Are all other worlds deprived of God?

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Addendum to my last post:

AAAAUUUUGGGGHHHHH!!! :eek:

THAT is hard stuff to understand!
 
I think what you’re doing is trying to fit God and His heaven into your conceptions as a human being instead of trying to fit your conceptions to God and His heaven.
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No, don’t tell me what you think I’m trying to do, because you are wrong. Just work with the logic for a bit.

If a parent loves her child, and if that child will be in some sort of “hell” for eternity, one of two things must happen in order for there to be perfect and complete happiness in heaven. Either (1) God must expunge all recollection of that child from the parent’s memory, or (2) God must cause that parent to become utterly indifferent to the fate of the child, such that the memory of that child and the knowledge of its fate is of no consequence. This must be the case, or else the parent would continue to remember and care for the child, and grieve over its eternal fate. This grieving in turn would tarnish perfect eternal happiness.
I’m very sorry that this is bothering you because I know it can cause pain.
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This question does not bother me at all, even though it interests me from a philosophical point of view.
 
StAnastasia said:
No, don’t tell me what you think I’m trying to do, because you are wrong. Just work with the logic for a bit.

If a parent loves her child, and if that child will be in some sort of “hell” for eternity, one of two things must happen in order for there to be perfect and complete happiness in heaven. Either (1) God must expunge all recollection of that child from the parent’s memory, or (2) God must cause that parent to become utterly indifferent to the fate of the child, such that the memory of that child and the knowledge of its fate is of no consequence. This must be the case, or else the parent would continue to remember and care for the child, and grieve over its eternal fate. This grieving in turn would tarnish perfect eternal happiness.
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Point (3) was missed. 😉
 
StAnastasia said:
No, don’t tell me what you think I’m trying to do, because you are wrong. Just work with the logic for a bit.
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OK, let me try to understand. I’m not allowed to tell you what I think you’re trying to do but it’s OK for you to tell me what to do. Do I have that right? 🙂
If a parent loves her child, and if that child will be in some sort of “hell” for eternity, one of two things must happen in order for there to be perfect and complete happiness in heaven. Either (1) God must expunge all recollection of that child from the parent’s memory, or (2) God must cause that parent to become utterly indifferent to the fate of the child, such that the memory of that child and the knowledge of its fate is of no consequence. This must be the case, or else the parent would continue to remember and care for the child, and grieve over its eternal fate. This grieving in turn would tarnish perfect eternal happiness.
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Because I believe charity is the greatest virtue and what I am thinking right now is not charitable in the least, because I want to become a saint, and because I have received unclear instructions about the allowed parameters of my responses to this poster’s posts I am going to decline to respond to this part but instead spend a short time in reflection and prayer.
This question does not bother me at all, even though it interests me from a philosophical point of view.
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That’s really very, very, very sad. I feel pity for you and more for your children (and it wasn’t a question; it was a statement). 😦
 
LittleSoldier said:
OK, let me try to understand. I’m not allowed to tell you what I think you’re trying to do but it’s OK for you to tell me what to do. Do I have that right? 🙂
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You were twisting my words, and I don’t appreciate the false implication.
Because I believe charity is the greatest virtue and what I am thinking right now is not charitable in the least, because I want to become a saint, and because I have received unclear instructions about the allowed parameters of my responses to this poster’s posts I am going to decline to respond to this part but instead spend a short time in reflection and prayer.
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We are told to pray without ceasing!
That’s really very, very, very sad. I feel pity for you and more for your children (and it wasn’t a question; it was a statement).
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It’s curious you should feel sadness and pity for me, as I love my children. It’s a mystery!
 
grannymh said:
As I defend Catholicism, in my heart of hearts I, too, feel sad for you and the others.
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Don’t feel sad – I have dedicated my life to defending Catholicism. I could have had a high-powered science career, but chose to be a theology professor instead. I actually enjoy working with university students and seminarians and priests and bishops as much as I enjoy working with scientists!
 
StAnastasia said:
No, don’t tell me what you think I’m trying to do, because you are wrong. Just work with the logic for a bit.

