Are cafeteria Catholics a different religion since they hold to a different definition of what it means to be Catholic?

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livingwordunity

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There are many today who identify as Catholic but who define what it means to be a good Catholic in a radically different way than what is taught by the Magisterium. For example, calling abortion a right, believing in so-called “same-sex marriage”, etc. These can include Catholics who go to Mass every Sunday. When a Catholic leaves the church and registers in a Protestant denomination they are no longer considered a Catholic. What about when someone has Protestant-like beliefs, rejecting the authority of the Magisterium, but continuing to go through the physical motions of going to Mass every Sunday while believing or at least still claiming they are Catholic? Some of these are prominent politicians who even claim on top of this to be a “Catholic in good standing” while ignoring repeated admonitions from their bishop.
 
I would consider them uninformed Catholics–uninformed in the sense that they do not know the reason why the Church teaches as it does on a particular issue.
 
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." - Matt. 7:15

“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves." - Matt. 10:16

“Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves.” - Lk 10:3

“I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock” -Acts 20:29

“Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons” - 1 Tim 4:1

“For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings” - 2 Tim 4:3
 
No, even though I don’t see why they just become Episcopalian. I respect their Church, and all they’ve done for people, but the whole thing is Cafeteria Catholicism II: Anglican and Fabulous.
 
livingwordunity said:
When a Catholic leaves the church and registers in a Protestant denomination they are no longer considered a Catholic.
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This is incorrect. A Catholic is Catholic by virtue of their Baptism. They may fall away and stop practicing and/or start practicing something else. But they are always considered Catholic.

I think we need to spend more time catechizing people on the truths of the Catholic faith and less time trying to figure out who we can kick out of the club.
 
Joe_5859 said:
I think we need to spend more time catechizing people on the truths of the Catholic faith and less time trying to figure out who we can kick out of the club.
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This. Reminds me of an experience I had just yesterday. Conversation with a woman who spends her time with refugees, is a daily Mass attendee and lector, overall a lovely lady and quite by-the-book Catholic.

Then the conversation quickly shifts to gossip about how embarrassing the Jesuits are to the Church and how she was “not sure” whether the Holy Father would make St. Ignatius of Loyola proud. Sure, individual Jesuit priests have spoken wrongly, but individual people have spoken wrongly and done wrong everywhere. This includes me of course!

Those of us who take the faith seriously need to not get caught up in looking at ourselves and praising God that we’re not like the sinners who don’t acknowledge Rome’s authority over their lives. That’s Pharisaical. Let’s focus on our own weaknesses and how we can use our gifts win over souls.
 
livingwordunity said:
When a Catholic leaves the church and registers in a Protestant denomination they are no longer considered a Catholic.
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Joe_5859 said:
This is incorrect. A Catholic is Catholic by virtue of their Baptism. They may fall away and stop practicing and/or start practicing something else. But they are always considered Catholic.

I think we need to spend more time catechizing people on the truths of the Catholic faith and less time trying to figure out who we can kick out of the club.
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I’m not trying to kick anyone out. I asked an objective question that is reasonable considering the apparent contradiction of claiming to be Catholic while having a contradictory definition of what it means to be Catholic. What you are basically saying is “Don’t ask questions. They are Catholic whether it makes sense or not.” Do you think there’s nothing wrong with Catholic politicians going publicly against the bishops while claiming to be “a Catholic in good standing”? I wasn’t asking if their baptism is still valid but whether or not they are of the same religion in a practical sense. I did some research since starting this thread, and although it’s not possible for someone who was validly baptized to lose the mark of baptism, it is possible for someone to no longer be considered a Catholic although this requires extreme measures and conditions which combine a valid juridical act with an interior apostasy or heresy from the faith. So the answer to my OP question is basically no since even though the person may have apostatized in beliefs, they continue to receive the sacraments and did not combine their apostasy of beliefs with a formal juridical act of defection.
 
Jesus said:
“The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”
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Many in the history of the Church have wanted a “pure” Church and left to found one (e.g. Donatists, Montanists, Cathars, SSPX) but the Church is not a hotel for saints, but a hospital for sinners. Those who claim to be Catholics in good standing and are not, will find themselves bundled to be burned. For the time being all we can do is try to convert them. I will grant you, however, that it is annoying when dissenters claim to be Catholics (e.g Nancy Pelosi, Mario Cuomo, et. al.) God Bless.
 
livingwordunity said:
I’m not trying to kick anyone out. I asked an objective question that is reasonable considering the apparent contradiction of claiming to be Catholic while having a contradictory definition of what it means to be Catholic. What you are basically saying is “Don’t ask questions. They are Catholic whether it makes sense or not.” Do you think there’s nothing wrong with Catholic politicians going publicly against the bishops while claiming to be “a Catholic in good standing”? I wasn’t asking if their baptism is still valid but whether or not they are of the same religion in a practical sense. I did some research since starting this thread, and although it’s not possible for someone who was validly baptized to lose the mark of baptism, it is possible through extreme measures which combine a valid juridical act with an interior apostasy or heresy from the faith.
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If the Church started doing what you suggest, how far should they carry it? Should a person whose unorthodox views are known be treated differently than those whose views are never made public? Do we take it to the parish, and post a sign at the entrance warning anyone who holds views contrary to the teachings of the Church on a list of social issues that they are not welcome anymore? To do that would leave many empty pews.

