Are capitalistic and conservative ideals sinful?

[fish90]

Sure. Just show us where it is happening. And if capitalism as a system inflicts poverty, then show us where it is happening on a wdespread and systemic basis. And if it is systemic, perhaps you can expain why wages are not all $7.25/hour?

Capitalism fails to bring people out of poverty in the third world where there is no sufficient regulation. A lot of the time companies pay less than the poverty line with no respect for the worker. Sweatshops are one example.

 

[WillieWonka]

Property rights for the dignity of an individual or organization is one thing; especially for an organization that works for the holy good. But property rights at the expense and exclusion of human dignity and equality, is evil. And it is theft. All the resources in the earth, exist for the equal good and survival of all humanity.

What is a property right at the expense and exclusion of human dignity and equality? What does that mean?

Well, if all those resources exist for equal good and survival of humanity, can I have your car and computer?

 

[WillieWonka]

I meant to show with that example is that the disordered desire for money hurts others. Most business and usually the most successful ones do strive for certain principles that coincidentally relate to Christianity.

Look at today’s businesses. Sure capitalism pays more for better work, but that does not hold true with all workers. Why do part time workers get health insurance or are paid higher wages? My only answer is morality in the workplace.

Let’s say there is a car maker. They pay every plant worker minimal wage with no vacation (except the federally mandated ones!!!), sick time (except FMLA), zero raises (except when mandated), no breaks (except when mandated), and etc. Would you purchase a vehicle from them or the other company with a good business model that treats people as human beings not only workers?

My belief is that capitalism is a great economic policy that certainly has it faults. Capitalism still needs regulation to protect from those evil-doers (bad bosses, excessive speculation,etc) for the good of humanity.

That’s my opinion.

God Bless

There are no auto plants that pay every worker minimum wage. We can certinly make up scenarios to support any position. But those scenarios are not real, so they mean nothing outside the economics classroom.

Watch this:

Suppose a car maker pays every worker a million dollars per year and they all get company provided country club memberships and free cable TV. Well, since that doesn’t exist any more than your scenario exists, it tells us nothing.

 

[fish90]

There are no auto plants that pay every worker minimum wage. We can certinly make up scenarios to support any position. But those scenarios are not real, so they mean nothing outside the economics classroom.

Watch this:

Suppose a car maker pays every worker a million dollars per year and they all get company provided country club memberships and free cable TV. Well, since that doesn’t exist any more than your scenario exists, it tells us nothing.

Would you admit that capitalism needs morals in order to promote human dignity?

 

[WillieWonka]

Capitalism fails to bring people out of poverty in the third world where there is no sufficient regulation. A lot of the time companies pay less than the poverty line with no respect for the worker. Sweatshops are one example.

When China dropped communism and embraced capitalism, prosperity increased. India dropped socialism (work in process) and embraced capitalism and prosperity increased. Korea is a huge success. Taiwan. Spain. Malaysia…

These people are going to continue to pursue their own prosperity regardless of what moralists in other countries think they should do.

When firms open plants in 3rd world countries, people flock to the jobs, suppliers get contracts, and transportation increases. The nation usually keeps wages down so profits can be invested in more plants that employ more workers. It goes on and on and the country prospers.

The exception is when government corruption siphons off profits into Swiss bank accounts. Also when the legal system does not protect property rights and contracting rights. Using profits for feel-good projects also prevents growth that fuels more jobs and more prosperity.

Many places have tried the equalty route and they have failed.

The most dangerous thing on earth is the moralist who doesn’t know anything about economics but thinks he can run economies because he is holy.

 

[WillieWonka]

Would you admit that capitalism needs morals in order to promote human dignity?

I don’t think capitalism promotes human dignity. People do that. They can do that under any system. They can promote human dignity under capitalism, and they can not promote it under capitalism. Capitalism doesn’t have anythig to do with it.

And exactly what is human dignity?

 

[MindOverMatter]

Well, if all those resources exist for equal good and survival of humanity, can I have your car and computer?

Why not just share it? Why do you what it all for yourself

 

[buffalo]

We need to look first at the Catholic principle of subsidiarity.

 

[MindOverMatter]

We need to look first at the Catholic principle of subsidiarity.

lets do it.

 

[WillieWonka]

Why not just share it? Why do you what it all for yourself

Perhaps you hold onto your stuff just like everyone else does? Keeping your own personal profit for yourself? Not sending it to those 3rd world folks?

And perhaps capitalism has figured out how to channel that selfishness into prosperity for the whole society?

 

[WillieWonka]

lets do it.

OK. Where has it actually been employed to create prosperity? Not in theory, but in reality. Where has it proven itself?

 

[buffalo]

lets do it.

Basically it puts responsible in the hands of the parties closest to it. It fits well with conservative values and capitalism (not big business).

 

[MindOverMatter]

Perhaps you hold onto your stuff just like everyone else does? Keeping your own personal profit for yourself? Not sending it to those 3rd world folks?

And perhaps capitalism has figured out how to channel that selfishness into prosperity for the whole society?

Wasn’t it you that said, just a moment ago, that capitalism has nothing to do with moral achievements or moral evils. Which one is it?

 

[buffalo]

**1883 Socialization also presents dangers. Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative. The teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity, according to which “a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to co- ordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.”
**
1885 The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism. It sets limits for state intervention. It aims at harmonizing the relationships between individuals and societies. It tends toward the establishment of true international order.

1894 In accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, neither the state nor any larger society should substitute itself for the initiative and responsibility of individuals and intermediary bodies.

