus has already ascended in his glorified form to Heaven, after his atoning death on Earth. He also plans to return to Earth to destroy evil and death, at which point a new heaven and new Earth are created with a new Jerusalem at its center. All of that would seem rather theologically awkward to me in the context of intelligent life existing elsewhere.

It is only awkward if we interpret the Bible literally.

 

[StAnastasia]

It is impossible to know for certain but it seems extremely unlikely that none of them would ever have given way to temptation and have no need of redemption.

Tony, we inhabit a dynamic and open universe, whose life-giving potential has unfolded over billions of years. When life emerges on a planet, as it did on Earth, it appears to evolve steadily until it fills every conceivable niche. Morbidity and senescence are structural features of life, and when predation and competition for the planet’s finite resources are factored in, and understood by rational creatures, what results is an awareness of sin. I could only imagine a species being sinless if they inhabited an ecosystem with no resource limits, no suffering, and no death. But that would be entirely unlike Earth.

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

To the contrary, it is quite relevant,

OK. How so?

False. Even if the “Fall” did not happen as mythologically recorded in Genesis 3, all humans are fallen creatures by the very fact that we recognize we are not God, and yet that we attempt to make ourselves like God.

Hence, it would not be an event but an idea.

Alien intelligent life is quite likely similar to us in the sense of possessing free will, moral responsibility, and spiritual consciousness. They too would have become subject to sin after their own version of “the Fall.”

God had called His creation “good” before the Fall/Curse and in Romans 8, it says that all of creation groans due to this curse. That follows that there is a single curse that affects all of creation and not multiple curses that affect parts of creation.

Death, of course, existed for billions of years before “Adam” and “Eve” lived.

Again, if God called his creation “good” before the Fall, how could there be death before it? Does God create death? Is death “good”? This is why I find it to be theologically awkward.

Not awkward at all. The evolutionary trajectory of life through the universe will be on a different timetable. There may well be life evolving now that has not yet reached the stage of rationality and moral consciousness, and may not reach it for a billion years. The earth is not the yardstick of the universe, except in the mythological imagination.

Well, you’ll pardon me if I happen to believe that the God powerful enough to create the universe and everything in it could do so in less than 13billion years without evolution exactly as He describes.

While that is my belief and I disagree with you, I will not belittle your beliefs by labeling them as being imagined. I’d appreciate the same courtesy.

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

…It is only awkward if we interpret the Bible literally.

Ha! I get ya, but that’s an awful lot of the Biblical narrative that we’re discounting…

Creation
Fall
Messianic Atonement
Redemption

That would be 3 of those 4 main parts of the Bible story.

 

[StAnastasia]

God had called His creation “good” before the Fall/Curse and in Romans 8, it says that all of creation groans due to this curse. That follows that there is a single curse that affects all of creation and not multiple curses that affect parts of creation.

False. God’s creation is good. A dynamic cosmos involves creation and loss, pleasure and pain, life and death. Death began with the first life, 3.5 billion years ago.

Again, if God called his creation “good” before the Fall, how could there be death before it? Does God create death? Is death “good”? This is why I find it to be theologically awkward.

God created a dynamic and evolving universe, the laws of which inevitably lead to conflict. Long before humans evolved, hundreds of millions of years ago rattlesnakes had evolved that killed their prey with poison dispensed from fangs. Their prey had in parallel developed nervous systems that were affected by the poisonous bite. While it is not a moral issue for a rattlesnake to kill and swallow a baby rabbit, it undoubtedly was painful.

Well, you’ll pardon me if I happen to believe that the God powerful enough to create the universe and everything in it could do so in less than 13billion years without evolution exactly as He describes.

We know the universe is 13.7 billion years old, and the earth and solar system are 4.5 billion years old, and life has been on earth for 3.5 billion years.

While that is my belief and I disagree with you, I will not belittle your beliefs by labeling them as being imagined. I’d appreciate the same courtesy.

I am not belittling any belief (except such beliefs as the one that vaccinations cause autism).

 

[StAnastasia]

Ha! I get ya, but that’s an awful lot of the Biblical narrative that we’re discounting…
Creation
Fall
Messianic Atonement
Redemption
That would be 3 of those 4 main parts of the Bible story.

Allegorical interpretation does not at all dispense with these.

 

[FaithfulAndTrue]

False. God’s creation is good. A dynamic cosmos involves creation and loss, pleasure and pain, life and death. Death began with the first life, 3.5 billion years ago.

God created a dynamic and evolving universe, the laws of which inevitably lead to conflict. Long before humans evolved, hundreds of millions of years ago rattlesnakes had evolved that killed their prey with poison dispensed from fangs. Their prey had in parallel developed nervous systems that were affected by the poisonous bite. While it is not a moral issue for a rattlesnake to kill and swallow a baby rabbit, it undoubtedly was painful.

We know the universe is 13.7 billion years old, and the earth and solar system are 4.5 billion years old, and life has been on earth for 3.5 billion years.

I am not belittling any belief (except such beliefs as the one that vaccinations cause autism).

Clearly, we have far different, for lack of a better term, world views.

 

[StAnastasia]

Clearly, we have far different, for lack of a better term, world views.

I suspected as much. I’m a Catholic theologian working with scientists and teaching university and seminary students. That will do a number one one’s world view!

 

[LittleSoldier]

If we accept the Bible as true, it seems unlikely to me that there is other intelligent life (a.k.a. another creation in God’s image) out there for one big reason: The Fall.

If other intelligent life existed at the time of creation, did they have sin and death? Creation groans under our sin (Rom 8). It would seem out of place (at least to me) to have another creation in God’s image be subject to our sin and disobedience.

Weren’t Adam and Eve in Eden before Original Sin? Maybe on some other planets God created beings that didn’t commit that sin and have been existing in their Eden for millenia, never having sinned and never dying.

Well, probably not but I think there is a small chance when thinking about the number of planets in the universe.