Are Anglicans protestants?

[GKC]

Absolutely!

Again, this is a generous (perhaps overly so) assessment. But I’d love to have a book that I actually wrote, to put on the shelf with all those others, that I didn’t.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Hi GKC. Why do I always feel I need to defend poor Henry VIII?
Thanks for including Edward. I was going to put him in, but I thought he was after Elizabeth. My history is not as good as yours!

May I ask what one of your favorite tales is?
I’m afraid I don’t know Latin.

Edward got to the throne first because (a) it was in Henry’s will and (b) that was how it would likely have worked, anyway, at the time, absent some sort of civil war.

Henry always needs defense. And explanation. He was something of a train wreck. And his history is not all that well known, and is itself, fascinating. IMO.

The story of how Hank got the title of* Defensor Fidei.* You must have seen me post it.

I don’t know a lot of Latin, myself, But my daughter has a degree in it, and taught it for a number of years.

GKC

 

[Duane1966]

Again, this is a generous (perhaps overly so) assessment. But I’d love to have a book that I actually wrote, to put on the shelf with all those others, that I didn’t.

GKC

I will give you an imprimatur.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Edward got to the throne first because (a) it was in Henry’s will and (b) that was how it would likely have worked, anyway, at the time, absent some sort of civil war.

Henry always needs defense. And explanation. He was something of a train wreck. And his history is not all that well known, and is itself, fascinating. IMO.

The story of how Hank got the title of* Defensor Fidei.* You must have seen me post it.

I don’t know a lot of Latin, myself, But my daughter has a degree in it, and taught it for a number of years.

GKC

I don’t believe I have read your post of how Henry got his title - Defender of the Faith. Do you have a link or would you be willing to retell it.

Yes, HenryVIII personal life was a train wreck. I suppose I should find a good autobiography to read of his life. I have David Starkey’s book Six Wives - the Queens of Henry VIII. But it has set on the shelf for several years.

 

[GKC]

I don’t believe I have read your post of how Henry got his title - Defender of the Faith. Do you have a link or would you be willing to retell it.

Yes, HenryVIII personal life was a train wreck. I suppose I should find a good autobiography to read of his life. I have David Starkey’s book Six Wives - the Queens of Henry VIII. But it has set on the shelf for several years.

Nothing wrong with Starkey, but the book to read is Sacrisbrick’s HENRY VIII.

I’ll go look for one of my saved posts on Henry’s title. Back in a while.

GKC

 

[GKC]

I don’t believe I have read your post of how Henry got his title - Defender of the Faith. Do you have a link or would you be willing to retell it.

Yes, HenryVIII personal life was a train wreck. I suppose I should find a good autobiography to read of his life. I have David Starkey’s book Six Wives - the Queens of Henry VIII. But it has set on the shelf for several years.

Ok. Here’s one of them:

Henry like sparklies. Was always on the look-out for a new and nifty title, or gee-gaw to add to his collection. In 1512, he petitioned Julius II to award him the title possessed by Louis XII, “Most Christian King” (you didn’t just call yourself something like that; it was awarded). Not sure if “Most Christian” was a singular title, but Julius did award it to Henry, and, for good measure, secretly gave him the French throne. All he had to do to claim it was to defeat Louis in the then on-going unpleasantness between the Holy League/1511, and France. That part never happened, though Henry tried. But Henry got his “Christianissimus”.

In 1515, Henry wanted something else to pad his resume. Various ideas were passed around: “Protector of the Holy See”, maybe “Defender”, from the English side. The first was turned down because it already belonged to the Holy Roman Emperor, the second was the property of the Swiss. Some in Rome countered with “King Apostolic” (interesting combination) or “Orthodox”. The Pope vetoed both. In 1516, the title of “Defender of the Faith” was proposed from England. Leo ignored it, and Henry gave up until May, 1521, when Wolsey wrote once again to Rome, asking for a pretty for Henry. Leo passed it to a committee of Cardinals. Forthcoming were suggestions:

“Rex Fidelis”, “Orthodoxus”, “Ecclesiaticus” ,
“Protector”, “Anglicus”

When the Cardinals inquired just why Henry warranted another honor, the part he had played fighting for the Holy See against Louis, 9 years before, was mentioned. And there was the Assertio Septem Sacramentorum), a defense of the sacraments, and Papal authority,contra Luther, of which Rome had heard. It was in draft (in this form), in May 1521, printed in July, sent to Rome in September, after the Cardinals had been considering the matter of Henry’s request for a few months. And it was at least partially Henry’s work. Probably). So, before the* Assertio* was received and presented to Leo, (his copy bound in cloth-of-gold, hand inscribed to Leo, the 27 other copies more mundane), a list of titles for Henry to choose from was shipped to England.

