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StAnastasia
Guest
So do you not accept that souls are infused into both twins at the moment of conception? I thought that was your theory.
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grannymh
Guest
Are you referring to two individual humans in the same human womb? If not, what are you referring to?
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StAnastasia
Guest
That’s usually what the word “twins” refer to. I recognize that the science is complicated and perhaps hard for you to comprehend (I hope you don’t mind my borrowing your bantering tone!).
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grannymh
Guest
You are quite right that natural science is hard for me to comprehend. That is why I spend time researching. This time I found that the word “twins” in the usual sense cannot apply to the rare occurrence of “fetus in fetu”. In that situation there is a parasite and host which would not be “twins” in the usual sense.
Now, we have two discernible human twins in the womb. Their human nature, by definition, is spiritual soul and material body. Therefore, God did create their spiritual souls at conception. I do love that Catholic doctrine of the spiritual soul which did not evolve.
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StAnastasia
Guest
Right. One develops into a normal fetus and later baby; the other becomes encysted into the survivor, and later can become carcinogenic.
There are also cases of “disappearing twins,” where one of two fertilized ova becomes absorbed by the other or by the mother’s body. This process does not harm the surviving twin, but it does entail the termination of the pregnancy with the absorbed twin.
StAnastasia
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grannymh
Guest
When I spoke of two discernible human twins in the womb, I was referring to two discernible human beings. Neither one is at best, an especially well differentiated teratoma; or, at worst, a high-grade metastatic teratocarcinoma. (see source link in post 367.)
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StAnastasia
Guest
Agreed!
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grannymh
Guest
I do not want to put words in your mouth or twist the meaning of anything you say.
Therefore, I want to make sure that everyone is clear on my personal underlying meaning of post 384.
Of course, you may continue to present your thoughts and, in turn, I will develop my thoughts and present them.
Post 384.
“When I spoke of two discernible human twins in the womb, I was referring to two discernible human beings. Neither one is at best, an especially well differentiated teratoma; or, at worst, a high-grade metastatic teratocarcinoma. (see source link in post 367.)”
Post 384 essentially follows the reasoning that tumors or parasites do not have an individual spiritual soul. This essentially contradicts the idea that there can be human twins where one is a normal fetus and later baby; and the other becomes encysted into the survivor, and later can become carcinogenic.
The difficulty is that the common use of “twins” regarding humans outside the womb cannot be applied exactly to what happens in the early stages of pregnancy.
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StAnastasia
Guest
Is a fertilized egg “ensouled” at the moment of conception?
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tonyrey
Guest
That is the only moment we can p(name removed by moderator)oint as the creation of a human being. It is arbitrary to select any subsequent stage of development…
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John21652
Guest
If a fertilised egg does not implant itself successfully into the lining of the womb, which means it was never viable, but ‘aborts’, is it the death of an ensouled human being?
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grannymh
Guest
May I add some scientific information.
After all, if we are going to examine other worlds deprived of God ----
it would be helpful to understand our world which is not deprived of God.
Natural science is a gift meant for our world created by God.
Special note to pregnant women.
From genetic studies of heredity, we know that chance can play a part as to the condition of genes, including recessive genes, which parents pass on to their offspring. Scientists, God bless them, can assure parents that their child’s flaming red hair, which does not appear among recent ancestors, does not come from the mailman.
Along those lines, today’s genetic scientists can determine the functions of the mass of tissue, i.e., early cells of the fetus in the first stages of gestation. Developmental abnormalities can appear–but that does not mean that abnormalities will appear. Even if they do appear like an extra toe, abnormalities can be treated. some rare tumors can be treated either by in utero surgery or after birth. (post 338)
So please, dear pregnant women, do not let this discussion trouble you. The issue here involves the concept of God’s created spiritual soul.
This thread has referred to the extremely rare “fetus in fetu” which is a developmental abnormality in which a mass of tissue resembling a fetus forms inside the body of a host fetus (post 343) This type of tumor does not carry the DNA of both parents and is not identical to the host fetus. It is not a human twin. It is alive only in the sense that its component tissues have not yet died or been eliminated. This life is akin to that of a tumor. (post 367)
In terms of physical maturation, this kind (fetus in fetu) of a teratoma (tumor) obtains a working blood supply from the host which is why it is considered a parasite. Because of critical defects such as no functional brain, heart, lungs, etc., this parasite cannot live on its own separate from its host’s body. (post 367)
Therefore the fetus in fetu (parasite) is not a “twin” human person.
