C
Cathryn
Guest
If Catholics understood the theology of the body, it would change the world.
- Status
If Catholics understood the theology of the body, it would change the world.
R
Rachele_Ann
Guest
I think the article makes a very valid point. I don’t think it is a problem isolated to the Church it is rampant in our treatment of little boys. Boys are often discouraged from roughhousing, competition etc. There has been a lot of talk in the news in recent years about schools banning games like tag at recess, and sports teams where everyone wins, the change in the acceptance of boys playing with toy guns is already different from when I was a child.
The solution, is going to take men and women. Women to raise up boys as boys and not as girls. Women to make a point not to put down men with all the “dumb men” jokes that abound as someone else mentioned, and women to allow men to lead when its reasonable that they do so. Men need to understand their role in God’s plan for humanity, I second the Theology of the Body posters! Men can’t do it without women supporting them.
Sorry for another woman posting on this subject. This thread has estrogen poisoning.
This also reminds me of another article I read about evangelical men and their churches. crosswalk.com/blogs/dean/11541604/
Peace In Him,
Rachele
The solution, is going to take men and women. Women to raise up boys as boys and not as girls. Women to make a point not to put down men with all the “dumb men” jokes that abound as someone else mentioned, and women to allow men to lead when its reasonable that they do so. Men need to understand their role in God’s plan for humanity, I second the Theology of the Body posters! Men can’t do it without women supporting them.
Sorry for another woman posting on this subject. This thread has estrogen poisoning.
This also reminds me of another article I read about evangelical men and their churches. crosswalk.com/blogs/dean/11541604/
Peace In Him,
Rachele
L
Lepanto
Guest
Very true. Boys are often perceived as misbehaving girls.
W
whatevergirl
Guest
Somewhat true! Yes, I agree…however, my son is on the high school football team–and believe me, they are trained to be competitive. I think as his mom, I have often baby-ed my son (and daughter) into being less of a rough houser, and thank heavens my husband took over ‘that part’ of the parenting process. There are some things that a mom simply cannot do…and I cannot teach my son how to be a man. I can teach him morals, how to treat women, etc…but not how to be a strong, confident Catholic man…it has to come from his dad. Just my thoughts. Not that single moms cannot raise extraordinary men…please know I am not insinuating that…but, for me–I am more passive than my husband, and I don’t have a man’s mind, simply put-so I view life differently than my husband. For example, I don’t want my son to get hurt in football. My husband tells him, you might get hurt in football, that’s part of the game.I think the article makes a very valid point. I don’t think it is a problem isolated to the Church it is rampant in our treatment of little boys. Boys are often discouraged from roughhousing, competition etc. There has been a lot of talk in the news in recent years about schools banning games like tag at recess, and sports teams where everyone wins, the change in the acceptance of boys playing with toy guns is already different from when I was a child.
The solution, is going to take men and women. Women to raise up boys as boys and not as girls. Women to make a point not to put down men with all the “dumb men” jokes that abound as someone else mentioned, and women to allow men to lead when its reasonable that they do so. Men need to understand their role in God’s plan for humanity, I second the Theology of the Body posters! Men can’t do it without women supporting them.
Sorry for another woman posting on this subject. This thread has estrogen poisoning.
This also reminds me of another article I read about evangelical men and their churches. crosswalk.com/blogs/dean/11541604/
Peace In Him,
Rachele
This is a very insightful thread.
H
Hellisreal
Guest
Mary and Joseph did okay.
C
Cathryn
Guest
These are some of the things I’m learning from Catholic teaching, that isn’t real popular. Men and women are equal in human dignity and made in the image and likeness of God, but they have different roles in marriage. The role of the husband to the wife is the role of Christ to His Church. The husband is the head of the family and the wife is the body of the family. Wives who want equality and their own identities, etc. in their marriages are killing love. The family unity is the kingdom of God on earth. A Catholic marriage is the cross, and a journey to eternal salvation with Christ. The children are the fruits of the marriage. It’s about sacrifice, as well as love. Bishop Fulton Sheen wrote a wonderful book called Three To Get Married and explains it so beautifully. John Paul II left even greater explanations in Theology of the Body.
M
MCL
Guest
I read the article in its entirety.
