Are Catholic men being turned into wimps?

[RACJ]

*The irony of this thread…is hidden in the question…are Catholic men ‘being turned into’ wimps? By who? Women?

Let me say this, my husband is very much a masculine man through and through…not because I give him permission to be. *

No one turns anyone into anything. We can go on and on about feminism…but, the reality is…no one turns anyone into anything. I do believe there is a link between the radical feminist movement and men behaving as ‘traditional’ men…no doubt, I wouldn’t deny that exists. But, being a traditional, strong Catholic man is very doable in today’s world.

 I don't know, WEG. Boys who exhibit masculinity today are often prescribed sedative drugs. My four girls went through Catholic HS in Scranton, and an EXTREMELY high percentage of the boys in all their classes were somewhat effeminate. So, I think that masculinity CAN be drummed out of some males. Now, I'm not blaming anyone in particular. I do know that male dropout rates are staggering, and I think in part it has to do with the fact that "feminized" school holds little interest for many boys.
 Then, the court system lives in fear of the harangues from Women's Resource Centers, and I've seen "judges" render devastating decisions in child custody cases, giving kids to drug-addicted trashy mothers rather than risk feminists' wrath. My BIL, for one, is all masculine, but he was beaten down over the course of years, and is very cynical today. Probably no longer good husband material. :( Rob

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Far too many people have bought into feminist lies. It’s tragic, as feminism degrades both sexes.

 

[whatevergirl]

I don’t know, WEG. Boys who exhibit masculinity today are often prescribed sedative drugs. My four girls went through Catholic HS in Scranton, and an EXTREMELY high percentage of the boys in all their classes were somewhat effeminate. So, I think that masculinity CAN be drummed out of some males. Now, I’m not blaming anyone in particular. I do know that male dropout rates are staggering, and I think in part it has to do with the fact that “feminized” school holds little interest for many boys.
Then, the court system lives in fear of the harangues from Women’s Resource Centers, and I’ve seen “judges” render devastating decisions in child custody cases, giving kids to drug-addicted trashy mothers rather than risk feminists’ wrath. My BIL, for one, is all masculine, but he was beaten down over the course of years, and is very cynical today. Probably no longer good husband material. Rob

***Oh yes, I know…I know it exists…But cyncism and wimpiness are two different things.

I will say this…THIS IS KEY…I can’t recall who said this, it was a christian football coach…ugh, his name escapes me! He said the problem with boys today…is that women are raising them. (one parent homes, raised by moms) TONY DUNGEE, that’s the name!

Now, what he meant by that, was not to say that women are not doing everything they can to raise solid young men…but that there are too many one parent homes, often times the women raising the boys alone, and let’s face it…I cannot teach my son to be a MAN. I can’t. MY NATURAL TENDENCY is to nurture him, run to his aid, comfort him when life gets hard. (same thing I do for my daughter) I KNOW that if my husband were not around…if I was going alone at raising our son…he probably wouldn’t have a keen understanding of what it means to be a strong, traditional man in today’s society. He can learn from me what I THINK that means, but boys need to see men in their own lives…living up to that. They need strong male role models. And sadly, it isn’t happening as much as it should in today’s world.

And that is one of the things on the feminist agenda…inch men out of the picture. They are nothing but sperm donors. Sad. Tragic, even.

So…there are numerous things going on here, but I thought Tony Dungee’s observations were very interesting. (I don’t know how to spell his name) ***

 

[whatevergirl]

Far too many people have bought into feminist lies. It’s tragic, as feminism degrades both sexes.

***I agree. ***

 

[whatevergirl]

Good point. If we really have so much power, even to turn strong men into wimps, then why not simply acknowledge our vast superiority over you?

If a man wants to be the strong, decisive one, he should not be standing there awaiting permission from his wife or his mother to do so.



Right. Every adult is accountable for his or her own decisions. You cannot “make” another person do anything they haven’t already decided to do, and nobody can “make” you do anything, either, against your will.