Since it is not a human person, it does not have a human nature which includes the essential presence of a spiritual soul lovingly created by God, Himself.
Blessings,
granny
All persons are sacred because each is an unique creation by a loving Creator.
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grannymh
Guest
In my personal, humble opinion,
this post contains both a theological issue and a scientific issue.
The theological issue is the Catholic teaching that the unity of spiritual soul and material anatomy is so profound that there are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature. It is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living human person within the womb. Please refer to paragraphs 362 - 366 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Because of the direct creation of a spiritual soul, the *successful viable *conception which includes the implantation in the lining of the womb (post 389) can become a human person. Considering that chance does play a part in minute mutations within the genome, it is possible that a *successful *conception of real human twins will not take place. I mention this because previous posts have focused on very rare abnormalities which can occur in the early gestation process.
God, Who is active within our world, understands what is happening in the womb. We have only our physical senses. Scientists, God bless them, see the results of genetic abnormalities and have described some of the very rare cases. According to the scientific descriptions (which I will address in an additional post), an abnormality does not produce a real human twin.
Both God and scientists know the difference between a composition of cells which are a non-human parasite and the composition of cells who is a human being who serves as the host to a parasite.
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grannymh
Guest
May I add some scientific information.
After all, if we are going to examine other worlds deprived of God ----
it would be helpful to understand our material/physical world which is not deprived of God.
Natural science is a gift meant for our world created by God.
Special note to pregnant women.
From genetic studies of heredity, we know that chance can play a part as to the condition of genes, including recessive genes, which parents pass on to their offspring. Scientists, God bless them, can assure parents that their child’s flaming red hair, which does not appear among recent ancestors, did not come from the milkman.
Along those lines, today’s genetic scientists can determine the functions of the mass of tissue, i.e., early cells of the fetus in the first stages of gestation. Developmental abnormalities can appear–but that does not mean that abnormalities will appear. Even if they do appear like an extra toe, abnormalities can be treated. Some very rare tumors can be treated either by in utero surgery or after birth. (post 338)
So please, dear pregnant women, do not let this discussion trouble you.
The issue here and in previous posts involves the concept of God’s created spiritual soul. This thread has referred to the extremely rare “fetus in fetu” which is a developmental abnormality in which a mass of tissue resembling a fetus forms inside the body of a host fetus (post 343) This type of tumor does not carry the complete DNA of both parents and is not identical to the host fetus. (Obviously, it does carry some similar genes.) It is not a human twin. It is alive only in the sense that its component tissues have not yet died or been eliminated. This life is akin to that of a tumor. (post 367)
In terms of physical maturation, this kind (fetus in fetu) of a teratoma (tumor) obtains a working blood supply from the host which is why it is considered a parasite. Because of critical defects such as no functional brain, heart, lungs, etc., this parasite cannot live on its own separate from its host’s body. (post 367)
Therefore the fetus in fetu (parasite) is not a “twin” human person.
Since it is not a human person, it does not have a human nature which includes the essential presence of a spiritual soul lovingly created by God, Himself.
Blessings,
granny
All persons are sacred because each is an unique creation by a loving Creator.
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StAnastasia
Guest
Yes, that’s the interesting question. One of the University of Washington embryologists with whom I consult says that between 20% and 50% of fetilized ova spontaneously abort within hours or days. If ensoulment takes place at the moment of conception, this implies that between 20% and 50% of human beings enter eternity without ever having lived outside the womb. If ensoulment does not take place until after the fertilized egg is implanted, then I presume we do not have the death of a human being.
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StAnastasia
Guest
Tony, that is, unless we can use some other criterion of viability. In the phenomenon of “disappearing twin,” one twin is reabsorbed either by the dominant twin or by the mother’s own body.
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grannymh
Guest
May I respectfully offer the scientific information found in posts 338, 343, 367, 389, and 391.
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tonyrey
Guest
Whether the twin disappears or not he or she has been procreated and existed…
Physical factors such as normality, longevity, independence or death are irrelevant in the spiritual realm.
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tonyrey
Guest
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grannymh
Guest
May I respectfully point out that the “twin” in question does not refer to a human person. I do recognize that unfortunately, the citation was not presented in post 393.
Nonetheless, the status of the human fetus within the womb does not allow it to digest or absorb the physical body of another human person.
In order not to alarm pregnant women, may I suggest reading post 391 above.
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