Are Catholic and Orthodox views of hell compatible?

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As I understand it, many Orthodox sources talk about hell as being the experience of God’s love as a fire. From an Orthodox perspective, heaven, hell and purgatory are the same ‘place’, the inescapable presence of God, which burns like a fire for those who are not disposed to receive it, but is the light of life for those who have been purified to experience it in joy.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, however, explicitly states that hell is a place away from God, it is His absence. If we choose to turn away from God in this life, He will allow us the freedom to be apart from Him in eternity. In a way, this is also His mercy, as we could not endure His presence if we were in sin.

Have I understood this correctly?

Are these two views compatible? I could see how you could say that hell is both the presence of God, knowing He exists, and His absence, knowing you can never receive His goodness - that seems to be the case with the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
 
Dear brother DL82
DL82 said:
As I understand it, many Orthodox sources talk about hell as being the experience of God’s love as a fire. From an Orthodox perspective, heaven, hell and purgatory are the same ‘place’, the inescapable presence of God, which burns like a fire for those who are not disposed to receive it, but is the light of life for those who have been purified to experience it in joy.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, however, explicitly states that hell is a place away from God, it is His absence. If we choose to turn away from God in this life, He will allow us the freedom to be apart from Him in eternity. In a way, this is also His mercy, as we could not endure His presence if we were in sin.

Have I understood this correctly?

Are these two views compatible? I could see how you could say that hell is both the presence of God, knowing He exists, and His absence, knowing you can never receive His goodness - that seems to be the case with the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
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Permit me to give you the Coptic Orthodox perspective. The COC understands Hell the same way that the Western Church does. The difference is that the COC does not believe the state of Hell - or separation from God (though it is not merely separation, but will involve actual punishment) - will not be a reality until the Endtime. This is because, unlike the Byzantine and Latin Churches, the COC does not believe in the concept of particular judgment. What the COC believes about the afterlife of the reprobate BEFORE the Final Judgment is much akin to the Catholic DOGMA of Purgatory, minus the particularly Latin flavor to the dogma (i.e., notions of a real fire, punishment, temporal calculation of time, etc.).

Blessings,
Marduk
 
While the doctrine of Hell as given in THE RIVER OF FIRE makes sense to me, this speech is NOT the last word in Orthodox eschatology.

It’s a theologoumenon–one that I support–but it’s no more than that.

As St. John Chrysostom said, let’s not seek to learn the nature of hell, or where it lies hidden, but how to avoid it.
 
DL82 said:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, however, explicitly states that hell is a place away from God, it is His absence. If we choose to turn away from God in this life, He will allow us the freedom to be apart from Him in eternity. In a way, this is also His mercy, as we could not endure His presence if we were in sin.
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Perhaps the idea of “being away from God” has different meanings. One the one hand, someone who sins, is “away from God”. On the other hand, even the sinner, though away from God in one sense, is still in the presence of God, by the mere fact of the sinner’s existence.

I think Aquinas mentioned something about God’s omnipresence as allowing/permitting the existence of all things, even hell and the demons.
 
mardukm said:
Dear brother DL82

Permit me to give you the Coptic Orthodox perspective. The COC understands Hell the same way that the Western Church does. The difference is that the COC does not believe the state of Hell - or separation from God (though it is not merely separation, but will involve actual punishment) - will not be a reality until the Endtime. This is because, unlike the Byzantine and Latin Churches, the COC does not believe in the concept of particular judgment. What the COC believes about the afterlife of the reprobate BEFORE the Final Judgment is much akin to the Catholic DOGMA of Purgatory, minus the particularly Latin flavor to the dogma (i.e., notions of a real fire, punishment, temporal calculation of time, etc.).

Blessings,
Marduk
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Interesting. Where do holy souls go after death, according to the COC?
 
JuanCarlos said:
Interesting. Where do holy souls go after death, according to the COC?
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They go to Hades, the “abode of the dead.” Copts do not understand Hades as eternal Hell, but is a temporary abode that will no longer exist at the Second Coming/Final Judgment. I hope my Eastern brothers and sisters correct me if I am wrong, but I think the Greeks also make this distinction between “Hades” and “Hell.”

Blessings,
Marduk
 
mardukm said:
They go to Hades, the “abode of the dead.” Copts do not understand Hades as eternal Hell, but is a temporary abode that will no longer exist at the Second Coming/Final Judgment.
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So the Coptic Orthodox believe that holy souls go to Hades immediately after death, then to Heaven at the Final Judgment? And unholy souls go straight to eternal damnation?
 
