Are any styles of music unsuitable for liturgy, if the lyrics are suitable?

[VociMike]

Just trying to get to the heart of the matter. Can we keep out any style of music from the liturgy, as long as the lyrics are acceptable? Why or why not?

 

[benedictgal]

Sacred Music is not just about the lyrics. It also has to include to the type of music that is used for these words. Pope John Paul II made some very good points in his Chirograph on Sacred Music:

1. On various occasions I too have recalled the precious role and great importance of music and song for a more active and intense participation in liturgical celebrations[9]. I*** have also stressed the need to “purify worship from ugliness of style, from distasteful forms of expression, from uninspired musical texts which are not worthy of the great act that is being celebrated”[10], to guarantee dignity and excellence to liturgical compositions.***

Here, he’s not just writing about lyrics, but style, and its “distasteful forms of expressions.”

Furthermore, John Paul writes:

1. In continuity with the teachings of St Pius X and the Second Vatican Council, it is necessary first of all to emphasize that music destined for sacred rites must have holiness as its reference point: indeed, “sacred music increases in holiness to the degree that it is intimately linked with liturgical action”[11]. For this very reason, “not all without distinction that is outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross its threshold”, my venerable Predecessor Paul VI wisely said, commenting on a Decree of the Council of Trent[12]. And he explained that “if music - instrumental and vocal - does not possess at the same time the sense of prayer, dignity and beauty, it precludes the entry into the sphere of the sacred and the religious”[13]. Today, moreover, the meaning of the category “sacred music” has been broadened to include repertoires that cannot be part of the celebration without violating the spirit and norms of the Liturgy itself.

St Pius X’s reform aimed specifically at purifying Church music from the contamination of profane theatrical music that in many countries had polluted the repertoire and musical praxis of the Liturgy. In our day too, careful thought, as I emphasized in the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia, should be given to the fact that not all the expressions of figurative art or of music are able “to express adequately the mystery grasped in the fullness of the Church’s faith”[14]. Consequently, not all forms of music can be considered suitable for liturgical celebrations.

In essence, John Paul said what Pope Benedict XVI would echo some six years later when he wrote that one song is not as good as another as far as the liturgy is concerned.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Country Music, Rock and Roll, Heavy Metal or Rap, even if the lyrics were true, would not be appropriate.

Music should be in the style that is conducive for worship and prayer.

The music should not inspire you to get up and line-dance, but rather, lift your heart and soul to the Lord.

Jim

 

[VociMike]

Country Music, Rock and Roll, Heavy Metal or Rap, even if the lyrics were true, would not be appropriate.

Music should be in the style that is conducive for worship and prayer.

The music should not inspire you to get up and line-dance, but rather, lift your heart and soul to the Lord.

Jim, what if somebody said that music in one of those styles was conducive for worship and prayer, for them? What would you say to them?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim, what if somebody said that music in one of those styles was conducive for worship and prayer, for them? What would you say to them?

I would have to agree to disagree and they would have to convince me.

BTW, I’ve yet to see any of those styles, played at Mass, even when I was playing in a group, at my parish.

Jim

 

[benedictgal]

I would have to agree to disagree and they would have to convince me.

BTW, I’ve yet to see any of those styles, played at Mass, even when I was playing in a group, at my parish.

Jim

You forgot to add folk music and anything that sounds like it came from Simon and Garfunkel, Joan Baez, Joni Mitchell and Crosby, Stills and Nash. But, then again, that’s why we have the St.Louis Jesuits.

Oddly enough, Turn, Turn, Turn by the Birds is based, in part, on Ecclesiasticus, Sirach or Wisdom (I forgot which one). However, inasmuch as the lyrics are Biblical, the music is certainliy not fit for the Mass. I would shudder, cringe and die form heart failure if I heard that played at Mass. Or, worse yet, Spirit in the Sky.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You forgot to add folk music and anything that sounds like it came from Simon and Garfunkel, Joan Baez, Joni Mitchell and Crosby, Stills and Nash. But, then again, that’s why we have the St.Louis Jesuits.

