Are all transgressions of Natural Law equal?

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And if not, why?

For instance, I read an explanation that said this: “For example, putting a rosebush in a closet leads to the withering of the rosebush. To wither is not the natural end of the rosebush. In fact, inherent in the rosebush’s biology is its natural goal of growth and reproduction. Therefore, rosebushes should not be placed in closets.” Makes sense. But one would not think it’s exactly a sin to do that, would they? And if it isn’t, why are other things, such as homosexual acts, etc. thought of as wrong for being against natural law? I’m not trying to justify anything at all, I’m only pondering this. Perhaps it is because one involves people, and one doesn’t, but I’d like to hear what others have to say on this.
 
My thoughts on the subject are as follows:

I believe that the sinfulness of unnatural acts comes from the venial pleasure that is derived from them. I mean, there are plenty of things that we do that are unnatural with our bodies (such as piercing our ears or dying our hair) that are not sinful acts in and of themselves. There are, then, unnatural acts (such as over-eating) where there is at least a moderate amount of pleasure derived and these acts can be venially sinful (of course, venial sins can eventually lead one into committing a mortal sin through a general weakening of one’s charity). Finally, there are the acts that are the most addictive and most tempting (such as contraception, masturbation, etc…) and these are most definitely mortal sins in and of themselves.
 
My thoughts on the subject are as follows:

I believe that the sinfulness of unnatural acts comes from the venial pleasure that is derived from them. I mean, there are plenty of things that we do that are unnatural with our bodies (such as piercing our ears or dying our hair) that are not sinful acts in and of themselves. There are, then, unnatural acts (such as over-eating) where there is at least a moderate amount of pleasure derived and these acts can be venially sinful (of course, venial sins can eventually lead one into committing a mortal sin through a general weakening of one’s charity). Finally, there are the acts that are the most addictive and most tempting (such as contraception, masturbation, etc…) and these are most definitely mortal sins in and of themselves.
It could be said that this weakening of charity, through the persistence in seeking certain pleasures - in this case, the satisfaction of the desire to eat meat every day (which is not, in fact, necessary to our wellbeing) allows us to accept the maltreatment of those animals which provide said meat. Animal flesh is rendered more affordable by the animals in question being raised in less humane conditions and, indeed, it is fair to say that many people in Western society are so far removed from the source of their animal protein that they hardly even spare a thought for how it might have been produced. Happily, this is changing through deliberate efforts at consciousness-raising, but I would be very surprised to find “eating factory-farmed meat” listed on any rundown of confessable sins…
 
And to be honest, when you get down to brass tacks, there are so many things humans do that are a violation of natural law as it applies to other things - plants, other animals, bacteria, etc - that the whole edifice suffers from the same arbitrariness which it seeks to overcome. Is natural law only valid when applied to human beings? Surely not. There has to be another criterion of moral “rightness” apart from “not violating the natural end of things” - because every time we immunise children, obtain medical treatment, graft different species of fruit tree together, perform artificial insemination upon livestock, or even brush our teeth, we are interfering with the ultimate end of some otherwise perfectly natural process. Why are human ends to be privileged above other natural ends?
 
And to be honest, when you get down to brass tacks, there are so many things humans do that are a violation of natural law as it applies to other things - plants, other animals, bacteria, etc - that the whole edifice suffers from the same arbitrariness which it seeks to overcome. Is natural law only valid when applied to human beings? Surely not. There has to be another criterion of moral “rightness” apart from “not violating the natural end of things” - because every time we immunise children, obtain medical treatment, graft different species of fruit tree together, perform artificial insemination upon livestock, or even brush our teeth, we are interfering with the ultimate end of some otherwise perfectly natural process. Why are human ends to be privileged above other natural ends?
Human ends are privileged above natural ends because human life is not restricted to natural ends. Persons have more rights than animals because they are far more advanced intellectually, morally, socially, creatively, aesthetically and spiritually but animals still have the right to life, development and fulfilment without unnecessary interference.
 
And if not, why?