**2209 **The family must be helped and defended by appropriate social measures. Where families cannot fulfill their responsibilities, other social bodies have the duty of helping them and of supporting the institution of the family. Following the principle of subsidiarity, larger communities should take care not to usurp the family’s prerogatives or interfere in its life.

Are the US bishops missing something when they support big government?

 

[WillieWonka]

Wasn’t it you that said, just a moment ago, that capitalism has nothing to do with moral achievements or moral evils. Which one is it?

Yes. What’s the problem?

 

[buffalo]

2421 The social doctrine of the Church developed in the nineteenth century when the Gospel encountered modern industrial society with its new structures for the production of consumer goods, its new concept of society, the state and authority, and its new forms of labor and ownership. The development of the doctrine of the Church on economic and social matters attests the permanent value of the Church’s teaching at the same time as it attests the true meaning of her Tradition, always living and active.201
[2422](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2422.htm’) The Church’s social teaching comprises a body of doctrine, which is articulated as the Church interprets events in the course of history, with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, in the light of the whole of what has been revealed by Jesus Christ.202 This teaching can be more easily accepted by men of good will, the more the faithful let themselves be guided by it.
2423 The Church’s social teaching proposes principles for reflection; it provides criteria for judgment; it gives guidelines for action:
Any system in which social relationships are determined entirely by economic factors is contrary to the nature of the human person and his acts.203
[2424](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2424.htm’) A theory that makes profit the exclusive norm and ultimate end of economic activity is morally unacceptable. The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order.204 A system that “subordinates the basic rights of individuals and of groups to the collective organization of production” is contrary to human dignity.205 Every practice that reduces persons to nothing more than a means of profit enslaves man, leads to idolizing money, and contributes to the spread of atheism. "You cannot serve God and mammon."206

[2425](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2425.htm’) The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.207 Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."208 Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
IV. ECONOMIC ACTIVITY AND SOCIAL JUSTICE
[2426](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2426.htm’) The development of economic activity and growth in production are meant to provide for the needs of human beings. Economic life is not meant solely to multiply goods produced and increase profit or power; it is ordered first of all to the service of persons, of the whole man, and of the entire human community. Economic activity, conducted according to its own proper methods, is to be exercised within the limits of the moral order, in keeping with social justice so as to correspond to God’s plan for man.209

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Fish90,

I just joined the thread and have been playing catch up on the previous posts … so, if this has been previously asked… just forward me to the answer…

Capitalism fails to bring people out of poverty in the third world where there is no sufficient regulation. A lot of the time companies pay less than the poverty line with no respect for the worker. Sweatshops are one example.

“Captialism fails to bring people out of poverty…” and what do you base that on? Honest. What kind of economic system do you think existed at the time Christ spoke the words that, “…the poor you will always have with you…” (Matt 26:11) Another way to address the issue is what national economic model does not have at least some of its people living in poverty?

In some ways capitalism does allow for poverty - but, I think that when taken as a whole, capitalism does three things:

1.) allows for the possibility of creating wealth, it rewards those who risk their assets (capital) and succeed in presenting their idea of how to make things better (note: this is not the same as hard work, or working hard - capitalism works when people dream of what can be done better, go out and try to accomplish this and others recognize their accomplishment)

2.) serves as an incentive for others to try and create improvements in the society - because if the society sees their contribution as worthwhile - they will be rewarded. An old (and possibly dubious) contribution was the ‘Hula Hoop’ [here is a link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hula_hoop] where 100million plastic hoops were sold in 1958 - and I remember having one! Not to belabor the fact - that this toy probably did not do much in the long run (except may show how quickly a fad can be marketed!) it rewarded the developers, marketers, manufacturing employees, distribution and sales persons - and finally the consumer with a ‘good’.

1. creates the basis for government to justify taxation and various tax rates and through them to encourage (like with home ownership interest rate tax breaks) or discourage (like cigarette and liquor tax stamps) particular type of activities. Government then can use this money to provide food stamps, vouchers for low-income shelters and medical care through Medicaid or other such program).

I do not think that any economic system creates poverty - it is just that some systems are better at addressing it then others - but, no one has THE ANSWER to how to eliminate poverty. Or, if they do - they have kept it well hidden for a long time!

God bless

 

[o_mlly]

A Poverty that is the infliction of a corrupt system of greedy people is evil.

I’m not sure I get your point. If I dissect your sentence, I get: “Poverty … is … evil.” Is that your point?

If so, I do not agree. If poverty is an effect, it is morally neutral. Only causes which possess intellect and free will are capable of evil acts.

Peace,
O’Malley

 

[MindOverMatter]

I’m not sure I get your point. If I dissect your sentence, I get: “Poverty … is … evil.” Is that your point?

If so, I do not agree. If poverty is an effect, it is morally neutral. Only causes which possess intellect and free will are capable of evil acts.

Peace,
O’Malley

The word poverty, has no meaning out side of the economic social order created by the freewill of people. Accept in a religious sense, such as when somebody chooses to take the vow of poverty when joining a religious order or something to that effect. But thats different.

Trying to explain away poverty as if it doesn’t exist, as if it is not an evil inflicted on people as a result of greed, may deceive me whom is limited in knowledge and intellect, but it will not deceive God.

 

[Langdell]

I do not think that any economic system creates poverty - it is just that some systems are better at addressing it then others - but, no one has THE ANSWER to how to eliminate poverty. Or, if they do - they have kept it well hidden for a long time!

I totally agree with your points 1-3. Capitalism has proven to be the best system at creating wealth across the board, and wealthier societies are better for all classes in them and for the environment.

I have just one quibble – you said that you don’t think that any economic system creates poverty. I think communism created poverty in most of the places where it has been tried. It forced people to adopt less efficient means of making a living.

.