Are capitalistic and conservative ideals sinful?

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I was just curious if these capitalistic and conservative ideals are sinful. Please be respectful.
  1. Success is great
  2. Wealth is great
  3. Failure is great
    4 A small amount of greed is good (drives innovation and job creation), too much is bad.
Then, is a conservative immoral when they feel that welfare should be minimal and focused on the needs of the person? What I mean by minimal and focused on needs is that everybody should be guaranteed food just not expensive foods like beef and everybody doesn’t deserve to live in a house, but in a small trailer or apartment.

Is it sinful to be happy that everybody is guaranteed clean water, bread, a multivitamin and basic health care (what is required to live a full life).
 
  1. Success is great
Depends on the definition of “success”. Succeed at being Happy? Succeed at becoming independantly wealthy?
  1. Wealth is great
Depends on “great for whom?” and “at what expense?”
  1. Failure is great
??? How is this a conservative ideal:confused:

4 A small amount of greed is good (drives innovation and job creation), too much is bad.

Bzzzt. Greed is greed. Motivation drives innovation and job creation, greed is self-serving. There is no such thing as “a little” or “too much” greed, methinks.
 
Okay, like the previus poster, let me take these on one at a time.
I was just curious if these capitalistic and conservative ideals are sinful. Please be respectful.
  1. Success is great
Yes. When we succeed, we can learn from our temporal success. This is especially true when we succeeded using ethical practices and means. For example, I would for a very successful company. Yet the owners are Catholic; they guide their business and treat their employees in a manner consistent with Catholic morality and social teachings. The result is that the company is very well-respected by our customer and consumers and we have many long-term and faithful employees. (I have worked here for just over 14 years.)

Success achieved via hard work and dedication is to be admired because self-discipline and good work ethic are worthy virtues.
  1. Wealth is great
Being wealthy is not inherently bad. In fact, the Lord does bless some with wealth, but that blessing can cut both ways. Just as poverty and suffering can be a test and strengthen people, wealth can also be a test as it is east to fail to properly give alms, help the less fortunate and succumb to the sin of greed and avarice. When someone holds on to Catholic faith they can use their wealth to benefit the Church as well as many charities. Tom Monahan, the president of Dominos Pizza is an excellent example of this. He helped to build Ave Maria University.
  1. Failure is great
Aside from the obvious financial difficulties, failure can be a good. While we can lean from our successes, failure is often a better teacher. In addition, if an idea is genuinely not good, or a business model is not efficient enough to be profitable, then failure is a good thing as it helps eliminate the inefficient and the undesirable. These lower costs for consumers.
4 A small amount of greed is good (drives innovation and job creation), too much is bad.
I do not believe this is an authentically capitalist or conservative idea. Geed is always bad. However, do not confuse greed, even a small amount of greed, with the desire for a person to be financially successful. Aiming to be financially successful can be a noble and virtuous goal. It can mean that family is provided for, children can be educated, retirement can be comfortable, charities and the Church can be supported to a greater degree, etc. That is not being greedy, that is being sensible.
Then, is a conservative immoral when they feel that welfare should be minimal and focused on the needs of the person? What I mean by minimal and focused on needs is that everybody should be guaranteed food just not expensive foods like beef and everybody doesn’t deserve to live in a house, but in a small trailer or apartment.
Is it sinful to be happy that everybody is guaranteed clean water, bread, a multivitamin and basic health care (what is required to live a full life).
Part and parcel with capitalism is that people are rewarded for working, rewarded more for working harder or smarter, and penalized for not working hard. Many people are motivated to support their families via hard work because their hard work is rewarded. However, if everyone is rewarded, using money from the very wealthy, no matter how hard they work or how lazy they are, the motivation to be productive members of society will erode and, for many, disappear entirely.

So yes, I would say ignoring the very grave and negative social consequences that government guaranteed social programs, especially food water and “spreading the wealth” inherently bring, could arguably be sinful.

Now non of what I have said should be interpreted as me saying that capitalism is the most desirable economic model. Not at all. But any economic model that removes private property rights, the parents ability to oversee and manage the education of their children, removes health care decision from patients+doctors or rations care, forces public funds to pay for abortions, requires coverage for contraceptions or sterilization procedures, legalizes or even requires euthanasia, would inherently immoral and, therefore, evil. That would pretty much include most socialist and all communist economic models.
 
Thank you for your replies.

Regarding my last question. I was trying to get at being someone who promotes the very minimal welfare. I thought as Christians we want everyone to have the basic needs of life like food, water, shelter and medical care. Is it not this all we should guarantee in our welfare programs?

For instance, I will create some basic welfare program. Everyone gets drinking water, bread, a multivitamin (not all nutrients can come from bread alone) and minimal shelter like a communal house or small trailer or apartment. Would this be a moral program or do people deserve more?
 
