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Lilsheep88
Guest
I am not talking about pirated DVDs, but more like physical items such as fake LV wallets, fake nike shoes, fake branded stuff. Knockoff things.
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bmullins
Guest
The answer is in which type of fake are you talking about? Are you talking about a licensed fake that the name brand is aware of and supports? Or are you talking about an illegal fake from the back of a shady truck, where the original brand doesn’t know about it at all. One is theft, the other is simply a purchase.
If it says ‘designer inspired’ it’s usually a legal knock-off, if it says “Nike” on it and it’s not really a Nike shoe, then it’s illegal. There is a lot of legal mumbo jumbo involved, but for me, if I know it’s a fake, and I know it’s not supported by the parent company, then yes, it’s a sin.
If it says ‘designer inspired’ it’s usually a legal knock-off, if it says “Nike” on it and it’s not really a Nike shoe, then it’s illegal. There is a lot of legal mumbo jumbo involved, but for me, if I know it’s a fake, and I know it’s not supported by the parent company, then yes, it’s a sin.
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Lilsheep88
Guest
For instance, a jacket that was printed out to look like the original. Imitations.
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bmullins
Guest
If it’s counterfeit, then yes it’s illegal and a sin.
If you’re unaware it’s counterfeit when you purchased it and bought it in good faith, then it’s fine. If you know it’s an illegal knockoff and buy it then, yes, it’s a sin.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfeit_consumer_goods
If you’re unaware it’s counterfeit when you purchased it and bought it in good faith, then it’s fine. If you know it’s an illegal knockoff and buy it then, yes, it’s a sin.
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Lilsheep88
Guest
This really sucks. so what now?
I have to throw away all my fake stuff then if I dont want to go to purgatory?
I have a couple of fake lacoste shirts, fake Nike shoes fake addidas jackets.
I have to throw away all my fake stuff then if I dont want to go to purgatory?
I have a couple of fake lacoste shirts, fake Nike shoes fake addidas jackets.
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bmullins
Guest
I dunno that you have to throw them away. I’d go and talk to my priest. There are many things to consider: Did you know it was a sin when you did it? Did you know they were knock offs when you bought them? etc.
I would simply talk to my confessor and let him know the situation and ask him if there is a penance or not. Then go from there. Then in the future I would avoid counterfeit items.
I would simply talk to my confessor and let him know the situation and ask him if there is a penance or not. Then go from there. Then in the future I would avoid counterfeit items.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
:thumbsup:Good advice. When in doubt, talk to a priest.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
When I was in high school, clothes were “important” (this much has not changed). The king of fashion in the late 70’s, early 80’s was Levis. Originally a maker of blue jeans, the company had diversified into other clothing, especially shirts. The customary red-orange Levis tag was sewn into the seam of the shirt pocket of each Levis shirt, the same as it was (and is) sewn into the seam of the right rear pocket of each pair of Levis blue jeans.
Levis jeans were a good value, and my family bought them almostly exclusively. But the new line of shirts was overpriced - often double or tripple the cost of a similar shirt (in make and quality) from other stores. You paid a lot for that Levi’s tag in your shirt, and I refused to be extorted in that manner. I never once bought a Levi’s shirt, but I felt the “peer pressure” to wear this particular brand of shirt.
One day I noticed that we had a lot of Levis “shorts” around the house. Levis did not make shorts, but when we blew the knees out of our jeans, we cut the legs off to make “cutoff” shorts, which were relegated to yard work, etc. But each pair of cutoffs had the coveted Levis tag still sewn into the hem of the right back pocket.
So, with an X-Acto knife and a bit of basic sewing skill, I transplanted the coveted tags from the worthless cutoff shorts to the seam of my shirt pockets. The ruse was flawless - not even I could detect the justiposition. Even my own mother was astonished when she noticed the Levis tag on a shirt - a shirt that she had bought for me (and not in a Levis store).