For instance, I read an explanation that said this: “For example, putting a rosebush in a closet leads to the withering of the rosebush. To wither is not the natural end of the rosebush. In fact, inherent in the rosebush’s biology is its natural goal of growth and reproduction. Therefore, rosebushes should not be placed in closets.” Makes sense. But one would not think it’s exactly a sin to do that, would they? And if it isn’t, why are other things, such as homosexual acts, etc. thought of as wrong for being against natural law? I’m not trying to justify anything at all, I’m only pondering this. Perhaps it is because one involves people, and one doesn’t, but I’d like to hear what others have to say on this.
You are very confused. Of course we should respect " Mother Nature " but the kind of natural law you really need to be aware of is the moral law which is the part of natural law which should guide our moral acts ( the ten commandments are examples of the natural moral law as reiterated by God and made into the commandments we must all follow. You need to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM:tiphat:
 
Persons have more rights than animals because they are far more advanced intellectually, morally, socially, creatively, aesthetically and spiritually but animals still have the right to life, development and fulfilment without unnecessary interference.
Do you have any concerns for some one taking that line of thought and running with it? ex: Since people in group A seem to be more advanced than those in group B than group A has more rights. Some what like what happened in “Animal Farm” with all animals being created equal, but some were more equal than others. I’m sure that’s not descriptive of your thinking. But I could see some one exploiting that line of thought.
 
Human ends are privileged above natural ends because human life is not restricted to natural ends. Persons have more rights than animals because they are far more advanced intellectually, morally, socially, creatively, aesthetically and spiritually but animals still have the right to life, development and fulfilment without unnecessary interference.
We might have more rights, because we have a broader range of abilities. But our basic rights, however these might be defined - some might say to life, to freedom from unnecessary suffering, to the opportunity to pursue natural or innate behaviours - cannot, in any non-arbitrary sense, be considered to be of greater importance than the basic rights of other sentient beings. The arbitrary privileging of human interests - and say what you will, the claim that human ends go beyond nature is a mere assertion with no supporting evidence - over those of all others was just one of the aspects of Christian belief that left me cold.

And the question has to arise here - why, if human ends go beyond natural ends, should we consider natural law to be in any way morally binding upon human action? Considering that it is applied in such a limited fashion, usually to matters of sex and reproduction, one wonders why it should be supposed such an authoritative moral code in any case.
 
Do you have any concerns for some one taking that line of thought and running with it? ex: Since people in group A seem to be more advanced than those in group B than group A has more rights. Some what like what happened in “Animal Farm” with all animals being created equal, but some were more equal than others. I’m sure that’s not descriptive of your thinking. But I could see some one exploiting that line of thought.
There seems little doubt that this line of thinking has been exploited, on many an occasion, throughout human history. Consider the treatment of slaves, of people with disabilities, of non-white races by Europeans (or of “foreigners” in any civilisation), and significantly, of women by male authority - in many different times and places. It’s all too easy, apparently, to settle upon one particular point of difference and use it to cancel out all other morally relevant qualities possessed by the “other”.
 
Code:
*  Persons have more rights than animals because they are far more  advanced intellectually, morally, socially, creatively, aesthetically  and spiritually but animals still have the right to life, development  and fulfilment without unnecessary interference.*
Do you have any concerns for some one taking that line of thought and running with it? ex: Since people in group A seem to be more advanced than those in group B than group A has more rights. Some what like what happened in “Animal Farm” with all animals being created equal, but some were more equal than others. I’m sure that’s not descriptive of your thinking.
You’re right and I take your point. That’s why I stipulated “without unnecessary interference”. 🙂
 
Sair;9561555:
From the naturalist’s **logical **
point of view natural law is simply the law of the jungle! There are no moral codes whatsoever in nature…

Evasion!

You are in the position of holding a belief that upholds “natural law”, yet you claim human ends are “beyond” nature. That is what is at issue here, not anything I or any other philosophical naturalist might or might not believe about morality being part of nature. Though I might add, your claim that morality is not a natural phenomenon is also an unsupported assertion…
 
tonyrey;9561662:
You are in the position of holding a belief that upholds “natural law”, yet you claim human ends are “beyond” nature.
There is no basis for that conclusion.
That is what is at issue here, not anything I or any other philosophical naturalist might or might not believe about morality being part of nature.
I have often stated that in an amoral universe morality is a human invention.
Though I might add, your claim that morality is not a natural phenomenon is also an unsupported assertion…
What is the reason for believing morality is a natural phenomenon?
 
Sair;9561671:
There is no basis for that conclusion.
If you mean the conclusion that human ends are beyond nature, then I agree. If you mean the conclusion that the Catholic faith, to which you adhere, posits natural law as a basis for morality, then all the evidence you need is in the Catholic Catechism.
I have often stated that in an amoral universe morality is a human invention.
Human moral codes, such as they are, certainly are a human invention. But we did not invent our capacity for empathy or our social proclivities, both of which give rise, quite organically, to what we might recognise as moral behaviour.
What is the reason for believing morality is a natural phenomenon?
Its appearance in what we might consider (arrogantly, perhaps) a rudimentary form in the behaviour of other social mammal species such as wolves, dolphins and great apes is one observation that lends support to the hypothesis that morality is a naturally evolved phenomenon. Morality is specifically a behavioural phenomenon, its very existence dependent upon relationships between natural entities. Ultimately, there is no reason for believing morality is not a natural phenomenon, except the imaginative notion that it was handed down to us from a supernatural deity.
 