In my reading of the article, the author was not saying that women working in the church was the cause of fewer men working but the effect of cultural forces upon the church during the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s that drew men away from spirituality and the church, therefore leaving fewer men than women as various ministers.
I have to say, that I agree with most of the article. Our culture in general has mixed up the definitions of feminimity and masculinity which has affected our church.
I am glad to see seminaries address the issues.
In my reading of the article, the author was not saying that women working in the church was the cause of fewer men working but the effect of cultural forces upon the church during the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s that drew men away from spirituality and the church, therefore leaving fewer men than women as various ministers.
I have to say, that I agree with most of the article. Our culture in general has mixed up the definitions of feminimity and masculinity which has affected our church.
I am glad to see seminaries address the issues.
D
duskyjewel
Guest
I understand you were trying to be brief… but I think this is a misreading of male headship. My husband is very much the leader of the family. His character is much the defining one of our family ethic. BUT I am 100% his equal, both in dignity as a creature made in God’s image and in the dynamic of our marriage because he acknowledges and treats me as such. Being a meek, dominated, voiceless doormat has nothing to do with Catholic marriage. As for the identity thing… I took my husband’s name, and my main role in life is as his wife and my children’s mother. But I have my own distinct identity from my husband. I am a person, not an appendage. My husband fell in love with me and married me because of who I am. How much of a bait and switch would it be for me to suddenly stop being that person or acting the way I did before because of some idea of how I “should” be inside marriage? My husband would hate it if I suddenly started subsuming myself into his identity and lost my own. Plus, how neurotic and needy would that look to him? Maybe my husband is unique, but he likes me challenging. “Stupid women are boring,” is his favorite way of putting this, stupid translated as “having nothing of their own to offer.” He wouldn’t want a woman who didn’t have her own opinions and offer them, and even argue with him. He wouldn’t want a woman who meekly goes along and doesn’t challenge him when he is wrong. None of my assertiveness has killed his love for me. He would, as Dr. Laura puts it, swim through shark-infested waters to bring me a lemonade.
And he is a traditional guy who goes to Mass every week. The writers of the article would love him. He rides a motorcycle to work, loves guns and knives and military technology, served his country, roughhouses with his kids. He is quietly strong and faithful, but vocal about right and wrong when he has to be. He lives for his family and would give his life to protect us without hesitating. He is tender with his children, but also knows how to use that baritone voice or swat a tush to gain control and order. He lives and teaches traditional values. I am very blessed, because I have one of the male role models the article extols living in my house!
I agree the Church needs more of them.
N
Norseman82
Guest
I would like to expand upon this point.
In my observation, what has been attacked are male traits such as decisiveness and assertiveness. There is a false sense of Christ-likeness that states that confrontation is not Christian, and imitation of Christ is OK when you are being spit upon but not OK when it is time to turn over a few tables.
And these are traits that females need to use as well.
How are we going to fight sin and correct the sinner if we are not allowed to fight, assert, and confront? Or when we need to defend the faith in apologetics? How much has this contributed to the lack of cathechesis that gripped much of the church during the “formless void” years between the Baltimore and updated Cathechisms?
How are we going to be able to say “No” to our children when necessary if we are made to feel guilty every time we engage in confrontation? How much has this contributed to discipline problems?
How are we ever going to get anything done if we are constantly second-guessing ourselves with an often unfounded fear that God does not want us to do something, even though there is no sound theological or moral reason for that fear? How much has this contributed to people not getting married and the difficulty in finding a Catholic spouse? And on a side note, how many Catholic males end up looking outside the Church for a spouse because they are rebuffed when they do look in the Church? (And I’m sure some of the females can say the same thing too).
These are only a few examples that I can think of off the top of my head. I’m sure others here can think of more.
W
whatevergirl
Guest
I just wanted to add something…being a man, has nothing to do with being violent…or liking violent things…or owning guns…Jesus was very non violent–He is the man that I want my husband to emulate. Not some neanderthal who is worshipped in Hollywood movies, and who doesn’t view women as equal.
Jesus is the role model for ALL men.
Jesus is the role model for ALL men.
J
Jay2
Guest
Not just “Catholic” men, but all men.