TheAssertio probably tipped the scales. About the time it was presented to Leo, Henry chose the same title that had been suggested by England 6 years before: Defensor Fidei. Leo granted it six weeks after he received the book. Doubtless directly inspired by the Assertio, some cardinals then wanted to add a flourish such as Gloriosus or Fidelissimus, but Leo vetoed it.

So Henry got his sparklie, partially because of the Assertio, partially because of the Holy League, partially because he was a pain in the neck. It was intended as a title for him personally, though he thought it was hereditary. Parliament thought it looked nice, and attached it to the Throne, in 1543. Mary took it off, in her Second Act of repeal, Elizabeth put it back, and it’s there now by legislative fiat. Hence, the title attached to the British Monarchy is not really the same as the one Henry bore. It’s a gift from Parliament. Just uses the same words.

GKC

 

[7_Sorrows]

Nothing wrong with Starkey, but the book to read is Sacrisbrick’s HENRY VIII.

I’ll go look for one of my saved posts on Henry’s title. Back in a while.

GKC

Ok. No hurry if you have other things to do. I would love to hear the tale though. Thanks.

 

[GKC]

Ok. No hurry if you have other things to do. I would love to hear the tale though. Thanks.

See above, at 2:49.

GKC

 

[7_Sorrows]

Ok. Here’s one of them:

Henry like sparklies. Was always on the look-out for a new and nifty title, or gee-gaw to add to his collection. In 1512, he petitioned Julius II to award him the title possessed by Louis XII, “Most Christian King” (you didn’t just call yourself something like that; it was awarded). Not sure if “Most Christian” was a singular title, but Julius did award it to Henry, and, for good measure, secretly gave him the French throne. All he had to do to claim it was to defeat Louis in the then on-going unpleasantness between the Holy League/1511, and France. That part never happened, though Henry tried. But Henry got his “Christianissimus”.

In 1515, Henry wanted something else to pad his resume. Various ideas were passed around: “Protector of the Holy See”, maybe “Defender”, from the English side. The first was turned down because it already belonged to the Holy Roman Emperor, the second was the property of the Swiss. Some in Rome countered with “King Apostolic” (interesting combination) or “Orthodox”. The Pope vetoed both. In 1516, the title of “Defender of the Faith” was proposed from England. Leo ignored it, and Henry gave up until May, 1521, when Wolsey wrote once again to Rome, asking for a pretty for Henry. Leo passed it to a committee of Cardinals. Forthcoming were suggestions:

“Rex Fidelis”, “Orthodoxus”, “Ecclesiaticus” ,
“Protector”, “Anglicus”

When the Cardinals inquired just why Henry warranted another honor, the part he had played fighting for the Holy See against Louis, 9 years before, was mentioned. And there was the Assertio Septem Sacramentorum), a defense of the sacraments, and Papal authority,contra Luther, of which Rome had heard. It was in draft (in this form), in May 1521, printed in July, sent to Rome in September, after the Cardinals had been considering the matter of Henry’s request for a few months. And it was at least partially Henry’s work. Probably). So, before the* Assertio* was received and presented to Leo, (his copy bound in cloth-of-gold, hand inscribed to Leo, the 27 other copies more mundane), a list of titles for Henry to choose from was shipped to England.

TheAssertio probably tipped the scales. About the time it was presented to Leo, Henry chose the same title that had been suggested by England 6 years before: Defensor Fidei. Leo granted it six weeks after he received the book. Doubtless directly inspired by the Assertio, some cardinals then wanted to add a flourish such as Gloriosus or Fidelissimus, but Leo vetoed it.

So Henry got his sparklie, partially because of the Assertio, partially because of the Holy League, partially because he was a pain in the neck. It was intended as a title for him personally, though he thought it was hereditary. Parliament thought it looked nice, and attached it to the Throne, in 1543. Mary took it off, in her Second Act of repeal, Elizabeth put it back, and it’s there now by legislative fiat. Hence, the title attached to the British Monarchy is not really the same as the one Henry bore. It’s a gift from Parliament. Just uses the same words.

GKC

Thank you GKC. Henry did show patience if he petitioned for it in 1512 and didn’t get it until 1521 or after. He also showed patience dealing with the Vatican over his annullment. I believe it was some years he waited.
I am sure receiving the title from the Pope meant a lot to Henry.
I think he wanted to be a good Christian king, but
he could not resist temptation.
He certainly made a name for himself! Politics and religion both carried a lot of power with the monarchies.

 

[7_Sorrows]

See above, at 2:49.

GKC

Is that in reference to a video? I don’t see a link.

 

[GKC]

Is that in reference to a video? I don’t see a link.