If you mean the conclusion that human ends are beyond nature, then I agree.
In that case everyone imagines they have the power to attain ends even though their behaviour is completely predetermined by physical events.
If you mean the conclusion that the Catholic faith, to which you adhere, posits natural law as a basis for morality, then all the evidence you need is in the Catholic Catechism.
The Catholic faith also posits reason, a conscience and free will. It doesn’t apply natural law to naked apes…
I have often stated that in an amoral universe morality is a human invention.
Human moral codes, such as they are, certainly are a human invention.

No human invention corresponds to personal reality.
But we did not invent our capacity for empathy or our social proclivities, both of which give rise, quite organically, to what we might recognise as moral behaviour.
In addition to reducing morality to expediency the bloodstained history of humanity decisively refutes the hypothesis that morality is a natural product of “empathy or our social proclivities”.
What is the reason for believing morality is a natural phenomenon?
Its appearance in what we might consider (arrogantly, perhaps) a rudimentary form in the behaviour of other social mammal species such as wolves, dolphins and great apes is one observation that lends support to the hypothesis that morality is a naturally evolved phenomenon. Morality is specifically a behavioural phenomenon, its very existence dependent upon relationships between natural entities. Ultimately, there is no reason for believing morality is not a natural phenomenon, except the imaginative notion that it was handed down to us from a supernatural deity.

There is certainly no reason for believing morality is a natural phenomenon, except the ludicrous notion that it was handed down to us by amoral individuals dominated by the urge to survive and devoid of insight into the immense value of all life.
 
In that case everyone imagines they have the power to attain ends even though their behaviour is completely predetermined by physical events.
Be that as it may, human ends are human ends. There’s still no evidence that they are anything but natural.
The Catholic faith also posits reason, a conscience and free will. It doesn’t apply natural law to naked apes…
It supposes that natural law provides an anchor for reason, however - which in itself assumes that reason is not a natural phenomenon.
No human invention corresponds to personal reality.
Human inventions arise from personal reality. Necessity is the mother of invention, so the saying goes. What’s the point of inventing something for which we perceive no need?
In addition to reducing morality to expediency the bloodstained history of humanity decisively refutes the hypothesis that morality is a natural product of “empathy or our social proclivities”.
The problem is when irrational notions, often enshrined in religious dogma, interfere with the natural operation of empathy and sociability.
There is certainly no reason for believing morality is a natural phenomenon, except the ludicrous notion that it was handed down to us by amoral individuals dominated by the urge to survive and devoid of insight into the immense value of all life.
No reason? You are only demonstrating your bias towards the idea of morality as a set of rules imposed by some outside authority; but if it is a natural phenomenon, it isn’t grafted onto us by an external force. The desire for survival is innate, not a cultural construct like religion. All living beings are motivated by the need to survive - the key difference arises in the manner in which one pursues this end.

What we think of as human morality arises from the reality of our interdependence - some interpret this as a basis for equality, for considering the contributions that all individuals can make to the survival and prosperity of the group, and for a just exchange of abilities and resources to the mutual benefit of all; others interpret it as an excuse to exploit the weak and take what they can get without regard to the needs of others.

I think what you are referring to is the latter - the immoral influence of individuals, dominated by the overweening desire for power, using irrational ideas to exploit human fears in order to further their own ends, devoid of empathy and social awareness. Both extremes, and everything in between, are part of the spectrum of human nature. Religion, for all its claims to be above and beyond human nature, is just one of the tools invented and used by humans to impose inequality and indulge in exploitation, even within the supposedly egalitarian Christian church.
 
Be that as it may, human ends are human ends. There’s still no evidence that they are anything but natural.
If human ends are like all other biological goals they are completely predetermined by physical events and we have no choice.
The Catholic faith also posits reason, a conscience and free will. It doesn’t apply natural law to naked apes…
It supposes that natural law provides an anchor for reason, however - which in itself assumes that reason is not a natural phenomenon.

It is the other way round. Reason provides a basis for natural law because human nature is supernatural as well as natural.
No human invention corresponds to personal reality.
Human inventions arise from personal reality.