Did I sin? I did not buy a fake item - I made a fake item (though one which did not resemble in any way a legitimate Levis item, apart from the transplanted tag). I took a tag - a small piece of fabric (which I had bought and paid for) and sewed it to another piece of fabric (which I had bought and paid for). I thus created a hybrid garmet of my own construction that appeared to have been made by one manufacturer, when it was really made by another.
It was a deliberate deception, motivated by vanity and a desire to “fit in” with my teenage peers. So it was probably a sin. But I had never thought about confessing this.
Levis jeans were a good value, and my family bought them almostly exclusively. But the new line of shirts was overpriced - often double or tripple the cost of a similar shirt (in make and quality) from other stores. You paid a lot for that Levi’s tag in your shirt, and I refused to be extorted in that manner. I never once bought a Levi’s shirt, but I felt the “peer pressure” to wear this particular brand of shirt.
One day I noticed that we had a lot of Levis “shorts” around the house. Levis did not make shorts, but when we blew the knees out of our jeans, we cut the legs off to make “cutoff” shorts, which were relegated to yard work, etc. But each pair of cutoffs had the coveted Levis tag still sewn into the hem of the right back pocket.
So, with an X-Acto knife and a bit of basic sewing skill, I transplanted the coveted tags from the worthless cutoff shorts to the seam of my shirt pockets. The ruse was flawless - not even I could detect the justiposition. Even my own mother was astonished when she noticed the Levis tag on a shirt - a shirt that she had bought for me (and not in a Levis store).
Did I sin? I did not buy a fake item - I made a fake item (though one which did not resemble in any way a legitimate Levis item, apart from the transplanted tag). I took a tag - a small piece of fabric (which I had bought and paid for) and sewed it to another piece of fabric (which I had bought and paid for). I thus created a hybrid garmet of my own construction that appeared to have been made by one manufacturer, when it was really made by another.
It was a deliberate deception, motivated by vanity and a desire to “fit in” with my teenage peers. So it was probably a sin. But I had never thought about confessing this.
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DexUK
Guest
With respect to buying fakes/knock-offs I would say that it really depends on the impression the thing you’re buying is trying to create.
If it’s a forgery then it’s wrong because the item is trying to give the impression of being manufactured by a company when it hasn’t been. You’d be trying to have the ‘benefit’ of the expensive item without having paid what you should have done to have a genuine one.
So… I’d not buy a pair of supposedly Nike trainers sold by a “traveling salesman” on a street corner for 20% of the price of the genuine article because I could pretty much guarantee that that’s not how Nike conduct business and they simply wouldn’t sell their branded items that cheap. Basically the rule that I would follow would be “if it looks too good to be true, it probably isn’t true”.
As others have said, if people are selling trainers that look similar (but not the same) to Nike designs and they are NOT branded as Nike, then it’s entirely up to you whether you buy them or not. Look at the computer world right now: Apple and Samsung are having a massive worldwide fight regarding whether Samsung’s tablet computer is a knock off of Apple’s proprietary design. Some courts think it is, others don’t.
In the “similar looking item” situation, it’s not your problem and you’re not sinning by buying it. In the “forgery” situation, I’d steer well clear, since a forgery is, essentially, something that’s pirated: it’s a design that rightfully belongs to someone else and the benefit of your buying the item should go to the rightful owner of its design and not the person that’s forging it.
Now as to the gravity of continuing to own things that you purchased in the past… I would say that’s less of a problem since unless you bought them with full knowledge and deliberation about their forged or counterfeit status, then you’re probably ok. If you DID have that knowledge, then you are, to a degree, in receipt of something that is, at least, partially stolen (i.e. the design of it). I wouldn’t feel comfortable keeping it. Others might differ.
This isn’t an easy determination to make since every item you own will belong to a slightly different category. You are, however, clearly trying to make a thorough examination of your conscience and evaluation of your life up until now. That is highly commendable. I’d say that for each of the items in question that you have, trust in your conscience about the item. Don’t try to double think stuff or find excuses why such-and-such is or isn’t a good idea to keep. Just consider the facts and go with what your conscience tells you. If you honestly don’t know what an answer should be, then keep the thing since you can’t mortally sin without full knowledge.