I was just curious if these capitalistic and conservative ideals are sinful. Please be respectful.
  1. Success is great
  2. Wealth is great
  3. Failure is great
    4 A small amount of greed is good (drives innovation and job creation), too much is bad.
Then, is a conservative immoral when they feel that welfare should be minimal and focused on the needs of the person? What I mean by minimal and focused on needs is that everybody should be guaranteed food just not expensive foods like beef and everybody doesn’t deserve to live in a house, but in a small trailer or apartment.

Is it sinful to be happy that everybody is guaranteed clean water, bread, a multivitamin and basic health care (what is required to live a full life).
Absolutely not—and you got number four wrong, as do all those who suffer from what we have come to know as a ‘public education.’

Statists have for decades been demonizing capitalist ideals, linking capitalism and greed. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It is the Gaia-worshipping crowd who has it utterly wrong.

Capitalism began with Christianity. It has spread because of the economic systems, capitalism alone confers dignity to the individual and does NOT render unto Caesar that which is God’s.

Please read Dinesh D’Souza’s excellent work, What’s So Great About Christianity.
 
I was just curious if these capitalistic and conservative ideals are sinful. Please be respectful.
  1. Success is great
  2. Wealth is great
  3. Failure is great
    4 A small amount of greed is good (drives innovation and job creation), too much is bad.
Then, is a conservative immoral when they feel that welfare should be minimal and focused on the needs of the person? What I mean by minimal and focused on needs is that everybody should be guaranteed food just not expensive foods like beef and everybody doesn’t deserve to live in a house, but in a small trailer or apartment.

Is it sinful to be happy that everybody is guaranteed clean water, bread, a multivitamin and basic health care (what is required to live a full life).
I don’t think much of this has any real correlation with the basic message of Christianity. Not that it so much against it, but it seems to me to have little to do with it at all. Success, wealth, failure - at what?? Monetarily? In family life, in piety, in fame and power? Success at happiness?

I also am not sure that I would really identify those statements with the essence of capitalism - I guess maybe conservatism, but I am not sure about that either.

I’ll assume you were speaking materially since you are particularly interested in Capitalism. Too much success and wealth can be very bad for people - it tends obscure more important values, it makes them think they don’t need God. On the other hand, constant failure and poverty also make and real happiness or relationship with God difficult.

I don’t think I could agree that greed is good under any circumstances. To want what one needs to live is not greed, of course. But greed is one of the seven deadly sins for good reason - it tends to poison even worthwhile endeavors.

Christianity is pretty clear - we should do everything for the glory of God. If we succeed or have talent, we should be happy just as we would be if someone else succeed or had talent. We should not worry about material things, even to do so too much on a day to day level can be dangerous. We should treat others as we would want to be treated, and give them our shirt and shoes if they ask for it. Success is related to the extent which we are able to respond to God’s grace.

How to put these into practice in everyday life is sometimes difficult, especially with regard to something like designing a welfare system, which has limited resources. But I’m not sure, when we look at our own individual actions, which are the ones we are ultimately responsible for, that they are really compatible with the values you have listed.

I suspect if we had a perfect, but worldly, Christian political and economic system, it would have features of many different models, and seem a rather strange mix to outsiders.
 
I’m sick of conservatism and capitalism being tarred with the same, dreary old marxist brush. And apparently they have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams of Godlessness.

BOTH capitalism and conservatism are not only offshoots of Christianity but the best ways of expressing the freedom to glorify God.

It’s a sad commentary on our so-called public education when people aren’t taught basic history and basic economics. But that’s all to the benefit of the statists, who like to keep their voters ignorant of history, especially the history of Christianity.

The ideas of equality, individual rights, and capitalism all stem from Christianity.

Did you think us conservative capitalists meet in secret enclaves figuring out the best ways to poison the air and water? :rolleyes:

The freedoms you enjoy to continue to pass on a false view of both philosopies was won for you by the blood of your ancestors. They knew some things were worth fighting for.
 
Thank you for your replies.

Regarding my last question. I was trying to get at being someone who promotes the very minimal welfare. I thought as Christians we want everyone to have the basic needs of life like food, water, shelter and medical care. Is it not this all we should guarantee in our welfare programs?

For instance, I will create some basic welfare program. Everyone gets drinking water, bread, a multivitamin (not all nutrients can come from bread alone) and minimal shelter like a communal house or small trailer or apartment. Would this be a moral program or do people deserve more?
A very open question…what basic human needs do people deserve?

A society run on purely Christian values would, in my opinion, look very much like what Socialism is meant to be (in theory). Everyone participates in giving what they can give and helping those who are in need; the poor, widows, children.