The general tone of society today undermines “being a man”. Whether his viewpoint was right or wrong, “being a man” used to mean a guy who was decisive, had an opinion, was honest, took action, and defended what was his.
Nowadays every one of these former “qualities” comes under scrutiny… and not just by neighbors & friends, but by entire organizations who’s cause is to the contrary!
Society is trying to meld the sexes into some kind of “mush in the middle”… where everyone is equal, regardless of pre-destined biological programming.
Men (or males in general) biologically have violent tendencies. We are programmed to protect, fight, and defend. Our contests (even as little boys) involve physical tests… who’s bigger, stronger, runs faster, climbs higher, throws farther. Our bodies are even built for it… our muscles bulk up, develop, and gain strength in huge disproportion to our female counterparts.
It used to be that in a contest there was a winner… ONE winner, who got the prize or the accolades. The contestants that didn’t “win” either: Learned & tried harder next time, realized that they just couldn’t match, or bowed out and tried something else.
Now there are no “winners”, but “participants”. EVERYONE gets a prize. They don’t even keep score anymore. They’ve taken the drive to excel out of youth sport & contests.
What society (and women) need to realize is that there is a time & place to exercise these male traits, or enjoy these contests. A large part of being a man is “Just because you have it, doesn’t mean you have to use it”… but when you use it justly, there shouldn’t be repercussions.
On the flip side of this - an equally important part of “being a man” is admitting being wrong. If a man’s particular viewpoint or response turned out to be wrong, he used to be “man enough” to suck it up, admit it, and take the consequences without recourse.
(as far as owning guns or “gun control”… shooting is an incredible sport. There is some serious skill, involving eye, hand & body control to hit a target 100’s of yds. away. Gun Control… use a two-hand grip.
Guns in the hands of idiots or “gangbangers” are another story. Please don’t lump shooting enthusiasts into the “Guns” problem.)
Being a “real man” is much more than knowing how to throw a punch or shoot a gun… it’s knowing when NOT to!!
That’s my .02, and I’ll shut up for now…
The general tone of society today undermines “being a man”. Whether his viewpoint was right or wrong, “being a man” used to mean a guy who was decisive, had an opinion, was honest, took action, and defended what was his.
Nowadays every one of these former “qualities” comes under scrutiny… and not just by neighbors & friends, but by entire organizations who’s cause is to the contrary!
Society is trying to meld the sexes into some kind of “mush in the middle”… where everyone is equal, regardless of pre-destined biological programming.
I partially dis-agree here. Jesus was 1 of a kind… never to be repeated or copied. The best the rest of us men can do is to emulate Him and His actions.
Men (or males in general) biologically have violent tendencies. We are programmed to protect, fight, and defend. Our contests (even as little boys) involve physical tests… who’s bigger, stronger, runs faster, climbs higher, throws farther. Our bodies are even built for it… our muscles bulk up, develop, and gain strength in huge disproportion to our female counterparts.
It used to be that in a contest there was a winner… ONE winner, who got the prize or the accolades. The contestants that didn’t “win” either: Learned & tried harder next time, realized that they just couldn’t match, or bowed out and tried something else.
Now there are no “winners”, but “participants”. EVERYONE gets a prize. They don’t even keep score anymore. They’ve taken the drive to excel out of youth sport & contests.
What society (and women) need to realize is that there is a time & place to exercise these male traits, or enjoy these contests. A large part of being a man is “Just because you have it, doesn’t mean you have to use it”… but when you use it justly, there shouldn’t be repercussions.
On the flip side of this - an equally important part of “being a man” is admitting being wrong. If a man’s particular viewpoint or response turned out to be wrong, he used to be “man enough” to suck it up, admit it, and take the consequences without recourse.
(as far as owning guns or “gun control”… shooting is an incredible sport. There is some serious skill, involving eye, hand & body control to hit a target 100’s of yds. away. Gun Control… use a two-hand grip.
Guns in the hands of idiots or “gangbangers” are another story. Please don’t lump shooting enthusiasts into the “Guns” problem.)
Herein lies the problem. Society is undermining “real men”. Society’s definition of “real men” is the aforementioned neanderthal… not a male possessing a spine, an opinion, beliefs, and the fortitude to defend himself (verbally or physically) when the need arises.
