Are capitalistic and conservative ideals sinful?

[WillieWonka]

Hi, Buffalo,

OK, you are free to disagree… according to you, these grads are not disciplined and dishonest. So, why should an employer hire a college grad knowing that they must be trained anyway?

Seriously, no matter what economic system you live under, you still need to have an educated workforce.

God bless

An employer works on probabilities. When hiring someone he looks for the person he judges has the highest probability of succeeding in the job. It is far from perfect, but that’s how it works.

So, he looks for indications from a person’s history that he will succeed. Past accomplishment is certainly the most important factor. Finishing school is such an accomplishment.

After a few years, a person builds up more experience and more accomplshment, and school becomes a less important factor.

 

[buffalo]

An employer works on probabilities. When hiring someone he looks for the person he judges has the highest probability of succeeding in the job. It is far from perfect, but that’s how it works.

So, he looks for indications from a person’s history that he will succeed. Past accomplishment is certainly the most important factor. Finishing school is such an accomplishment.

After a few years, a person builds up more experience and more accomplshment, and school becomes a less important factor.

Agreed.

My point is that the schools should do a better job preparing students for the workplace. Businesses are the end customer.

 

[buffalo]

Hi, Buffalo,

OK, you are free to disagree… according to you, these grads are not disciplined and dishonest. So, why should an employer hire a college grad knowing that they must be trained anyway?

Seriously, no matter what economic system you live under, you still need to have an educated workforce.

God bless

Sure an educated workforce is important. The question is where does the education come from, is it relevant, and does the employer need it?

5 years after graduation 70% or so of graduates are not working in their field. Many have taken jobs at lower pay and still have loans to pay off.

College attendance is 60% female and men are finding it irrelevant and not worth it. This is a indictment of our education system. This will have family ramifications too.

I think men need more skills training and I agree with williewonka that an undergrad technical undergrad degree is the way to go.

 

[fish90]

Of course I can ague with it. The guy didn’t say anything. People all over the world are seriously trying to figure out what happened and how it can be fixed, and this guy makes absolutely no contribution to the discussion.

The point I was trying to point out is that the current economic crisis had immorality at part of its root. People borrowing beyond their means and banks who give out crazy loans helped to lead to the credit crunch. A lot of the problems now would not be here if people lived within their means.

I hope you get what I mean.

God Bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Buffalo,

What are your references for these statements?

Sure an educated workforce is important. The question is where does the education come from, is it relevant, and does the employer need it?

5 years after graduation 70% or so of graduates are not working in their field. Many have taken jobs at lower pay and still have loans to pay off.

College attendance is 60% female and men are finding it irrelevant and not worth it. This is a indictment of our education system. This will have family ramifications too.

I think men need more skills training and I agree with williewonka that an undergrad technical undergrad degree is the way to go.

God bless

 

[buffalo]

Hi, Buffalo,

What are your references for these statements?

God bless

Business journals and the news.

google it. There is plenty out there on it.

 

[WillieWonka]

Agreed.

My point is that the schools should do a better job preparing students for the workplace. Businesses are the end customer.

The students are the customer. They are paying the bill. Business has learned to put people in productive positions where they learn what they need to know. They don’t just stick them in a classroom.

It is students that choose to major in Sociology, English, and Anthropology. That doesn’t do business much good. But they could have majored in engineering, computer science, business, or science. That does do business some good.

Schools offer the curriculum. It is the student’s decision to take advantage of it.

 

[WillieWonka]

The point I was trying to point out is that the current economic crisis had immorality at part of its root. People borrowing beyond their means and banks who give out crazy loans helped to lead to the credit crunch. A lot of the problems now would not be here if people lived within their means.

I hope you get what I mean.

God Bless

Well, the guy you linked to simply made an assertion. I don’t know what he means. I doubt he does.

We could just as easily say the current situation was caused by ignorant people trying to implement Church teachings by providing affordable housing.

There are many necessary conditions to the current problems, but there is no single necessary and sufficient condition. Taken together, they are necessary and sufficient. That makes it easy for anyone to make any claim they want. They just pick a necessary condition and blather about how it caused all the problems.

