Are all other worlds deprived of God?

[inocente]

Physical torment would require a mechanism – nervous system? Fire? Ice? Pitchforks? Rack or iron maiden? Thumbscrews? Bamboo shoots?

Cheery stuff!

I think hell is a dark lonely isolation, a gray nothingness of a place within us which Jesus discovered in himself on the cross, which completed His knowledge of what it is to be human, and His sacrifice.

*My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest. – Psalm 22

Our nada who art in nada, nada be thy name thy kingdom nada thy will be nada in nada as it is in nada. Give us this nada our daily nada and nada us our nada as we nada our nadas and nada us not into nada but deliver us from nada; pues nada. Hail nothing full of nothing, nothing is with thee.- Hemingway*

I can do cheery too!

 

[grannymh]

Psalm 22 continued

1. For he has not spurned nor disdained
   the wretched man in his misery,
   Nor did he turn his face away from him,
   but when he cried out to him, he heard him.
2. Let the coming generation be told of the Lord
3. that they may proclaim to a people
   yet to be born
   the justice he has shown.

 

[empther]

The emphasis on physical pain in hell is the wrong emphasis. The real pain in hell is spritiual.

Imagine you have lost absolutely everything. All right, I threw you a curve ball. It’s impossible to imagine it because it can’t happen in this world.

But in hell all will be lost. Even a miserable little rock useless on earth would be a priceless treasure in hell, eagerly grasped at by everyone there.

This total loss with no hope is intolerable to the mind which wants to tear itself apart to stop the experience but cannot. Physical pain, if any, is secondary.

 

[StAnastasia]

Imagine you have lost absolutely everything. All right, I threw you a curve ball. It’s impossible to imagine it because it can’t happen in this world. But in hell all will be lost. Even a miserable little rock useless on earth would be a priceless treasure in hell, eagerly grasped at by everyone there.

There still has to be a brain to supply the neural substrate for the thoughts that are the realization that you have lost absolutely everything. And it’s not absolutely – you still have your hands and your brain and your legs, etc.

This total loss with no hope is intolerable to the mind which wants to tear itself apart to stop the experience but cannot. Physical pain, if any, is secondary.

There is always hope.

 

[StAnastasia]

Cheery stuff! I think hell is a dark lonely isolation, a gray nothingness of a place within us which Jesus discovered in himself on the cross, which completed His knowledge of what it is to be human, and His sacrifice.

Inocente, eternal damnation seems incompatible with eternal happiness. As a parent, I could never be perfectly an eternally happy in heaven if I knew that one of my children were eternally in hell. Of course, God could expunge all memory of that child, so that no one remembered that child had ever existed; I suppose then the eternal fun could start.

 

[empther]

There is always hope.

Then there is no hell.
Is that what you’re saying?

 

[grannymh]

There is always hope.

After death?
According to Catholicism, death ends temporal life while eternal life which is spiritual continues until the resurrection of the dead.

Remember the three theological virtues?

In that case, one can check Inocente’s signature.

 

[StAnastasia]

Then there is no hell.
Is that what you’re saying?

I find the traditional concept of hell (as in the Fatima imagination) to be largely incoherent. I suppose there are people would would never want to change, but redemption is always a possibility.

 

[grannymh]

Inocente, eternal damnation seems incompatible with eternal happiness. As a parent, I could never be perfectly an eternally happy in heaven if I knew that one of my children were eternally in hell. Of course, God could expunge all memory of that child, so that no one remembered that child had ever existed;** I suppose then the eternal fun could start**.

Emphasis mine.

suppose

Good thing that Catholicism is definite about eternal life.

God calls each one of us to share in His own life through knowledge and love. Check out paragraph 356 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Emphasis mine.

suppose

Good thing that Catholicism is definite about eternal life.

God calls each one of us to share in His own life through knowledge and love. Check out paragraph 356 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.

Emphasis mine.

fun

For some reason I just can’t imagine heaven as being “fun.” “Fun” is like a ride down the slide at the city park. Heaven is so far beyond that that I don’t even know how to describe it (and of course I really have little idea of what goes on there). But glorifying God is “fun?” No. No. NO!

And although I would be horrified to know that my child is spending eternity in hell, it’s my child’s choice, not mine. I don’t own his body and soul.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Physical torment would require a mechanism – nervous system? Fire? Ice? Pitchforks? Rack or iron maiden? Thumbscrews? Bamboo shoots?

Fire. It’s the exact same fire that causes ecstasy to burn in those in heaven. But in hell that fire is excruciatingly painful. In both places it is psychological, spiritual, and physical, encompassing all.

Bamboo shoots? Yummy! Oh, that’s not what you mean, of course.

 

[StAnastasia]

For some reason I just can’t imagine heaven as being “fun.” “Fun” is like a ride down the slide at the city park. Heaven is so far beyond that that I don’t even know how to describe it (and of course I really have little idea of what goes on there). But glorifying God is “fun?” No. No. NO!

Sure it’s fun. Enjoyable. amusing. God created all those feelings, and they are all good.

And although I would be horrified

 

[StAnastasia]

Fire. It’s the exact same fire that causes ecstasy to burn in those in heaven. But in hell that fire is excruciatingly painful. In both places it is psychological, spiritual, and physical, encompassing all.

It’s interesting that fire has played such a consistent role in the human eschatological imagination.

Bamboo shoots? Yummy! Oh, that’s not what you mean, of course.

 

[LittleSoldier]

It’s interesting that fire has played such a consistent role in the human eschatological imagination.