---

You know, then there is the flipside of things. Look at all the laws, designed to mainly back women…against sexual harassment. Now, sexual harassment is a very real and serious thing. The laws were designed to protect women against having to work in a seemingly ‘hostile’ work environment. Ok…well, again…here is a law that starts off with good intentions, and goes awry. Many women don’t like ‘overhearing’ a dirty joke told by two men at work…etc…so, the woman goes running to her HR Dept. I don’t think we should be sitting around telling ditry jokes at work, but women want it both ways, sometimes. Pay me equally, treat me equally…BUT…don’t treat me like one of the guys Is that what we are saying? Hmm.

So, there are lots of mixed messages sent to men nowadays, and ultimately, it leaves many men unwilling to fight the battle, if anything out of fear of being sued! :shrug:

So…it’s not a black and white thing, this topic, I don’t believe. It has so many tenticles…

I don’t think we can blame women…or men…exclusively. I think both sexes have done an equal amount of damage as to where we are with all of this. ***

 

[whatevergirl]

***One more sentiment on this…from the peanut gallery.

I don’t think that feminists are winning much. I mean, empty victories. Abortion is not a victory. And I don’t think women have come all that far…yeah, equal pay and voting. A woman ran for president this past year. That is very far from where we were a century ago, indeed. But, when you look at how strip clubs are booming, there seems to be a new one going up every day in Florida…how popular and frequented porn sites are for men (thee most ‘hit’ websites out there ‘experts’ say)…how at lunch, I drive by Hooters, and see the men pouring out of their cars to be entertained during their lunchours…how far have women really come in today’s society when these forms of entertainment are in such demand?

To me, those establishments wouldn’t be so popular if men weren’t paying for them to stay in business. But, they wouldn’t have entertainers, if those women thought they could do something more with their lives, than be objectified by men. So…where does the problem lie? ***

 

[mystagogia]

Ok…well, again…here is a law that starts off with good intentions, and goes awry. Many women don’t like ‘overhearing’ a dirty joke told by two men at work…etc…so, the woman goes running to her HR Dept. I don’t think we should be sitting around telling ditry jokes at work, but women want it both ways, sometimes. Pay me equally, treat me equally…BUT…don’t treat me like one of the guys Is that what we are saying? Hmm.

When both sexes are around each other their behaviors change. This has always been true. Sometimes the change is positive. Putting women in the mix does naturally improve men’s behavior towards the positive. It gets the proverbial frat house cleaned up and activates good behavior modes for the most part.

But these sexual harassment laws are a chill wind if there ever was one. Saying the wrong thing has actually become criminalized, and very damaging personally even if the charge is proved spurious (see: Clarence Thomas, Anita Hill, and the Coke can).

If anyone thinks these laws don’t ‘wimpify’ men, let me tell you they have a palpable effect that gets men in walk-on-eggshell mode around women in the office to a large degree. We’re put on notice, and a kind of adversarial aspect sweeps through the door. Even if the particular woman in question is entirely reasonable and can be trusted to take things as they were intended, you can’t take that chance. In my workplace no longer can a man meet privately with a female colleague, superior or underling. It’s official policy and not following it will get you in trouble, because when a man deals with a woman on the job the company wants witnesses to protect itself – from the claims of the woman.

Yes, we can go on describing all these idealized states of gender relations and how they ought to be. And we talk about the real men of virtue and wonder where all the John Waynes went. That’s all good, and I would like it if sanity and health overtook our current gender relations.

I’m a man, and I’m not a misogynist. In fact I’m a huge fan of women, I love them and do cherish the ones I’m lucky to have in my life, such as my mother, my wife, my nieces, and the Virgin Mary. But, seriously, you want to know why men are being turned into wimps? They’re being feminized. Maybe not by any woman individually on this board, but by a society in which all elements are being feminized. Women’s gains come at a cost, there are no freebies, and you must be honest about that.