If it’s a forgery then it’s wrong because the item is trying to give the impression of being manufactured by a company when it hasn’t been. You’d be trying to have the ‘benefit’ of the expensive item without having paid what you should have done to have a genuine one.
So… I’d not buy a pair of supposedly Nike trainers sold by a “traveling salesman” on a street corner for 20% of the price of the genuine article because I could pretty much guarantee that that’s not how Nike conduct business and they simply wouldn’t sell their branded items that cheap. Basically the rule that I would follow would be “if it looks too good to be true, it probably isn’t true”.
As others have said, if people are selling trainers that look similar (but not the same) to Nike designs and they are NOT branded as Nike, then it’s entirely up to you whether you buy them or not. Look at the computer world right now: Apple and Samsung are having a massive worldwide fight regarding whether Samsung’s tablet computer is a knock off of Apple’s proprietary design. Some courts think it is, others don’t.
In the “similar looking item” situation, it’s not your problem and you’re not sinning by buying it. In the “forgery” situation, I’d steer well clear, since a forgery is, essentially, something that’s pirated: it’s a design that rightfully belongs to someone else and the benefit of your buying the item should go to the rightful owner of its design and not the person that’s forging it.
Now as to the gravity of continuing to own things that you purchased in the past… I would say that’s less of a problem since unless you bought them with full knowledge and deliberation about their forged or counterfeit status, then you’re probably ok. If you DID have that knowledge, then you are, to a degree, in receipt of something that is, at least, partially stolen (i.e. the design of it). I wouldn’t feel comfortable keeping it. Others might differ.
This isn’t an easy determination to make since every item you own will belong to a slightly different category. You are, however, clearly trying to make a thorough examination of your conscience and evaluation of your life up until now. That is highly commendable. I’d say that for each of the items in question that you have, trust in your conscience about the item. Don’t try to double think stuff or find excuses why such-and-such is or isn’t a good idea to keep. Just consider the facts and go with what your conscience tells you. If you honestly don’t know what an answer should be, then keep the thing since you can’t mortally sin without full knowledge.
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Newbie2
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DexUK
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Another thought has occurred to me…
Even if keeping some (or all) of the items turns out not to be mortally sinful or even particularly venially sinful, you might like to consider whether possessing them is virtuous. That is to say, if you were to divest yourself of them (in a sensible way), would you feel that that increased your own sense of virtue?
It might be that keeping them meant they represented a sort of attachment to sin (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=21267). Obviously that is quite a refined position to take and you might have to be in reasonable control of any tendency to scrupulosity before you can make a good judgement on that, but it’s worth having a think about.
Even if keeping some (or all) of the items turns out not to be mortally sinful or even particularly venially sinful, you might like to consider whether possessing them is virtuous. That is to say, if you were to divest yourself of them (in a sensible way), would you feel that that increased your own sense of virtue?
It might be that keeping them meant they represented a sort of attachment to sin (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=21267). Obviously that is quite a refined position to take and you might have to be in reasonable control of any tendency to scrupulosity before you can make a good judgement on that, but it’s worth having a think about.
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Lilsheep88
Guest
Greetings again Dex 
Since we had that last discussion about pirated MP3s and Torrents… I have had a disdain for anything counterfeit or pirated. Although Ill be honest there are some files I decided to keep, but I have my personal reasons for that.
And in reference to your last thread (the one relating to virtue)… Its a headphone and I really need it for personal use. I dont really know if I can judge if it is virtuous or not.
Here is the story (reposted from spirtuality).