Anyone can shake their head and bemoan immorality. Equally ignorant people then shake their heads and agree. Well, what contribution have they really made?

 

[tqualey]

Buffalo,

I am concerned - while I am aware of ‘business journals and the news…’ I am not aware of the statistics you came up with. Now, you wouldn’t want me to think your imagination influenced your memory on this matter… would you…

Business journals and the news.

If you were to google your references as you recall them … we can all see what they are … or… if they are…

Thank you.

God bless

google it. There is plenty out there on it.

 

[fultonfish]

The worker is entitled to his wages … to the fruits of his labor.

As soon as the worker starts to save up some of his wages, he starts to consider what to do with his surplus … put them in the bank, buy stocks, buy a house, ??? he becomes a capitalist and searches out capitalist ideals.

 

[fish90]

Well, the guy you linked to simply made an assertion. I don’t know what he means. I doubt he does.

We could just as easily say the current situation was caused by ignorant people trying to implement Church teachings by providing affordable housing.

There are many necessary conditions to the current problems, but there is no single necessary and sufficient condition. Taken together, they are necessary and sufficient. That makes it easy for anyone to make any claim they want. They just pick a necessary condition and blather about how it caused all the problems.

Anyone can shake their head and bemoan immorality. Equally ignorant people then shake their heads and agree. Well, what contribution have they really made?

I do not think any Church teaching allows people to justify living in a house they cannot afford. Maybe with the incredible amount of wealth, the Church may find that a trailer or apartment is sufficient, but not a home. I could be wrong

Some quotes I can think of from the CCC.

2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.207 Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."208 Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a7.htm

2442 It is not the role of the Pastors of the Church to intervene directly in the political structuring and organization of social life. This task is part of the vocation of the lay faithful, acting on their own initiative with their fellow citizens. Social action can assume various concrete forms. It should always have the common good in view and be in conformity with the message of the Gospel and the teaching of the Church. It is the role of the laity "to animate temporal realities with Christian commitment, by which they show that they are witnesses and agents of peace and justice."231

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a7.htm

2427 Human work proceeds directly from persons created in the image of God and called to prolong the work of creation by subduing the earth, both with and for one another.[209] Hence work is a duty: “If any one will not work, let him not eat.”[210] Work honors the Creator’s gifts and the talents received from him. It can also be redemptive. By enduring the hardship of work[211] in union with Jesus, the carpenter of Nazareth and the one crucified on Calvary, man collaborates in a certain fashion with the Son of God in his redemptive work. He shows himself to be a disciple of Christ by carrying the cross, daily, in the work he is called to accomplish.[212] Work can be a means of sanctification and a way of animating earthly realities with the Spirit of Christ.

christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/seventh.html

People are called to live with what they can and the faithful are to help those that are less fortunate not provide every luxury. Please correct me if I am wrong.

God Bless

 

[WillieWonka]

I do not think any Church teaching allows people to justify living in a house they cannot afford. Maybe with the incredible amount of wealth, the Church may find that a trailer or apartment is sufficient, but not a home. I could be wrong

Some quotes I can think of from the CCC.

2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.207 Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."208 Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a7.htm

2442 It is not the role of the Pastors of the Church to intervene directly in the political structuring and organization of social life. This task is part of the vocation of the lay faithful, acting on their own initiative with their fellow citizens. Social action can assume various concrete forms. It should always have the common good in view and be in conformity with the message of the Gospel and the teaching of the Church. It is the role of the laity "to animate temporal realities with Christian commitment, by which they show that they are witnesses and agents of peace and justice."231

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a7.htm

2427 Human work proceeds directly from persons created in the image of God and called to prolong the work of creation by subduing the earth, both with and for one another.[209] Hence work is a duty: “If any one will not work, let him not eat.”[210] Work honors the Creator’s gifts and the talents received from him. It can also be redemptive. By enduring the hardship of work[211] in union with Jesus, the carpenter of Nazareth and the one crucified on Calvary, man collaborates in a certain fashion with the Son of God in his redemptive work. He shows himself to be a disciple of Christ by carrying the cross, daily, in the work he is called to accomplish.[212] Work can be a means of sanctification and a way of animating earthly realities with the Spirit of Christ.

christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/seventh.html

People are called to live with what they can and the faithful are to help those that are less fortunate not provide every luxury. Please correct me if I am wrong.