How do you distinguish personal reality from natural reality?
What’s the point of inventing something for which we perceive no need?
Morality is not invented because it is a need regardless of whether it is perceived.
In addition to reducing morality to expediency the bloodstained history of humanity decisively refutes the hypothesis that morality is a natural product of “empathy or our social proclivities”.
The problem is when irrational notions, often enshrined in religious dogma, interfere with the natural operation of empathy and sociability.

Empathy and sociability are neither the sole nor the dominant determinants of natural behaviour.
There is certainly no reason for believing morality is a natural phenomenon, except the ludicrous notion that it was handed down to us by amoral individuals dominated by the urge to survive and devoid of insight into the immense value of all life.
No reason? You are only demonstrating your bias towards the idea of morality as a set of rules imposed by some outside authority; but if it is a natural phenomenon, it isn’t grafted onto us by an external force.

Morality isn’t “grafted onto us by an external force” because we can - and often do - reject it. It is based on the perception that we are not animals dominated by instinct but rational beings.
The desire for survival is innate, not a cultural construct like religion.
All living beings are motivated by the need to survive - the key difference arises in the manner in which one pursues this end.

If the need to survive is the basis of morality it is no longer morality but selfish expediency - as opposed to cultural constructs based on spiritual truths which survive the test of time and are essential for personal fulfilment and social harmony.
What we think of as human morality arises from the reality of our interdependence - some interpret this as a basis for equality, for considering the contributions that all individuals can make to the survival and prosperity of the group, and for a just exchange of abilities and resources to the mutual benefit of all; others interpret it as an excuse to exploit the weak and take what they can get without regard to the needs of others.
Conflicting interpretations demonstrate that interdependence is an insufficient basis for morality.
I think what you are referring to is the latter - the immoral influence of individuals, dominated by the overweening desire for power, using irrational ideas to exploit human fears in order to further their own ends, devoid of empathy and social awareness. Both extremes, and everything in between, are part of the spectrum of human nature.
Religion, for all its claims to be above and beyond human nature, is just one of the tools invented and used by humans to impose inequality and indulge in exploitation, even within the supposedly egalitarian Christian church.
This is an excellent example of the genetic fallacy. It could be argued with greater cogency that the immoral influence of individuals, dominated by the overweening desire for power, reject religion in order to use irrational ideas to exploit human fears in order to further their own ends, devoid of empathy and social awareness.

A two-edged sword with the spiritual blade sharper than the worldly one…
 
If human ends are like all other biological goals they are completely predetermined by physical events and we have no choice.
Yes. And?
It is the other way round. Reason provides a basis for natural law because human nature is supernatural as well as natural.
Upon what do you base this assertion?
How do you distinguish personal reality from natural reality?
Personal reality is one particular kind of natural reality, that which involves the particular natural entities we define as persons.
Morality is not invented because it is a need regardless of whether it is perceived.
Um…okay. Where do the commas go? Because I’m not sure if you mean morality is necessary regardless of whether we notice its necessity or not; or if you mean morality is not invented through necessity (or at all, perhaps), whether we notice a need for it or not.
Empathy and sociability are neither the sole nor the dominant determinants of natural behaviour.
In the grand scheme of things, of course they’re not. But they are major determinants of the behavioural interaction of social animals such as humans, and they are also the basis of what we have come to understand as human morality. In modern times, they are also the means by which we may critique more ‘primitive’ notions of moral behaviour which might have been based upon other interests, such as the power or prestige of the ruling classes, or the superiority of one race (or sex) over another or, for that matter, the supposed desires of imaginary beings such as gods.
Morality isn’t “grafted onto us by an external force” because we can - and often do - reject it. It is based on the perception that we are not animals dominated by instinct but rational beings.
Why should such a perception (arrogant and erroneous though it may be…) be privileged as an explanation for morality over and above our perception of our own need to live together harmoniously if we are to survive and prosper? My point was not that morality is something planted in us by an outside force, but something handed down by an outside force, with a “do this or else” proviso attached - in the case of monotheistic religions, by god. People can accept or reject religion with great facility also, but at the end of the day, we cannot be completely independent. Even those who thrive upon manipulating others still need those others to manipulate. Morality exists solely as a function of the relationships between sentient beings - any codifications into sets of rules came after this fact. The fact of morality did not result from the formulation of any rules.
If the need to survive is the basis of morality it is no longer morality but selfish expediency - as opposed to cultural constructs based on spiritual truths which survive the test of time and are essential for personal fulfilment and social harmony.
Such as? After all, if survival is compromised, either on an individual or group basis, any concept of morality that does not advance survival is mere window dressing. Even the legal system, which you extol, recognises the necessary expedient of self-defence as a justification for manslaughter. Would it be better to sacrifice your own life for the needs of a petty thief who saw you as an inconvenient witness to their crime?
Conflicting interpretations demonstrate that interdependence is an insufficient basis for morality.
That being the case, what have you to say of the hundreds of conflicting religious faiths posited as bases for moral strictures? Not one of the many theologies that exist and have existed has the wherewithal, philosophically, spiritually (however that is interpreted) or historically to stake a solid claim to be truth, so why base moral decisions on any of them?
This is an excellent example of the genetic fallacy. It could be argued with greater cogency that the immoral influence of individuals, dominated by the overweening desire for power, reject religion in order to use irrational ideas to exploit human fears in order to further their own ends, devoid of empathy and social awareness.
A two-edged sword with the spiritual blade sharper than the worldly one…
Considering the truth claims of most religions, I would hazard to assert that the genetic fallacy does not apply in this case. The origins of religions are, in general, claimed to lie in the existence, pronouncements or deeds of deities and other “spiritual” beings, so the likelihood that they are man-made, and often for spurious ends, does in fact cut the ground from under them.