Nope. No link. Just my post. That’s the tale of how Hank got the* Defensor Fidei* title. Written for some post many years ago, posted several times here since then.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Thank you GKC. Henry did show patience if he petitioned for it in 1512 and didn’t get it until 1521 or after. He also showed patience dealing with the Vatican over his annullment. I believe it was some years he waited.
I am sure receiving the title from the Pope meant a lot to Henry.
I think he wanted to be a good Christian king, but
he could not resist temptation.
He certainly made a name for himself! Politics and religion both carried a lot of power with the monarchies.

Henry tried to work the annulment process for roughly 7 years before he made the break with Rome. Reasonably patient, and expectant that the result would be what he wanted: his causa was as good as was common in such cases, in those days.

Scarisbrick is good on the whole history. Politics and religion were tightly intertwined in those days, and the complicated story shows it.

GKC

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

Sometimes I see places where it says Anglicans are not Protestants, but a distinctive branch of Christianity, but then other times I see places where it says that Anglicans are Protestants. Isn’t the full name of the Episcopal Church the Protestant Episcopal Church of America? Does that show Anglicans are Protestants? But then you will hear a lot of Anglicans disavow Protestant and refer to themselves as a distinct branch… I’m really confused…

The branch theory, which is what you refer to, is a fairly modern theory in Anglicanism. “The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church” defines the branch theory:

“…the theory that, though the Church may have fallen into schism within itself and its several provinces or groups of provinces be out of communion with each other, each may yet be a branch of the one Church of Christ, provided that it continues to hold the faith of the original undivided Church and to maintain the Apostolic Succession of its bishops. Such, it is contended by many Anglican theologians, is the condition of the Church at the present time, there being now three main branches…”

The principal originator of this theory was William Palmer (1803–1885), an Oxford theologian, in his two-volume “Treatise on the Church of Christ” (1838). The theory was popularized during the Oxford Movement, especially by the Tractarians. The branch theory received a mixed reception within the Anglican Communion.

The entire theology and liturgy of the Church of England, from the Book of Common Prayer to the Articles of Religion, are thoroughly Protestant. Since the rise of the Anglo-Catholic movement in the 19th century the appearances of many Anglican churches and liturgies more closely follow Catholic models, but in this case one cannot tell the theological book by the liturgical cover.

.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Henry tried to work the annulment process for roughly 7 years before he made the break with Rome. Reasonably patient, and expectant that the result would be what he wanted: his causa was as good as was common in such cases, in those days.

Scarisbrick is good on the whole history. Politics and religion were tightly intertwined in those days, and the complicated story shows it.

GKC

7 years is a very long time! I will have to look for the author you mentioned - Scarisbrick.

Martin Luther is an entirely different case from King Henry VIII.

Thank you GKC for your posts!

 

[7_Sorrows]

Henry tried to work the annulment process for roughly 7 years before he made the break with Rome. Reasonably patient, and expectant that the result would be what he wanted: his causa was as good as was common in such cases, in those days.

Scarisbrick is good on the whole history. Politics and religion were tightly intertwined in those days, and the complicated story shows it.

GKC

7 years is a very long time! I will have to look for the author you mentioned - Scarisbrick.

Martin Luther is an entirely different case from King Henry VIII.

Thank you GKC for your posts!

 

[7_Sorrows]

Looks like you deserved 2 thank you’s!

Do you make copies of your posts somehow and file them away or do ypu search for them here?

Since you are asked for answers so often I am glad you don’t have to retype them!

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

You might refer them to anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/2013/06/putting-p-back-in-anglican.html

The reference to “defined in seven Ecumenical Councils (Affirmation of St. Louis)” refers to the founding document of the Continuing Anglican movement, not the Anglican Communion or the Protestant Episcopal Church. As I said, you can’t judge this theological book by its liturgical cover.

.

 

[GKC]

Looks like you deserved 2 thank you’s!

Do you make copies of your posts somehow and file them away or do ypu search for them here?

Since you are asked for answers so often I am glad you don’t have to retype them!

Yes, I started saving the ones on topics I got frequent opportunities to comment on, some years back. Poorly organized, but I saved a lot of them. Takes time to find what I want, sometimes.

GKC

 

[7_Sorrows]

Yes, I started saving the ones on topics I got frequent opportunities to comment on, some years back. Poorly organized, but I saved a lot of them. Takes time to find what I want, sometimes.

GKC

It pays to be organized. I wonder what the other rulers in europe thought of him having 6 wives?

 

[Potter]

The Episcopal church refers to itself as Protestant AND Catholic, because – well, we like having our cake and eating it too. We regard ourselves as being members of the ‘catholic’ (universal) Christian church, but the influence of Protestanism varies on the parish, I think – both on the people’s desires (mine has become more high church over the years) and the priest. My first rectors were converted Methodists and southern Baptists, so their theology tended to be different than that of my current rector, who was baptized in the Catholic church but raised in an Episcopal parish. The only major Protestant influence I’ve observed on the whole is a greater emphasis on salvation by faith.