God Bless

Church teachinhgs sit on shelves. It is the people who claim to be adherents of such teachings that cause problems. When they are ignorant of business and economics, yet insist their moral vision is sufficient, they can do great damage.

The stuff you cited says it is the role of the Pastors of the Church to intervene in society. Notice it says absolutely nothing about the responsiblity of those pastors to be educated and informed about the targets of their intervention? Notice it says nothing about the incredible harm such intervention can bring when those pastors are ignorant, poorly informed, and poorly educated in the matters they target?

An “agent of peace and justice” who is an economic ignoramus has no business messing with economies.

If you want to tell business and economies how to operate, first go learn something about both. In fact learn a lot. You won’t learn it from Church teachings.

 

[buffalo]

Buffalo,

I am concerned - while I am aware of ‘business journals and the news…’ I am not aware of the statistics you came up with. Now, you wouldn’t want me to think your imagination influenced your memory on this matter… would you…

Buffaloes have great memories.

and now you have provoked me into stampeding you with facts…

Where The Boys Aren’t
The gender gap on college campuses

 

[fish90]

Do not worry. I will now stop offering any piece of Church teaching to you since you do not have an ear for it.

The Church has the job of forming consciences. Teaching sits on shelves by those who refuse to carry out their Christian vocation. This teaching when followed does great for the world.

Re-read CCC 2442. I hope you find out that the paragraph says it is not the role.

I brought up CCC 2427 because it says “work is a duty.” I thought that would catch your ear. This was obviously a bad move on my part.

Your understanding of economics and business seems to be great. Your response did not even mention my statement that it is not Church teaching to have luxuries given to the less fortunate. That statement is still open to debate should I be wrong.

I seem to find that you have a beef with morality. I say morality because that is what moralists follow. Am I correct? If so, would you rather live in a world without Judeo-Christian ethics? To me that last question keeps a good reason to believe in Christianity. That is my personal opinion. You are free to disagree about anything I posted.

God Bless

 

[WillieWonka]

Do not worry. I will now stop offering any piece of Church teaching to you since you do not have an ear for it.

The Church has the job of forming consciences. Teaching sits on shelves by those who refuse to carry out their Christian vocation. This teaching when followed does great for the world.

Re-read CCC 2442. I hope you find out that the paragraph says it is not the role.

I brought up CCC 2427 because it says “work is a duty.” I thought that would catch your ear. This was obviously a bad move on my part.

Your understanding of economics and business seems to be great. Your response did not even mention my statement that it is not Church teaching to have luxuries given to the less fortunate. That statement is still open to debate should I be wrong.

I seem to find that you have a beef with morality. I say morality because that is what moralists follow. Am I correct? If so, would you rather live in a world without Judeo-Christian ethics? To me that last question keeps a good reason to believe in Christianity. That is my personal opinion. You are free to disagree about anything I posted.

God Bless

I have an ear for anything of value. I don’t find Church teachings on economics to be of value.

Followers of Church tecahings can do great good and they can do great harm. They can do good when the advocates understand the targets of their advocacy. They do harm when those advocates are ignornant of the targets of their advocacy.

I disagree that work is a duty. It is a choice. However, I reject a duty to care for those who choose not to work.

The Church does not teach giving luxuries to the less fortunate? OK. So what?

I have no beef with morality. I have a beef with ignoramt moralists who think their morality is sufficient to direct the management of complex operations. They know nothing about business or economics, so they have no idea how to effectively and efficiently apply their morality. They are worthless. They are irresponsible and incompetent moralists.

A world without Judeo-Christian ethics? Fine with me. Jews and Christians figured out those ethics, but so did the rest of the world that never heard of Jews or Christians. And they did it before Christianity even existed. The world figured out those ethics without any help from Jews or Christians. China? Japan? India? Europe before Christianity? Taoism? Buddhism? Upanishads? You think those ideas are somehow unique to Christianity?

 

[fish90]

I have an ear for anything of value. I don’t find Church teachings on economics to be of value.