Oddly enough, Turn, Turn, Turn by the Birds is based, in part, on Ecclesiasticus, Sirach or Wisdom (I forgot which one). However, inasmuch as the lyrics are Biblical, the music is certainliy not fit for the Mass. I would shudder, cringe and die form heart failure if I heard that played at Mass. Or, worse yet, Spirit in the Sky.

No, I didn’t forget to add folk music, because folk music genre is subjective, and I never really heard nor saw music used in the liturgy that comes from the genre of Joan Baez or any of the others you mentioned.

All the music I played and heard others play, came from the OP Glory and Praise Hymnal, or from the misslets, in our church pews.

We also used some of John Michael Talbot’s music. "Holy Is His Name, " was and is, one of my favorites.

Jim

 

[Scottgun]

Yes, there are unaccpetable music regardless of the orthodoxy of the lyrics. Most would recognize that gangsta rap and death metal don’t belong in the liturgy based on the sheer ugliness of it. What many may not recognize however, is that sentimental slop (the 70’s stuff) does not belong in there either because it is straight out of therapeutic consumer culture. Therapy is about the self, and worship is about the other. That is, God.

 

[Wolseley]

Jim, what if somebody said that music in one of those styles was conducive for worship and prayer, for them? What would you say to them?

I’d ask them to consider the scenario of someone else insisting that for him, German marching music was conducive for prayer and worship.

Then I’d ask him how comfortable he’d feel sitting in Mass while Panzerlied was being played with Christian lyrics and a group of liturgical dancers goose-stepped down the main aisle, brandishing stiff-armed salutes to the crucifix up front.

I mean, hey, if any style of music is appropriate, this should not be objectionable, right?

 

[VociMike]

I’d ask them to consider the scenario of someone else insisting that for him, German marching music was conducive for prayer and worship.

Then I’d ask him how comfortable he’d feel sitting in Mass while Panzerlied was being played with Christian lyrics and a group of liturgical dancers goose-stepped down the main aisle, brandishing stiff-armed salutes to the crucifix up front.

I mean, hey, if any style of music is appropriate, this should not be objectionable, right?

Well, disregarding the Nazi stuff, what if there were a community of people who claimed that music in such a style, with suitable lyrics, was conducive for prayer and worship? Would it just come down to “Yes it is!”, “No it isn’t!”, “Yes it is!”, “No it isn’t!”?

Or, are there objective, authoritative standards that one could point to and say “this music does not come up to these standards”?

 

[Wolseley]

Sure there are. There are Vatican documents referring to pipe organs and Gregorian chant being proper to Latin rite, for example, but good luck trying to get anybody to agree to that.

 

[VociMike]

Sure there are. There are Vatican documents referring to pipe organs and Gregorian chant being proper to Latin rite, for example, but good luck trying to get anybody to agree to that.

Well that’s just it. People are quick to point out that the Church does not mandate chant, polyphony, organ. The Church allows other music as well. So how is one to draw the line, or is it impossible to draw the line? How is it ever possible to say “my preferred style of music is OK, but yours is not”?

 

[benedictgal]

Well that’s just it. People are quick to point out that the Church does not mandate chant, polyphony, organ. The Church allows other music as well. So how is one to draw the line, or is it impossible to draw the line? How is it ever possible to say “my preferred style of music is OK, but yours is not”?

But, I think that if you were to listen to the new service music that will be sung for World Youth Day 2008, you will find that there is a huge shift in the style. It is a quasi-Gregorian style, complete with an organ. This is certainly markedly different from what we heard from the Cologne WYD broadcast.

While the Church may allow for other music, even Pope Benedict XVI has been quick to point out that not one song is as good as another when it comes to the liturgy. There are some who may not want to realize it, but Sacred Music is not a free-for-all. In fact, in his Chirograph on Sacred Music, John Paul II said that current liturgical music needs to be purified, much like it had to be when St. Pius X reigned as Supreme Pontiff.