Socialism as we know it is full of corruption and abuse of power. The practical application of “from each according to his ability and to each according to his need” falls flat because it is administered with our flawed human nature. If we were to be able to run society based on Christian principals from the ground up, it would work fine.
 
It’s Christian to give what you own freely to the poor- it’s unchristian to force others to give to do the same when they don’t wish to.
 
A very open question…what basic human needs do people deserve?

A society run on purely Christian values would, in my opinion, look very much like what Socialism is meant to be (in theory). Everyone participates in giving what they can give and helping those who are in need; the poor, widows, children.

Socialism as we know it is full of corruption and abuse of power. The practical application of “from each according to his ability and to each according to his need” falls flat because it is administered with our flawed human nature. If we were to be able to run society based on Christian principals from the ground up, it would work fine.
Absolutely false. I can’t tolerate it when socialism is compared to Christianity. By its very nature it is evil, and corrupt simply because it renders unto Caesar what is God’s.

It has nothing whatever to do with Christian ideals or ‘helping the poor.’

And the church in its Catechism speaks against it.

The closest we have ever come to basing a society on Christian principles from the ground up is the CAPITALIST United States of America, which is now virtually lost.
 
I was just curious if these capitalistic and conservative ideals are sinful. Please be respectful.
  1. Success is great
Caring deeply about worldly success is at least venially sinful, yes. And glorifying worldly ambition is deeply sinful and contrary to the Gospel. Nor, in my opinion, is it genuinely “conservative.” True conservatism calls people to be content with their station in life (if they have the things necessary for life, health, and dignity), and to strive for virtue rather than for wealth or power. What passes for “conservatism” in American popular media today is a parody of traditional conservatism (and what other kind is there, really? How can you reverse traditional values and call the result “conservatism”?). But of course whether these ideas are “conservative” is much less important than whether they are Christian!
  1. Wealth is great
It’s a gift of God. But the *love *of wealth is the root of all evil, according to Scripture.
  1. Failure is great
I’n not sure what that means. Failure is not great. Who says this? Failure can sometimes drive us to God, but it’s not good in and of itself.
4 A small amount of greed is good (drives innovation and job creation), too much is bad.
If people really say this, they are muddled. The desire to create and produce plenty is not greed. Greed is essentially incompatible with desire for the good of the neighbor. (The problem with much capitalist thought is that it posits an “invisible hand” whereby the pursuit of personal gain, even at the expense of the neighbor, actually benefits everyone. Since Christian ethics is focused on intention, the pursuit of gain in competition with others is still immoral even if, in the grand scheme of things, everyone benefits. But if what you consciously intend is the common good, then your drive to create and produce is virtuous as long as it does not get in the way of other things like prayer or spending time with your family.)
Then, is a conservative immoral when they feel that welfare should be minimal and focused on the needs of the person? What I mean by minimal and focused on needs is that everybody should be guaranteed food just not expensive foods like beef and everybody doesn’t deserve to live in a house, but in a small trailer or apartment.
I don’t think that “deserving” is really the point. But I would agree that welfare should guarantee minimal human needs and not luxuries. And I agree that beef is a luxury, although in our culture that seems to be labeled a “liberal” opinion :D. I have heard many “conservatives” claim that government welfare should be abolished outright. The position you describe seems moderate and reasonable. Have you heard people call it sinful? On what grounds? Unless you are talking about some of the statements I’ve heard from “conservatives” which seem downright punitive toward the poor (the horrific example of this in practice was the “workhouse” system of the 19th century–these days all anyone remembers are the Catholic “Magdalene laundries,” but this attitude to the poor wasn’t peculiar to Catholics by any means–in fact I’d say that the Catholic Church was far more compassionate than many other institutions in European society at that time). Some folks seem determined to ensure that if we do help the poor, we by golly will keep them miserable so they’ll have an incentive to work hard and get rich like us. I think that is a sinful approach.
Is it sinful to be happy that everybody is guaranteed clean water, bread, a multivitamin and basic health care (what is required to live a full life).
Well no. Who says it is?

Edwin
 
Absolutely false. I can’t tolerate it when socialism is compared to Christianity. By its very nature it is evil, and corrupt simply because it renders unto Caesar what is God’s.
“Socialism” can mean so many things that this isn’t really helpful. I agree that if the government is given total control of the means of production, the result is inevitably idolatrous and evil. However, I find it odd when “conservatives” complain bitterly about the government engaging in welfare programs for the poor but have no complaints about a large military, which is far more conducive to idolatry.

Edwin
 
It’s Christian to give what you own freely to the poor- it’s unchristian to force others to give to do the same when they don’t wish to.
Why? Do you also think that it’s un-Christian to force people to support the military?

Why is it un-Christian for the government to take our money to help the poor, but not un-Christian for the government to take our money to build big bombs?

Edwin
 
Why? Do you also think that it’s un-Christian to force people to support the military?