Why do you use the word “imagination?” You may be correct, though. There may not be a word in any of the world’s past, current, or future languages to correctly describe what it is. It interests me that one force can cause two opposite extremes - one is ecstasy, one is torture (sorry, poor word because the person who goes to hell chooses to go there). I’ve thought about doing it myself once or twice, including today. But someone talked me out of it. If I didn’t have such a bad headache I would thank her again.

I’m thinking of the Southeast Asian torture in which a person is tied to a framework with fast-growing bamboo planted beneath him/her:

“The growth pressure of plants can do an impressive variety of tricks. Bamboo can grow three feet in twenty-four hours, an accomplishment that is capitalized upon, legendarily, in that exquisite Asian torture in which a victim is strapped to a mesh bunk a mere foot above a bed of healthy bamboo plants whose woodlike tips have been sharpened. For the first eight hours he is fine, if jittery; then he starts turning into a colander, by degrees.”

Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek

Gee, I was thinking of getting some Chinese take-out. I don’t feel like it anymore.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Sure it’s fun. Enjoyable. amusing. God created all those feelings, and they are all good.

OK. I agree. Good point. It reminds me of when I was in first grade and we all thought that heaven would be getting an ice cream cone with all the flavors we wanted and it would never fall over and we could eat ice cream all the time.

I didn’t know there was horror in heaven, but I guess there could be.

My apologies; I wasn’t clear but I don’t know how to be more clear. I know we can hurt God so perhaps there is at least some sadness in heaven. I was thinking of a transient post-death, pre-heaven (or, God forbid pre-purgatory) realization that my child had chosen hell. I don’t think that makes sense except in my somewhat addled brain right now.

 

[StAnastasia]

My apologies; I wasn’t clear but I don’t know how to be more clear. I know we can hurt God so perhaps there is at least some sadness in heaven. I was thinking of a transient post-death, pre-heaven (or, God forbid pre-purgatory) realization that my child had chosen hell. I don’t think that makes sense except in my somewhat addled brain right now.

My point is simply that as long as there is one parent who (1) has feelings for her child, and (2) has memories of her child, and (3) knows that her child is suffering eternal torment in hell, complete and perfect happiness does not in heaven.

This could be rectified by God (1) causing the parent to forget the child ever existed, or (2) causing the parent to believe the child is somewhere else in heaven, or (3) causing the parent to believe that eventually the child will be released from hell.

 

[grannymh]

My point is simply that as long as there is one parent who (1) has feelings for her child, and (2) has memories of her child, and (3) knows that her child is suffering eternal torment in hell, complete and perfect happiness does not in heaven.

This sounds to me as if the Catholic Doctrine of the Beatific Vision needs to be relearned.

 

[LittleSoldier]

My point is simply that as long as there is one parent who (1) has feelings for her child, and (2) has memories of her child, and (3) knows that her child is suffering eternal torment in hell, complete and perfect happiness does not in heaven.

This could be rectified by God (1) causing the parent to forget the child ever existed, or (2) causing the parent to believe the child is somewhere else in heaven, or (3) causing the parent to believe that eventually the child will be released from hell.

If you know that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly loving and just, you know that He will right every wrong and make absolutely everything perfect. Our children’s lives don’t belong to us. They belong to God and they are His to do with as He sees fit. He won’t force our children to come to Him or stay with Him for eternity - no more than He would force us or our parents or their parents. We can’t understand this perfectly simply because we aren’t perfect. How can a sinning, fallible creature understand God?

I think what you’re doing is trying to fit God and His heaven into your conceptions as a human being instead of trying to fit your conceptions to God and His heaven. He doesn’t work like we do. Time is not the same - we know He is on eternal time while we are on chronological time. We know this because Jesus’ sacrifice is ongoing and eternal.

It’s really hard to climb out of our boxes and see eternity. It’s probably impossible for most although I think some people can do it a little bit. I know one of those persons.

What I know is that God loves me so much that not only did He create me, keep me safe from the doctor who tried to abort me, keep me safe from that same doctor who tried to sell me, has kept me alive and sent me grace even when I haven’t asked for it, who has shown me a bit of that fiery ecstasy, who has forgiven every stupid sin I have ever committed and will continue to do so…

He allowed Himself to be horribly tortured and murdered. FOR ME.

I trust Him. He died for you, too. You can trust Him. We may not understand Him but there is one thing I am absolutely sure of and that is that we can trust Him. He is my Daddy, my Father, my Brother, my Friend and He is absolutely perfect. He will take care of everything. We don’t need to worry about things like our children being in hell.

I’m not a theologian. I’m a scientist. But when it comes to God I try to be like a child.

I’m very sorry that this is bothering you because I know it can cause pain.

 

[LittleSoldier]

This sounds to me as if the Catholic Doctrine of the Beatific Vision needs to be relearned.

I’ve never heard of this or if I have I’ve forgotten. Gosh, I am so poorly catechized and I can’t have a spiritual director. So when I see things like this I check them out. I wonder how much more there is that I don’t know about.

Thanks. I’ll learn about this.

 

[grannymh]

I’ve never heard of this or if I have I’ve forgotten. Gosh, I am so poorly catechized and I can’t have a spiritual director. So when I see things like this I check them out. I wonder how much more there is that I don’t know about.

Thanks. I’ll learn about this.

Re: Beatific Vision. I was replying to St.Anastasia.

Beatific Vision is a very, very old phrase. It simply means that in Heaven we will see God in person as He really is. Your post 119 talks about God as He really is. So you already know about the Beatific Vision.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

The “Twelve Days of Christmas” are meant to be celebrated.