 

[Lepanto]

But, I think that if you were to listen to the new service music that will be sung for World Youth Day 2008, you will find that there is a huge shift in the style. It is a quasi-Gregorian style, complete with an organ. This is certainly markedly different from what we heard from the Cologne WYD broadcast.

I’d like to think this will be the case but I’m skeptical. After so many rock concert youth day masses and events, I can only be jaded despite the new pontiff.

It’ll be interesting to see how the music at his Mass at Yankee Stadium is done.

 

[benedictgal]

I’d like to think this will be the case but I’m skeptical. After so many rock concert youth day masses and events, I can only be jaded despite the new pontiff.

It’ll be interesting to see how the music at his Mass at Yankee Stadium is done.

I have heard it, and Lepanto, with you having read my posts and knowing how much of a stickler I am about music, I must admit that this is pretty good stuff. I wish I could remember the link so that you could hear it. WYD 2008 will be a much improved version and will set the standard for youth Masses.

 

[Lepanto]

I have heard it, and Lepanto, with you having read my posts and knowing how much of a stickler I am about music, I must admit that this is pretty good stuff. I wish I could remember the link so that you could hear it. WYD 2008 will be a much improved version and will set the standard for youth Masses.

OK, please let us know if there is a website previewing it or something.

I trust your judgment just fine, BG, it’s the liturgists making the decisions that I’m not sure about. I know that Benedict changed his MC, so hopefully that’s the silver bullit that does the job.

 

[benedictgal]

OK, please let us know if there is a website previewing it or something.

I trust your judgment just fine, BG, it’s the liturgists making the decisions that I’m not sure about. I know that Benedict changed his MC, so hopefully that’s the silver bullit that does the job.

You gave me a mission and before my tape self-destructs, I have completed it. Here is the website:

wyd2008.org/index.php/en/australian_parishes_schools/wyd08_mass_setting/(offset)/10

I am just now downloading the Gloria (I heard it at the office) and from the sounds of it, it’s pretty good and an improvement over the 2005 version. I don’t know if you remember the broadcast, but the look on the Holy Father’s face as the camera cut to him during the music was priceless. He was rather stoic (moreso than he usually appears) and seemed to just want the song to die a quick death (they also had some sort of bongo-tribal thing going, even though the texts were in Latin).

 

[Lepanto]

You gave me a mission and before my tape self-destructs, I have completed it. Here is the website:

wyd2008.org/index.php/en/australian_parishes_schools/wyd08_mass_setting/(offset)/10

I am just now downloading the Gloria (I heard it at the office) and from the sounds of it, it’s pretty good and an improvement over the 2005 version. I don’t know if you remember the broadcast, but the look on the Holy Father’s face as the camera cut to him during the music was priceless. He was rather stoic (moreso than he usually appears) and seemed to just want the song to die a quick death (they also had some sort of bongo-tribal thing going, even though the texts were in Latin).

Thanks, BG. I listened to a couple. So far so good. You’ve given me hope!

 

[benedictgal]

Thanks, BG. I listened to a couple. So far so good. You’ve given me hope!

The only thing that disappointed me was that the Aussies went ahead and wrote the setting for Christ has died…, as opposed to the other options. But, even this one sounded okay. I was hoping that they would get rid of that one because it addressed the Lord in the third person, rather in the second. Oh well, maybe ICEL will get it right.

 

[brycelaliberte]

I think its a matter of popular opinion within the group. If it were a bunch of teens, then perhaps for them it would be entirely possible to worship God with a rock song (with Christian lyrics, of course). If it were a more mixed group, that might not be so appropriate.

One should look forward to worshiping God with others. If they are able to have a group, then why can they not worship God in a way they enjoy? Certainly Jesus could appreciate the joy in all earnest worship. Whether it be a Gregorian chant, or someone screaming their lungs out, worship is worship.