Why is it un-Christian for the government to take our money to help the poor, but not un-Christian for the government to take our money to build big bombs?

Edwin
Remember when Jesus asked the rich man to give his money to the poor? When the rich man declined, did he have the apostles tackle him and take his money? Or did he allow him to go on his way?
 
Absolutely false. I can’t tolerate it when socialism is compared to Christianity. By its very nature it is evil, and corrupt simply because it renders unto Caesar what is God’s.

It has nothing whatever to do with Christian ideals or ‘helping the poor.’

And the church in its Catechism speaks against it.

The closest we have ever come to basing a society on Christian principles from the ground up is the CAPITALIST United States of America, which is now virtually lost.
Could you explain this position more clearly?

How is capitalism founded on Christian principles?

How is socialism’s “goal” of helping the needy immoral?

I have not ever saw capitalism to be filled with christian principles. I mean there is a lot of hurt during the process of capitalism with layoffs and bankruptcy. I would think that our current form (before these reforms set in) to be very good for the people. People can make money and there is a safety net that gives people the bear minimal if they get into trouble

Please be respectful for I live in a society where having children is greedy and immoral:thumbsup:.

I am also in need of arguments against “pure communism” (which has never existed they say:confused:). I believe I can win this argument based off christian ideals
 
There are certain socially conservative ideals that are in fact, good. Being pro-life, anti-euthanasia, supporting traditional marriage, etc. What you’re talking about are fiscally conservative ideals and I can’t really answer that.

However, are you sure about this statement?
Being wealthy is not inherently bad
I understand it’s not easy to get to Heaven if you’re rich.

Matthew 19:23-24
23And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
 
For instance, I will create some basic welfare program. Everyone gets drinking water, bread, a multivitamin (not all nutrients can come from bread alone) and minimal shelter like a communal house or small trailer or apartment. Would this be a moral program or do people deserve more?
I do not think that Catholic Social Teaching supports capitalism or socialism. Joseph Pearce wrote a great book titled, small is still beautiful {economics as is families mattered}, which is a updated version of E.F. Schumacher’s book, Small Is Beautiful. Both men are Catholic. Pearce describes a model of economics, which some call distributism, calling for a wide distribution of the means of production–small businesses, local economies, and a recognition of when one has enough. In such a model, welfare or charity (a much better name) would probably be handled locally as well. Neighbors would help neighbors, and friends would help friends.

However, the question of charity is a personal one for me. My husband and I have nine children, two with special needs. My husband’s income can not support us, so we rely on government assistance. With a welfare program as basic as the one above, we would not qualify for assistance. But as I am raising the next generation of workers, I believe it is in the best interest of our country to support us. That being said, I think that the Catholic Church must be active in providing support to us as well. Supporting large families, the poor, and those who are disabled is part of the Church’s pro-life mission.
 
I had one more thought. It is important to remember that people have a God-given dignity. We need to ask ourselves “What are people worth?” instead of “What do people deserve?”
 
Absolutely false. I can’t tolerate it when socialism is compared to Christianity. By its very nature it is evil, and corrupt simply because it renders unto Caesar what is God’s.

It has nothing whatever to do with Christian ideals or ‘helping the poor.’

And the church in its Catechism speaks against it.

The closest we have ever come to basing a society on Christian principles from the ground up is the CAPITALIST United States of America, which is now virtually lost.
As someone who lives in a socialist country, I can’t say that it appears to be innately evil. In fact, like most of the people in other socialist countries, people here are overall fairly happy. I would say they are certainly better off, on average, than American citizens - some of whom do well, but others struggle so terribly. I’m continually shocked by the kind of health care issues my American friends and relatives cope with.

Socialist governments and societies, like any other, have people who are evil, or selfish, or misguided, and are prone to certain kinds of institutional problems, just like other nations are prone to other difficulties.

I can in no way imagine on what basis you thing the USA is the closest thing to a Christian nation that has ever existed. However, to argue that that shows that capitalism is the best model, you would also have to show that it is the closest that ever will exist; rather a tall order I should think.

The question I ask myself is - if each individual lived fully as a Christian should, living out Christian principles, what would it look like? Not a lot like capitalism, I think, nor perhaps much like any system that we have now. I suspect it would be much more localized on many levels, that there would be a lot less material stuff in our lives, and more activity, and people would take care of their neighbors, whatever that required. So I suspect it would have features of socialism, of real (not neo) conservatism (what are called Red Tories around here), of some of the craft movements the craft movements that advocate a return to small scale production, and maybe even a little hippy-back-to-the-land thrown in. And Latin masses with lots of Palestrina.😉
 
First of all, I think the church has condemmed socialism as well as at least “free-for-all” capitalism. I’m not sure the U.S. is either of those.
real (not neo) conservatism
Why not?
 
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