If a parent loves her child, and if that child will be in some sort of “hell” for eternity, one of two things must happen in order for there to be perfect and complete happiness in heaven. Either (1) God must expunge all recollection of that child from the parent’s memory, or (2) God must cause that parent to become utterly indifferent to the fate of the child, such that the memory of that child and the knowledge of its fate is of no consequence. This must be the case, or else the parent would continue to remember and care for the child, and grieve over its eternal fate. This grieving in turn would tarnish perfect eternal happiness.
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I believe it was St Thomas Aquinas who held (although it may have been Augustine) that the “blessed in Heaven are allowed to see the tormented souls in Hell, so that their happiness may be more complete”.

I apologize if I got the attribution wrong, I’ve been reading a lot of that sort of stuff (theology from lots of saints, not depictions of Hell) recently in the Early Church Fathers set.
 
Khalid said:
I believe it was St Thomas Aquinas who held (although it may have been Augustine) that the “blessed in Heaven are allowed to see the tormented souls in Hell, so that their happiness may be more complete”.

I apologize if I got the attribution wrong, I’ve been reading a lot of that sort of stuff (theology from lots of saints, not depictions of Hell) recently in the Early Church Fathers set.
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Thanks – it took some looking, but I found it.

It seems that St. Thomas Aquinas affirmed that a mother in heaven could take joy in the pains of her damned child writhing in hellfire. Summa Theologica (IIIa Supplement to the Third Part, Questions 94, 97, 98 & 99)
  1. THE SAVED AND THE DAMNED
  2. The sufferings of the damned will be perfectly known to the saints or blessed in heaven, and will only make them the more thankful to God for his great mercy towards themselves.
  3. There can, however, be no pity in the saints with reference to the damned. For, on the other hand, they know that the damned are suffering what they chose and still perversely choose. On the other hand, pity is painful in the one who experiences it, and there can be nothing painful in heaven.
  4. The blessed are in full conformity with the will of God who wills justice. The saints rejoice in the accomplishment of God’s justice. To this extent it can be said that they joy in the pains of the damned.
 
StAnastasia said:
Don’t feel sad --** I have dedicated my life to defending Catholicism**. I could have had a high-powered science career, but chose to be a theology professor instead. I actually enjoy working with university students and seminarians and priests and bishops as much as I enjoy working with scientists!
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Emphasis mine.

How do you defend the Catholic doctrine of monogenism? The Catholic doctrine which declares that all humanity descended from two, sole human parents. How do you explain Original Sin from the viewpoint of Catholic doctrine?
 
grannymh said:
How do you defend the Catholic doctrine of monogenism? The Catholic doctrine which declares that all humanity descended from two, sole human parents. How do you explain Original Sin from the viewpoint of Catholic doctrine?
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I’ve done that many times for you in the last two years, and I don’t have time at the moment to reprise that. We are merely playing games to continue this game of “I’m-more-Catholic-than-you”. My bishop, my parish priests, my theologian colleagues, and my students are all quite comfortable with my full standing as a Catholic parishioner, theologian, and professor.
 
StAnastasia said:
Thanks – it took some looking, but I found it.

It seems that St. Thomas Aquinas affirmed that a mother in heaven could take joy in the pains of her damned child writhing in hellfire. Summa Theologica (IIIa Supplement to the Third Part, Questions 94, 97, 98 & 99)
  1. THE SAVED AND THE DAMNED
  2. The sufferings of the damned will be perfectly known to the saints or blessed in heaven, and will only make them the more thankful to God for his great mercy towards themselves.
  3. There can, however, be no pity in the saints with reference to the damned. For, on the other hand, they know that the damned are suffering what they chose and still perversely choose. On the other hand, pity is painful in the one who experiences it, and there can be nothing painful in heaven.
  4. The blessed are in full conformity with the will of God who wills justice. The saints rejoice in the accomplishment of God’s justice. To this extent it can be said that they joy in the pains of the damned.
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  1. St Thomas was not infallible!
  2. The blessed have compassion for the damned.
  3. They do not rejoice because the damned are suffering but because they love God and know God loves them.
  4. They accept the suffering of the damned even though they love them because they know the damned reject God and all those who love God.
  5. Their joy is not lessened because they know **everyone is obtaining what they choose.
**6. They also know they could not co-exist in harmony with those who reject God.
  1. The damned are prepared to pay the price of being totally independent.
  2. God allows the damned to reject Him because our freedom is more valuable than anything else and without freedom we are incapable of love.
  3. Even though the damned reject God He loves them because they are His children and His perfect love is absolute and unconditional.
  4. God permits evil and suffering because all love entails sacrifice.
NB These are my views and I don’t claim to be infallible!
 