Today, I was at my campus and I picked up a set of new Dr. Dre headphones for $150 from a side vendor. These usually retail for $250 plus and being too good to be true for the price, I went out and bought it without second thinking that it would be fake… I had a slight feeling that there was something iffy about it since it was too good for the price. It looked real, and it fit like the real thing. There was an urgency to buy because I knew for this price, it would be gone by the day so I went to the atm, withdrew some cash and sealed the deal.
An hour later I come home and my brother inspects it, being a techy and all, then he tells me its a knock off / a fake. I dont mind using it, since it looks real and works like the real thing… I didnt think twice though… I saw a good deal and I bought it on impulse, like any rational human being.
Now whether I can return it or not. That I officially dont know. But I have already used the headphones (knowing full well that it is fake), ripped off the plastics and opened the box… additionalyI wont be in school until Monday next week. Well now that I know that it is really a knock off after doing all the research… Do I have an obligation to return the headphones or can I just keep it as it is? I doubt I can return it since it was a cash deal.
Since we had that last discussion about pirated MP3s and Torrents… I have had a disdain for anything counterfeit or pirated. Although Ill be honest there are some files I decided to keep, but I have my personal reasons for that.
And in reference to your last thread (the one relating to virtue)… Its a headphone and I really need it for personal use. I dont really know if I can judge if it is virtuous or not.
Here is the story (reposted from spirtuality).
Today, I was at my campus and I picked up a set of new Dr. Dre headphones for $150 from a side vendor. These usually retail for $250 plus and being too good to be true for the price, I went out and bought it without second thinking that it would be fake… I had a slight feeling that there was something iffy about it since it was too good for the price. It looked real, and it fit like the real thing. There was an urgency to buy because I knew for this price, it would be gone by the day so I went to the atm, withdrew some cash and sealed the deal.
An hour later I come home and my brother inspects it, being a techy and all, then he tells me its a knock off / a fake. I dont mind using it, since it looks real and works like the real thing… I didnt think twice though… I saw a good deal and I bought it on impulse, like any rational human being.
Now whether I can return it or not. That I officially dont know. But I have already used the headphones (knowing full well that it is fake), ripped off the plastics and opened the box… additionalyI wont be in school until Monday next week. Well now that I know that it is really a knock off after doing all the research… Do I have an obligation to return the headphones or can I just keep it as it is? I doubt I can return it since it was a cash deal.
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Lilsheep88
Guest
If you go to chinatowns (or other similar places) , youll notice there are alot of fake items, such as fake nikes shoes, fake iphones, fake addidas jackets and I’m not gonna lie do have a couple. I even have a couple of fake lacoste shirts.
But can you tell me how buying “forged items” is really a “sin”? Does the copyright law principle apply again as if it were mp3s?
If anything, I believe that the vendors are at fault and not me. They sold the goods to me, I paid for them. So if they are getting their supply from a questionable source, then thats their problem, not the consumers, dont you think?
Which category would that sin fall under? Theft?
Because once again, the consumer paid his end of the bargain and did not, I repeat, did not deprive anybody of their property.
But can you tell me how buying “forged items” is really a “sin”? Does the copyright law principle apply again as if it were mp3s?
If anything, I believe that the vendors are at fault and not me. They sold the goods to me, I paid for them. So if they are getting their supply from a questionable source, then thats their problem, not the consumers, dont you think?
Which category would that sin fall under? Theft?
Because once again, the consumer paid his end of the bargain and did not, I repeat, did not deprive anybody of their property.
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DexUK
Guest
Your culpability depends on the level of knowledge you had when you purchased the items.
If you were pretty darn sure the thing was a counterfeit and you went ahead and bought it anyway, then yes, I’d say you sinned by having the benefit but denying the rightful recipient of the reward for providing you that benefit.
With regard to your headphones, I’d say you almost certainly got sold something that was significantly below the quality of the real thing. I would expect that in creating such counterfeits the people making them would have used throughout their own manufacturing process substandard materials and methods, otherwise how would they afford to sell at such a discounted price?