Being a “real man” is much more than knowing how to throw a punch or shoot a gun… it’s knowing when NOT to!!
That’s my .02, and I’ll shut up for now…
W
whatevergirl
Guest
I want to know where everyone’s kids are going to school where they don’t keep score. My son has played football for years, and they keep score…to a fault.
You make some good points Jay.
I am grateful I married a good Catholic man…I have seen the alternative out there, and I pray that my husband and I raise our son to be a solid good man–and that our daughter knows the difference between one who isn’t and one who is.
There are plenty of ‘real men’ out there…I think we just need to look around us–they are there.
My son has played football for years, and they keep score…to a fault.You make some good points Jay.
I am grateful I married a good Catholic man…I have seen the alternative out there, and I pray that my husband and I raise our son to be a solid good man–and that our daughter knows the difference between one who isn’t and one who is.
There are plenty of ‘real men’ out there…I think we just need to look around us–they are there.
D
dessert
Guest
Not from where I see. Our Knights teach the rosary to our school kids. Our men after mass lead the rosary shared role by the ladies and we have a fair number of EHMC men here. we actually have to get in line and they serve us breadkfastss and dinners but they pay too We have a large boy scout troop that does a lot too.
come to think of it not sure if we have a girl scout troop, I will have to find out. Our Catholic men are Tigers.
D.
We have a large boy scout troop that does a lot too.come to think of it not sure if we have a girl scout troop, I will have to find out.
Our Catholic men are Tigers.D.
W
whatevergirl
Guest
Not from where I see. Our Knights teach the rosary to our school kids. Our men after mass lead the rosary shared role by the ladies and we have a fair number of EHMC men here. we actually have to get in line and they serve us breadkfastss and dinners but they pay too
come to think of it not sure if we have a girl scout troop, I will have to find out.
D.
great post! thank you for sharing. (what did you mean by your first sentence though? ‘not from where i see…’)
R
RomanCrusader
Guest
When thinking about Catholic masculinity, one should remember our heroic crusader ancestors.
http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/838/5107070.JPG
These men were not pushovers at all!
http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/838/5107070.JPG
These men were not pushovers at all!
W
whatevergirl
Guest
My husband is a knight of columbus member, and he said that if need be…he would literally have to defend his faith.
Great pics!!!
R
RomanCrusader
Guest
Thank youMy husband is a knight of columbus member, and he said that if need be…he would literally have to defend his faith.
Great pics!!!
KoC are a very noble organization that benefits both its members and the Catholic flock as a whole. Your husband is a true Defensor Fidei (Defender of the Faith), and ideally all Catholic men would adopt a similar Defensor Fidei mindset.
Here are a few more pics I like. You can understand why the Saracen and Turkish soldiers fled in terror at the sight of brave Catholic warriors!
http://www.echobasetoys.com/More_12_inch_Stuff_Pics/Ignite_Pics/IGN-CU011.jpg
http://www.finerareprints.com/travel/houze/8450.jpg
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
L
Lepanto
Guest
Great pictures! No metrosexuals here!Thank you
KoC are a very noble organization that benefits both its members and the Catholic flock as a whole. Your husband is a true Defensor Fidei (Defender of the Faith), and ideally all Catholic men would adopt a similar Defensor Fidei mindset.
Here are a few more pics I like. You can understand why the Saracen and Turkish soldiers fled in terror at the sight of brave Catholic warriors!
http://www.echobasetoys.com/More_12_inch_Stuff_Pics/Ignite_Pics/IGN-CU011.jpg
http://members.tripod.com/Preachan/icons/teutonic_knt.gif
http://www.finerareprints.com/travel/houze/8450.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/magazine_enl_1115205720/img/1.jpg
R
RomanCrusader
Guest
Lepanto, I LOVE your username. The battle of Lepanto was a great Catholic victory.
A
Alphonsus_John
Guest
I can’t comment on the article so much, as my parish doesn’t use EEC’s, and the lectern is split pretty evenly between men and women. The choir is also about 50/50.
However, I recoil in disgust at the way fathers and men in general are portrayed on TV.
However, I recoil in disgust at the way fathers and men in general are portrayed on TV.
- Status