StAnastasia said:
I’ve done that many times for you in the last two years, and I don’t have time at the moment to reprise that. We are merely playing games to continue this game of “I’m-more-Catholic-than-you”. My bishop, my parish priests, my theologian colleagues, and my students are all quite comfortable with my full standing as a Catholic parishioner, theologian, and professor.
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I am asking about the Catholic doctrine of monogenism and its defense since you said "I have dedicated my life to defending Catholicism" in post 130. I am not asking about your standing as a Catholic parishioner, theologian, and professor.

Since you say that you’ve done something regarding my question many times, it should only take a minute or two of your time to outline your defense of Catholicism’s doctrine on monogenism. It would take about 23 seconds to actually state the Catholic doctrine.😉
 
grannymh said:
I am asking about the Catholic doctrine of monogenism and its defense since you said "I have dedicated my life to defending Catholicism" in post 130. I am not asking about your standing as a Catholic parishioner, theologian, and professor.

Since you say that you’ve done something regarding my question many times, it should only take a minute or two of your time to outline your defense of Catholicism. It would take about 23 seconds to actually state the Catholic doctrine.😉
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A post I submitted on this subject was removed and the thread was closed. I advise you not to pursue it any further…
 
tonyrey said:
  1. St Thomas was not infallible!
  2. The blessed have compassion for the damned.
  3. They do not rejoice because the damned are suffering but because they love God and know God loves them.
  4. They accept the suffering of the damned even though they love them because they know the damned reject God and all those who love God.
  5. Their joy is not lessened because they know **everyone is obtaining what they choose.
**6. They also know they could not co-exist in harmony with those who reject God.
  1. The damned are prepared to pay the price of being totally independent.
  2. God allows the damned to reject Him because our freedom is more valuable than anything else and without freedom we are incapable of love.
  3. Even though the damned reject God He loves them because they are His children and His perfect love is absolute and unconditional.
  4. God permits evil and suffering because all love entails sacrifice.
NB These are my views and I don’t claim to be infallible!
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This is one of the best posts I have ever read. Thank you. I couldn’t have expressed my views anywhere nearly as well as you have.
 
StAnastasia said:
You were twisting my words, and I don’t appreciate the false implication.
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How did I twist your words? What is the false implication? Sorry, but I’m rather at a loss here. It appeared to me that it was exactly what you told me.
We are told to pray without ceasing!
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We are also told to love and to forgive.
It’s curious you should feel sadness and pity for me, as I love my children. It’s a mystery!
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If you find my statement a mystery then I feel even sadder and pity you and your children even more.
 
StAnastasia said:
Don’t feel sad – I have dedicated my life to defending Catholicism.
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Then please do it! All you seem to accomplish with me is confuse and insult me.
I could have had a high-powered science career, but chose to be a theology professor instead. I actually enjoy working with university students and seminarians and priests and bishops as much as I enjoy working with scientists!
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I don’t believe you would enjoy working with this scientist.
😦
 
LittleSoldier said:
  1. St Thomas was not infallible!
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You overwhelm me! I have been thinking and writing about hell for longer than I care to remember… The problem is that close acquaintance with it is not exactly what I would like. In fact I hope my ideas are never confirmed by personal experience!

I console myself that any merit they may have are not due to inspiration but perspiration. 🙂 I definitely prefer not to be directly enlightened from that direction… :eek:
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