The sin in this case? I don’t know if it’s mortal or not, but I’d say there were certain elements of covetousness involved, it probably constitutes an element of theft (denying reward to the rightful recipient), etc. Consider this as well: if you were to take these items abroad and Customs officials were to examine your luggage for any reason, it might be that they’d pick up the fact that you were carrying counterfeits. In such situations you might end up with them being confiscated. It happens. It’s probably not very likely, but if they can do such a thing do you think you should take the risk of purchasing such items when if that happens you not only don’t have a genuine article but you’d also lose the money you paid to the forger in the first place as well?
As for copyright law, I’d say it certainly does apply, both legally and morally. As I mentioned earlier, in real life there’s plenty of lawsuits flying around regarding Apple and Samsung, where Apple has been alleging infringements of its patented (which is just another form of copyright) designs what with Samsung allegedly ‘passing off’ its own products as looking so close in design to Apple’s that some people might not be able to tell the difference at first glance and winning some court cases as a result.
I can’t tell you if you’ve sinned mortally. I honestly don’t know. That’s why I suggested you be honest with yourself when you consider the various items and follow the promptings of your conscience. If you genuinely don’t know if something’s a mortal sin or not, then despite what other people might think, it won’t be mortally sinful for you.
How to go forward? I’d suggest a ‘firm purpose of amendment’ to live your life by expressing your honesty better in all you do, which means buying the real thing in future, even if it means saving up a bit longer for it.
If you were pretty darn sure the thing was a counterfeit and you went ahead and bought it anyway, then yes, I’d say you sinned by having the benefit but denying the rightful recipient of the reward for providing you that benefit.
With regard to your headphones, I’d say you almost certainly got sold something that was significantly below the quality of the real thing. I would expect that in creating such counterfeits the people making them would have used throughout their own manufacturing process substandard materials and methods, otherwise how would they afford to sell at such a discounted price?
The sin in this case? I don’t know if it’s mortal or not, but I’d say there were certain elements of covetousness involved, it probably constitutes an element of theft (denying reward to the rightful recipient), etc. Consider this as well: if you were to take these items abroad and Customs officials were to examine your luggage for any reason, it might be that they’d pick up the fact that you were carrying counterfeits. In such situations you might end up with them being confiscated. It happens. It’s probably not very likely, but if they can do such a thing do you think you should take the risk of purchasing such items when if that happens you not only don’t have a genuine article but you’d also lose the money you paid to the forger in the first place as well?
As for copyright law, I’d say it certainly does apply, both legally and morally. As I mentioned earlier, in real life there’s plenty of lawsuits flying around regarding Apple and Samsung, where Apple has been alleging infringements of its patented (which is just another form of copyright) designs what with Samsung allegedly ‘passing off’ its own products as looking so close in design to Apple’s that some people might not be able to tell the difference at first glance and winning some court cases as a result.
I can’t tell you if you’ve sinned mortally. I honestly don’t know. That’s why I suggested you be honest with yourself when you consider the various items and follow the promptings of your conscience. If you genuinely don’t know if something’s a mortal sin or not, then despite what other people might think, it won’t be mortally sinful for you.
How to go forward? I’d suggest a ‘firm purpose of amendment’ to live your life by expressing your honesty better in all you do, which means buying the real thing in future, even if it means saving up a bit longer for it.
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Joe_5859
Guest
If buying counterfeit items was legitimate, they would be sold in regular retailers, not from guys off the street.
Personally, I’d never feel comfortable paying cash for an electronic item from a guy off the street. You have no recourse should the item be defective. And if it’s not counterfeit, it could be stolen. I’d rather just wait till the price drops on Amazon.
Of course, it’s too late for that for you.
I would be extremely surprised if they would accept returns.Ask your priest about it. It seems like you acted in good faith but simply got swindled. You may not be obligated to throw it away, but definitely use this as a learning experience: Don’t buy stuff from shady guys off the street!