Dear brother SedesDomi,
SedesDomi said:
So the Coptic Orthodox believe that holy souls go to Hades immediately after death, then to Heaven at the Final Judgment? And unholy souls go straight to eternal damnation?
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Copts do not speak in terms of “places,” but, for a lack of a better word, in terms of “state.” We do not say that the holy souls are NOT in “Heaven.” We say they are in a state that is different from the reprobate. Both the reprobate and the Blessed before the Final Judgment experience a foretaste of what they will experience after the Final Judgment. It is only a foretaste because they will not experience its fullness until our bodies are reunited with our souls at the Final Judgment. Thus, do we (as well as Byzantines) pray even for the souls of the Blessed, as well as the reprobate.

In effect, Copts believe all are in the presence of God at this point before the Final Judgment. The reprobate are experiencing punishment, while the Blessed are experiencing bliss.

Here is a synopsis:

Copts do not believe in particular judgment. Byzantines and Latins do.

All believe that Hell is eternal separation from God.

All believe that at this point in time there are reprobate that experience punishment.

All believe that at this point in time there are blessed souls after death that are experiencing further purification/sanctification/divinization/theosis.

Copts do not believe anyone is eternally separated from God at this point in time.
Byzantines believe (correct me if I am wrong) that it is a possibility.
Latins believe there is a state of eternal separation at this point in time, but do not pretend to know who is in that state (thus, the general prayers for the dead at the Latin Mass).

Hope that helps.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
mardukm said:
They go to Hades, the “abode of the dead.” Copts do not understand Hades as eternal Hell, but is a temporary abode that will no longer exist at the Second Coming/Final Judgment. I hope my Eastern brothers and sisters correct me if I am wrong, but I think the Greeks also make this distinction between “Hades” and “Hell.”

Blessings,
Marduk
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As I understand it, and I could be wrong, but the old teaching of Limbo was Sheol or the “abode of the dead”… Is there anyone who has anything to add to this?
 
Isn’t that still similar to the Latin or Byzantine belief that we will not receive our glorified bodies until the Second Coming or Final Judgment? I’m not sure what that means for the interm period or what kind of state we will be in without a glorified body though.

But, the real differene you mention appears to be that Hell is not a permanent place after death. This is what would not be compatible.

Do Coptics still pray to saints for intercession? Do they believe that one can still sin in the next life before the final judgment? Does one not have the beatified vision of God before the second coming?
 
If we profess that God is everywhere, then we can’t say God isn’t in Hell. But God can’t be in Hell, can he? However if Hell is not a place but a state it makes sense. Those who love God and strive after him in this life will experience his love as eternal joy in the next life, those who turn from him will experience his love as torment because they cannot return that love having turned in on themselves and will be “seperated” from him by that inability. Just different approaches.

Fr. Deacon Lance
 
Deacon_Lance said:
If we profess that God is everywhere, then we can’t say God isn’t in Hell. But God can’t be in Hell, can he? However if Hell is not a place but a state it makes sense. Those who love God and strive after him in this life will experience his love as eternal joy in the next life, those who turn from him will experience his love as torment because they cannot return that love having turned in on themselves and will be “seperated” from him by that inability. Just different approaches.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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Very nicely said. Thank you for sharing that thought. 👍
 
wjp984 said:
Isn’t that still similar to the Latin or Byzantine belief that we will not receive our glorified bodies until the Second Coming or Final Judgment? I’m not sure what that means for the interm period or what kind of state we will be in without a glorified body though.
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I’m not certain I understand where you are going with this.
But, the real differene you mention appears to be that Hell is not a permanent place after death. This is what would not be compatible.
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First, Hell is not really a place. If you insist it is, yes that would be a difference (though I doubt the Western or Eastern Churches would likewise insist). Second, Hell is permanent. It is simply that Copts do not believe it is a reality at this time, but will only be realized after the Final Judgment. Third, don’t confuse “Hell” (which is permanent) and “Hades” (which is temporary).
Do Coptics still pray to saints for intercession?
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Yes
Do they believe that one can still sin in the next life before the final judgment?
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Not “actual sin” as Latins would call it. But in the next life before the final judgment, we believe that there is a state of “sinfulness” that is punished or cleansed, according to the Justice of God.
Does one not have the beatified vision of God before the second coming?
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From my understanding of that Latin concept, no. If Latins believe the beatific vision to be the ultimate reward of the Blessed, then Copts would say that ultimate reward cannot occur until we are reunited to our bodies at the Endtime.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I’m not sure I even understand the concept but I have heard that until the Final Judgment, those in Heaven do not yet have their bodies. I don’t know what that means they have but it is something less than what is granted at the Final Judgment. So perhaps there is some common ground even with that aspect.

What I wonder is if God is outside of time then wouldn’t Heaven be outside of time and therefore not on the same linear time path as we are. If that is the case then wouldn’t one be able to go to the time period of the final judgment soon after their initial judgment? Or for that matter see what time was like a thousand years ago?
 
WJP, I have also often wondered about these same things, mind bogggling isnt it? And for me just the concept of existence without time as we know time here on Earth in this life is something that I personally have trouble wrapping my head around. Well before I get a headache . . . How great and awesome our God is, we cant even begin to imagine.
 
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