Are capitalistic and conservative ideals sinful?

[WillieWonka]

Willie, love thy neighbor as thyself is an extremely radical request, then and now. However, that is what Jesus asked of us.

We are all sinners and we obviously can’t live up to that all the time, but we could probably all make better efforts and I include myself. I think the call is to society as well as to the individual, certainly the Church itself feels called or it wouldn’t bother with any charities.

St. Lawrence said the poor ARE the treasure of the Church. Possibly he was on to something there.

Very nice. That tells us absolutely nothing about how to run a business or economy.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Very nice. That tells us absolutely nothing about how to run a business or economy.

It teaches us how to treat people. If people truly loved each other they would simply work together to build resources and they would work to gain equally from those resources. But instead man has chosen to compete for resources and comfort which has resulted in classes, poverty and war, rather then equality and peace.

 

[WillieWonka]

It teaches us how to treat people. If people truly loved each other they would simply work together to build resources and they would work to gain equally from those resources. But instead man has chosen to compete for resources and comfort which has resulted in classes, poverty and war, rather then equality and peace.

Very nice again. But that also tells us nothing about how to run a business or an economy.

 

[fish90]

The truth is that capitalism without an ethical foundation is wrong. Wealth will not be created nor will the common good be the focus.

God Bless

 

[MindOverMatter]

Very nice again. But that also tells us nothing about how to run a business or an economy.

We either exist to run businesses or we exist to do Gods will, which i assure is not to run businesses except in light of humanities progression as a whole as a response to moral law.

 

[WillieWonka]

The truth is that capitalism without an ethical foundation is wrong. Wealth will not be created nor will the common good be the focus.

God Bless

If that is the case, capitalism has an ethical foundation because it has created wealth and has created more prospertty for more people than any other system in history.

 

[WillieWonka]

We either exist to run businesses or we exist to do Gods will, which i assure is not to run businesses except in light of humanities progression as a whole as a response to moral law.

I’d say there are many more possibilities. Why limit it to just two? Expand your mind.

 

[WonderfulLife]

In dollars and cents, what is the living wage in the US today?

You keep asking this straw man question, as if there were a dollar and cent number that applies equally across the United States or even any state and as if I produced this number that somehow this would give you occasion to disprove that Jesus commanded us to love our neighbors as ourselves which applies also to paying wages.

As part of loving our neighbor, one of the commandments deals directly with wages. Thou shalt not steal. When economic and social conditions are used to coerce people into working for less than the value of the output of their own hands, it’s theft.

What is the value of a person’s labor? Well whatever it is, earning less than the cost of affordable housing in the region you work would be too low and earning $700 million for doing a poor job would be too high.

No number you could ‘disprove’ nor your attack on it would offer a defense for poisoning people for profit, or stealing the value of their labor, or creating so much social inequality that people die of unnecessary poverty related causes.

 

[WonderfulLife]

We either exist to run businesses or we exist to do Gods will, which i assure is not to run businesses except in light of humanities progression as a whole as a response to moral law.

Nicely put.

 

[WonderfulLife]

The truth is that capitalism without an ethical foundation is wrong. Wealth will not be created nor will the common good be the focus.

God Bless

I believe capitalism as defined by ‘greed is good’ is inherently unethical. Regulated capitalism with a concern for the overall good for society overriding it seems to be quite viable, however unregulated capitalism is nothing but social darwinism and implies that people have no inherent value.

I’ve been enjoying your posts.

 

[WillieWonka]

You keep asking this straw man question, as if there were a dollar and cent number that applies equally across the United States or even any state and as if I produced this number that somehow this would give you occasion to disprove that Jesus commanded us to love our neighbors as ourselves which applies also to paying wages.

As part of loving our neighbor, one of the commandments deals directly with wages. Thou shalt not steal. When economic and social conditions are used to coerce people into working for less than the value of the output of their own hands, it’s theft.

What is the value of a person’s labor? Well whatever it is, earning less than the cost of affordable housing in the region you work would be too low and earning $700 million for doing a poor job would be too high.

No number you could ‘disprove’ nor your attack on it would offer a defense for poisoning people for profit, or stealing the value of their labor, or creating so much social inequality that people die of unnecessary poverty related causes.

If you don’t know the amount of the living wage, then how do you know if it is being paid? If you don’t know that, then what are you talking about? Talk of a living wage simply becomes moral exhibitionism.

Nobody in this country is coerced into working for anyone. If you are aware of anyone being coerced, please call the police immediately. Now.

Affordable housing? What does that mean? How many miles from the work place are you talking about?

Value of labor? Value to whom? Measured how?

How on earth does social inequallity make people die? How and where are people in the US dying because of social inequality? Inequality became the buzzword for moralists when it became apparent too many people who claim poverty had plasma TVs and $100 sneakers. Poverty just didn’t work any more, so inequality became the popular meaningless complaint.