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LittleBits
Guest
It is certainly not a sin to buy counterfeit or “knock off” items, why would it be? Not everyone can afford $600 for a Burberry scarf…
Take my sitiuation for example, I LOVE Burberry, and I want a Burberry unmbrella and scarf. I am willing to save and pay for the umbrella, but the scarf is just too overpriced. So I am going to look for another scarf with that pattern and buy it.
In order for any company to make a “knock off” of a designer, they have to have the designer’s permission and pay certain royalties to them. It is not as though you are stealing anything, you are paying for an item you want…
Take my sitiuation for example, I LOVE Burberry, and I want a Burberry unmbrella and scarf. I am willing to save and pay for the umbrella, but the scarf is just too overpriced. So I am going to look for another scarf with that pattern and buy it.
In order for any company to make a “knock off” of a designer, they have to have the designer’s permission and pay certain royalties to them. It is not as though you are stealing anything, you are paying for an item you want…
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LittleBits
Guest
They do sell so-called “counterfeit” items in retail stores. I used to be the mgr of Sunglass Hut, and there was a kiosk in the mall that had sunglasses that looked just like our glasses which sold for up to $1,000.00… Macy’s has a scarf that looks just like the Burberry umbrella I want so badly. I wanted a pair of Ugz for Christmas, but wasn’t prepared to pay $300.00 for shoes that can only be worn during one season, so I went to Kohls and found a pair that looks EXACTLY like Ugz and paid less than $30.00 for them…If buying counterfeit items was legitimate, they would be sold in regular retailers, not from guys off the street.
Personally, I’d never feel comfortable paying cash for an electronic item from a guy off the street. You have no recourse should the item be defective. And if it’s not counterfeit, it could be stolen. I’d rather just wait till the price drops on Amazon.
Of course, it’s too late for that for you.
Ask your priest about it. It seems like you acted in good faith but simply got swindled. You may not be obligated to throw it away, but definitely use this as a learning experience: Don’t buy stuff from shady guys off the street!
Now when you mention buying from ppl off the street, I am completely in line with you. As a retail mgr, whenever I am on the bus/subway/light rail or walking down the street and someone tries to sell me something, I always ask “can I see your receipt please?”
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Joe_5859
Guest
I think we need to clarify the distinction between “counterfeit” and “imitations”.
Imitation drives the marketplace. Apple comes out with the iPod; every company and their brother comes out with a portable mp3 player. Coke comes out with a new kind of soda; every company and their brother comes out with a similar one. Wii Sports is a successful video game; every company and their brother tries to duplicate it and even package it with similar artwork. Etc., etc.
This is nothing new and there is nothing wrong with it (assuming of course that the producers of those products are operating within the confines of all applicable laws).
Counterfeit is altogether different. That is making a product just like the original and deceptively trying to pass it off as though it is the real thing. The OP mentioned his specific example where he legitimately thought he was purchasing a specific name-brand piece of electronics. Presumably, this is because it was labeled and packaged just like the real thing. That is not right.
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Jesusismyfriend
Guest
I never thought of that. I bought some brushes on Ebay that claimed to be Mac. I knew they weren’t Mac, but I didn’t expect them to be Mac. I just wanted some reasonable brushes that were made with real horsehair. I would never tell a friend they were Mac. I am only glad I found something of decent quality for a good price. But technically, if people are being mislead into believing they are Mac, it is probably not right to support the company that made them.
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
Ok, I have one for you. I am so morally opposed to diamonds. The whole industry is immoral and disgusting. I refuse to buy or wear them. I do have a lot of jewelry that is made with diamond simulants that make it look like I paid De Beers too much money. Even my engagement ring is moissanite (at my request). Its beautiful and only cost about 1K. A comparable diamond ring would have been about 7K. Now, when I’m complimented on it I always say that it isn’t a diamond, because I’m proud that I have an ethical ring and I want others to see how pretty it is and realize that they don’t have to throw money away on something so horrible. But, if I did pass it off as a diamond would that be wrong?
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