In any case, if you mean to imply that certain individuals, such as totalitarian dictators, drew upon irreligious ideas to impose absolute power, this argument has been refuted on many an occasion.
 
And if not, why?

For instance, I read an explanation that said this: “For example, putting a rosebush in a closet leads to the withering of the rosebush. To wither is not the natural end of the rosebush. In fact, inherent in the rosebush’s biology is its natural goal of growth and reproduction. Therefore, rosebushes should not be placed in closets.” Makes sense. But one would not think it’s exactly a sin to do that, would they? And if it isn’t, why are other things, such as homosexual acts, etc. thought of as wrong for being against natural law? I’m not trying to justify anything at all, I’m only pondering this. Perhaps it is because one involves people, and one doesn’t, but I’d like to hear what others have to say on this.
Laircy:

Welcome to CAF.

I have a suspicion that the analogy was misunderstood. It is not an admonition against placing rose bushes in closets. It is an example of the “natural order” of things. In the natural order, no bush will live and thrive in any situation that removes it from its natural order. The essential makeup of bushes is to grow and thrive outdoors. That “natural order” is an example of the Natural Law. IOW, if we were to thwart the natural order, thus, the Natural Law, we will have a situation on our hands similar to our poor bush, removed from its most appropriate location for life and thriving.

Sin violations of Natural Law tend to do the same thing. Such sins weaken us. Such sins place us in a closet, so to speak, from which it is difficult to escape. Without God’s graces (the bush’s sunlight and water), we whither and die.

The natural law is the laws of natural things. Part of the natural law, for the Rose bush, is to participate in sunlight and water, not darkness and aridness. These are natural to it. So, it has nothing directly to do with us, that the bush is placed into a closet. That’s merely an example of the deprivation of all of that which is natural to a Rose bush. Similarly, there are numerous things that are natural to humans, the deprivation of which will cause us to whither and die. Examples are: food and sustenance, physical and mental exercise, procreation, freedom, life, God’s grace, the Sacraments, affinity with God, among others.

Does this make sense?

God bless,
jd
 
And if not, why?

For instance, I read an explanation that said this: “For example, putting a rosebush in a closet leads to the withering of the rosebush. To wither is not the natural end of the rosebush. In fact, inherent in the rosebush’s biology is its natural goal of growth and reproduction. Therefore, rosebushes should not be placed in closets.” Makes sense. But one would not think it’s exactly a sin to do that, would they? And if it isn’t, why are other things, such as homosexual acts, etc. thought of as wrong for being against natural law? I’m not trying to justify anything at all, I’m only pondering this. Perhaps it is because one involves people, and one doesn’t, but I’d like to hear what others have to say on this.
Laircy:

The answer to your OP question is, “No.” They are not all “equal.” A “human act” in one that is proper to human beings, that is, an act that proceeds from the free will of man. It presupposes in the intellect some knowledge of the purpose of the act, and in the will the freedom of choice to perform it or not. From these definitions, of sorts, one can extrapolate codicils that may be mitigating.

For example, a man might perform some act that he knows might kill him, but does it for another intention - one that does not include self-murder. A soldier might throw himself on a live grenade to save the lives of several of his comrades. It is an act that violates natural law, but although known as the probable outcome, was not directly intended or willed. It is a venial sin, but not a mortal sin.

God bless,
jd
 
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