Followers of Church tecahings can do great good and they can do great harm. They can do good when the advocates understand the targets of their advocacy. They do harm when those advocates are ignornant of the targets of their advocacy.

I disagree that work is a duty. It is a choice. However, I reject a duty to care for those who choose not to work.

The Church does not teach giving luxuries to the less fortunate? OK. So what?

I have no beef with morality. I have a beef with ignoramt moralists who think their morality is sufficient to direct the management of complex operations. They know nothing about business or economics, so they have no idea how to effectively and efficiently apply their morality. They are worthless. They are irresponsible and incompetent moralists.

A world without Judeo-Christian ethics? Fine with me. Jews and Christians figured out those ethics, but so did the rest of the world that never heard of Jews or Christians. And they did it before Christianity even existed. The world figured out those ethics without any help from Jews or Christians. China? Japan? India? Europe before Christianity? Taoism? Buddhism? Upanishads? You think those ideas are somehow unique to Christianity?

Respectfully, the Church does not dictate what the business person should do, but it forms the conscience of the business person act correctly in business matters.
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art7.shtml

Please read:
2420
The Church makes a moral judgment about economic and social matters, "when the fundamental rights of the person or the salvation of souls requires it."200 In the moral order she bears a mission distinct from that of political authorities: the Church is concerned with the temporal aspects of the common good because they are ordered to the sovereign Good, our ultimate end. She strives to inspire right attitudes with respect to earthly goods and in socio-economic relationships.

Hopefully, this paragraph will show the role of the Church.

Life is not about business or economics, but something greater. Failing to find this leads to unhappiness. Anybody who is not treated with the respect and dignity everyone deserves will find unhappiness.

I hope I make any sense to you.

God Bless

 

[WillieWonka]

Respectfully, the Church does not dictate what the business person should do, but it forms the conscience of the business person act correctly in business matters.
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art7.shtml

Please read:
2420
The Church makes a moral judgment about economic and social matters, "when the fundamental rights of the person or the salvation of souls requires it."200 In the moral order she bears a mission distinct from that of political authorities: the Church is concerned with the temporal aspects of the common good because they are ordered to the sovereign Good, our ultimate end. She strives to inspire right attitudes with respect to earthly goods and in socio-economic relationships.

Hopefully, this paragraph will show the role of the Church.

Life is not about business or economics, but something greater. Failing to find this leads to unhappiness. Anybody who is not treated with the respect and dignity everyone deserves will find unhappiness.

I hope I make any sense to you.

God Bless

I find it somewhat meaningless to talk about what the Church does. People do things. So, I agree the Church doesn’t dictate what a businesman should do. Officials and followers of the Church do.

That paragraph tells me nothing. I don’t care what the Church teaching says. I am concerned with the damage its followers do trying to implement it in ignorance.

Life is about all kinds of things. Choose whatever you want, but speak for yourself.

You do not make sense to me. I suspect you are ignorant of both business and economics. That’s fine. We are all ignorant about many things, but I have the wisdom not to try to change those things while I remain ignorant.

 

[Tsuwano]

Where has capitalism existed without enforceable property rights and enforceable contracting rights?

This is an endrun around my point. Enforceable property and contracting rights do indeed exist within capitalism, but the definition of what (or who) constitutes property and who has more power to enforce a particular view of rights can lead to unethical capitalism.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I constantly see people arguing AGAINST Capitalist and conservative values without even knowing what they are.

To paraphrase Bishop Sheen, there are not one hundred people who hate these ideals, but hate what they THINK they are.

 

[Langdell]

I find it somewhat meaningless to talk about what the Church does. People do things. So, I agree the Church doesn’t dictate what a businesman should do. Officials and followers of the Church do.

That paragraph tells me nothing. I don’t care what the Church teaching says. I am concerned with the damage its followers do trying to implement it in ignorance. …

Of course, there are plenty of people who have no truck with organized religion who also do damage by trying to implement their ethics without any understanding of economics. If I had to choose between educating the clergy about economics and educating the folks at NPR about economics, I’d pick the latter, on the grounds that it would probably avert more harm.
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