 

[WillieWonka]

I believe capitalism as defined by ‘greed is good’ is inherently unethical. Regulated capitalism with a concern for the overall good for society overriding it seems to be quite viable, however unregulated capitalism is nothing but social darwinism and implies that people have no inherent value.

I’ve been enjoying your posts.

Unregulated capitalism has never existed. Never.

Enforceable propery rights and enforceable contract rights must exist for capitalism to exist.

 

[WonderfulLife]

If you don’t know the amount of the living wage, then how do you know if it is being paid? If you don’t know that, then what are you talking about? Talk of a living wage simply becomes moral exhibitionism.

Nobody in this country is coerced into working for anyone. If you are aware of anyone being coerced, please call the police immediately. Now.

Affordable housing? What does that mean? How many miles from the work place are you talking about?

Value of labor? Value to whom? Measured how?

How on earth does social inequallity make people die? How and where are people in the US dying because of social inequality? Inequality became the buzzword for moralists when it became apparent too many people who claim poverty had plasma TVs and $100 sneakers. Poverty just didn’t work any more, so inequality became the popular meaningless complaint.

I’ll let you argue with the Church. Here:

CCC 2426

“2426 The development of economic activity and growth in production are meant to provide for the needs of human beings. Economic life is not meant solely to multiply goods produced and increase profit or power; it is ordered first of all to the service of persons, of the whole man, and of the entire human community. Economic activity, conducted according to its own proper methods, is to be exercised within the limits of the moral order, in keeping with social justice so as to correspond to God’s plan for man.”

CCC 2432

“Those responsible for business enterprises are responsible to society for the economic and ecological effects of their operations. 218 They have an obligation to consider the good of persons and not only the increase of profits. Profits are necessary, however. They make possible the investments that ensure the future of a business and they guarantee employment.”

CCC 2434

“A just wage is the legitimate fruit of work. To refuse or withhold it can be a grave injustice. 221 In determining fair pay both the needs and the contributions of each person must be taken into account. "Remuneration for work should guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family on the material, social, cultural and spiritual level, taking into account the role and the productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good.” 222 Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages."

 

[WonderfulLife]

"Relative Poverty Kills as Effectively as Any Disease"
economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2007/11/relative-povert.html

Low standards of child well-being linked to greater income inequality
eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-11/bmj-lso111607.php

 

[WonderfulLife]

living wage calculator:

livingwage.geog.psu.edu/

"In many American communities, families working in low-wage jobs make insufficient income to live locally given the local cost of living. Recently, in a number of high-cost communities, community organizers and citizens have successfully argued that the prevailing wage offered by the public sector and key businesses should reflect a wage rate required to meet minimum standards of living."

 

[Tsuwano]

If that is the case, capitalism has an ethical foundation because it has created wealth and has created more prospertty for more people than any other system in history.

This statement doesn’t make sense. A system isn’t judged ethical because it creates wealth. Slavery created weath, too, but it isn’t ethical.

 

[Tsuwano]

Unregulated capitalism has never existed. Never.

Enforceable propery rights and enforceable contract rights must exist for capitalism to exist.

You’re right, but underregulated capitalism has existed, as well as unethical definitions of what constitutes property and what owners can do with that property.

 

[WonderfulLife]

**CCC 2424 **

"A theory that makes profit the exclusive norm and ultimate end of economic activity is morally unacceptable. The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order.

A system that “subordinates the basic rights of individuals and of groups to the collective organization of production” is contrary to human dignity. Every practice that reduces persons to nothing more than a means of profit enslaves man, leads to idolizing money, and contributes to the spread of atheism. “You cannot serve God and mammon.”

There is the phrase that has seemed to stump people in context of the appropriate section of the Catechism. Clearly it refers to not paying the worker the value of his labor because the employer has ignored his workers’ humanity and reduced them to ‘cost of product’.

I think the Church is clear about this. If this concept doesn’t fit in with someone’s idea of capitalism and that person chooses capitalism over God, this section is pretty clear on that as well.

 

[Langdell]

The Question is, why would you try to defend the idea that they are rare?

Just to make sure we’re talking about the same thing, I think the circumstances in which cost cutting and lay offs would be immoral are rare.

I suppose one set of such circumstances would be someone who owns a business, who determines that his employees are unusually dependent on his business (maybe they’re all too old to get comparable jobs if they left), and who therefore decides to lower everyone’s salary by 10% so that he can make more for himself.

But I think such circumstances are rare. Maybe you have some particular abuse in mind?
.

 

[Langdell]

You’re right, I dont belong on this thread, I dont care about money. Its your problem.
I’ll fight for the people, you fight for the money…

I don’t understand why you’ve taken this tone. I simply observed, civilly, that I didn’t see the connection between some points you made. My hope was that you might explain.

I don’t think anyone here doesn’t care about people. The issues we’re discussing involve whether, and to what extent, capitalism may be inconsistent with Catholic concern for people’s spiritual well-being.
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