Do we require every Catholic to sign an oath, or at least every Catholic who serves as an employee or volunteer role in their parish or diocese? That’s been tried here and there, and not with good results. If that was done on a wholesale basis, many parishes would have a difficult time functioning, and a lot of divisiveness and animosity would occur.

I have to agree with ***Joe 5859 ***and others on this. The problem is mostly due to the poor catechesis of many Catholics and the fact that most are “born” into the Church and are never required or expected to have a solid grounding in their faith.
 
livingwordunity said:
I’m not trying to kick anyone out. I asked an objective question that is reasonable considering the apparent contradiction of claiming to be Catholic while having a contradictory definition of what it means to be Catholic. What you are basically saying is “Don’t ask questions. They are Catholic whether it makes sense or not.” Do you think there’s nothing wrong with Catholic politicians going publicly against the bishops while claiming to be “a Catholic in good standing”? I wasn’t asking if their baptism is still valid but whether or not they are of the same religion in a practical sense. I did some research since starting this thread, and although it’s not possible for someone who was validly baptized to lose the mark of baptism, it is possible for someone to no longer be considered a Catholic although this requires extreme measures and conditions which combine a valid juridical act with an interior apostasy or heresy from the faith. So the answer to my OP question is basically no since even though the person may have apostatized in beliefs, they continue to receive the sacraments and did not combine their apostasy of beliefs with a formal juridical act of defection.
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My last comment was more of a general comment. It wasn’t directed at you in particular.

It was probably presumptuous of me to tack on that general observation to your particular question. After a while in these threads, I start to feel like we’re more concerned with kicking people out than bringing them in. Mea culpa. :o
 
livingwordunity said:
There are many today who identify as Catholic but who define what it means to be a good Catholic in a radically different way than what is taught by the Magisterium. For example, calling abortion a right, believing in so-called “same-sex marriage”, etc. These can include Catholics who go to Mass every Sunday. When a Catholic leaves the church and registers in a Protestant denomination they are no longer considered a Catholic. What about when someone has Protestant-like beliefs, rejecting the authority of the Magisterium, but continuing to go through the physical motions of going to Mass every Sunday while believing or at least still claiming they are Catholic? Some of these are prominent politicians who even claim on top of this to be a “Catholic in good standing” while ignoring repeated admonitions from their bishop.
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There are living members of the Mystical Body of Christ and there are dead members, i.e., spiritually dead. It is to be feared that catholics who are not practicing their faith are dead members of the Church. We need to prary for them.
 
chaunceygardner said:
If the Church started doing what you suggest
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I only asked the question. I didn’t call for them to be kicked out. Are we not allowed to ever ask questions? Jesus said we have to beware of false prophets who will be among us and who will try to lead us astray. How are we to beware of this if we don’t ask questions when someone claims that seeking an abortion and believing in so-called “same-sex marriage” is compatible with being Catholic?
 
Because I have many family and friends who have turned their back on the Church I keep hoping that as long as they keep coming to Church that someday their conscience will change their point of view. I have had this happen to me and so I know it is possible. The Church has not done a good job of educating the faithful on the Truths they must follow to be a practicing Catholic and this is partly responsible for a lot of what you are discussing here. Many people continue to call themselves Catholic and yet not be for many reasons. If we keep them close, pray hard and leave the door open there is always hope for them to truly Come Home, I did and I was the queen of the cafeteria Catholics.
 
Joe_5859 said:
My last comment was more of a general comment. It wasn’t directed at you in particular.

It was probably presumptuous of me to tack on that general observation to your particular question. After a while in these threads, I start to feel like we’re more concerned with kicking people out than bringing them in. Mea culpa. :o
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I understand. No offense taken.
 
Haven’t you read Our Blessed Lord’s parable of the wheat and tares?
[[24]](http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=13&l=24#x) Another parable he proposed to them, saying: The kingdom of heaven is likened to a man that sowed good seeds in his field. [[25]](http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=13&l=25#x) But while men were asleep, his enemy came and oversowed cockle among the wheat and went his way. [[26]](http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=13&l=26#x) And when the blade was sprung up, and had brought forth fruit, then appeared also the cockle. [[27]](http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=13&l=27#x) And the servants of the goodman of the house coming said to him: Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it cockle? [[28]](http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=13&l=28#x) And he said to them: An enemy hath done this. And the servants said to him: Wilt thou that we go and gather it up? [[29]](http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=13&l=29#x) And he said: No, lest perhaps gathering up the cockle, you root up the wheat also together with it. [[30]](http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=13&l=30#x) Suffer both to grow until the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up first the cockle, and bind it into bundles to burn, but the wheat gather ye into my barn.
 
Fairwinds said:
no, don’t be apologetic. there’s something to be said for purging the Faith of all sinners.
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Except that’s not what I said. We are all sinners, but we are not all heretics. Besides, the ones I describe in the OP don’t even admit to being sinners. They are the ones who say “I’m a Catholic in good standing”. I would never say that about myself, so whose the one that is self-righteous?
 
livingwordunity said:
Except that’s not what I said. We are all sinners, but we are not all heretics. Besides, the ones I describe in the OP don’t even admit to being sinners.
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no, seriously, I think you’re on to something. why should we allow these people in our church?
 
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