You have to decide collectively somehow how far you want it to go, because as I see it men’s reactions have been to cede things, to drop out, not to push back. Right now, culturally, girls rule.

 

[ghssd]

trade9shoes.com

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

***I agree. ***

There are even TV shows I like (Kim Possible, Johnny Test) that I’m looking at with a jaundiced eye: Kim can do anything, but her sidekick Ron is an idiot. Johnny Test’s two sisters are geniuses, but Dad wears an apron and lacks a spine, let alone a ‘pair.’

Abortion is indeed a victory—for Satan.

 

[whatevergirl]

There are even TV shows I like (Kim Possible, Johnny Test) that I’m looking at with a jaundiced eye: Kim can do anything, but her sidekick Ron is an idiot. Johnny Test’s two sisters are geniuses, but Dad wears an apron and lacks a spine, let alone a ‘pair.’

Abortion is indeed a victory—for Satan.

*Hi sailor

It’s funny you mention tv shows…they make me so angry sometimes! When did it suddenly become ‘acceptable’ for men and women to hit one another, like combative type scenarios, on tv? The Matrix, and on and on…where women are beating up men, men hitting women…it’s insane! How will men learn that hitting a woman is wrong, and visa versa, if it is portrayed as acceptable on air?

I don’t watch much tv, frankly, especially sitcoms. Yes, men are stupid, and cowering under a woman’s shaking finger (ie Everyone Loves Raymond) – it makes me sad where this is heading. *

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

*Hi sailor

It’s funny you mention tv shows…they make me so angry sometimes! When did it suddenly become ‘acceptable’ for men and women to hit one another, like combative type scenarios, on tv? The Matrix, and on and on…where women are beating up men, men hitting women…it’s insane! How will men learn that hitting a woman is wrong, and visa versa, if it is portrayed as acceptable on air?

I don’t watch much tv, frankly, especially sitcoms. Yes, men are stupid, and cowering under a woman’s shaking finger (ie Everyone Loves Raymond) – it makes me sad where this is heading. *

All I watch on TV now are cooking shows and a handful of cartoons. If there’s anything contemporary on TV that shows men who aren’t cowering wimps, I’m not aware of it.

Only the Japanese imports seem to show courageous men with women who aren’t shrews, and those are mostly fantasy settings.

 

[mystagogia]

My wife is addicted to House. I’ve never sat through the whole thing, but from what I gather the character House, a brilliant pysician, is clearly not a whimp. He’s also hard to like, for me at least. He’s extremely cynical and seems to have a dark outlook on life. He’s like a Hawkeye Piece from MAS*H, except without the wit, humor and charm that Hawkeye often displayed. House lives alone, in constant pain seemingly from some injury or disease, in some kind of bleak existential state.

Another show she’s addicted to is 24. Jack Bauer, the hero, is also not a whimp. He also lives somewhat outside society, on its borders. Alone, never a full, healthy participant in daily life.

 

[Dtmccameron]

My wife is addicted to House. … 24. …He also lives somewhat outside society, on its borders. Alone, never a full, healthy participant in daily life.

Interesting observation sir! The only “men” left, as depicted on TV are miserable societal outcasts.

…Indeed, the more I think of any male characters on TV, the more they seem to share one attribute.

Misery.

Lonesome misery.

Perhaps they need to become cowaring fools in order to obtain happiness?

Say now! Cowaring fools are indeed easier to control, don’t you think?

Do you suppose the goverment has been over the years, through the influence of television emasculating Americans so that they’ll be too stupid, afraid and subservient to challenge it?

 

[Markstorm]

Analogous to House is Dr. Cox on the recently-ended show Scrubs. Alpha male, brilliant physician, eventual Chief of Medicine, but of course easily tamed and manipulated by the oh-so-strong and spunky nurse Carla Espinosa. And, naturally, he’s a heavy drinker and enjoys a dysfunctional relationship with his wife.

The most popular character on the show is the effeminate JD. He’s hilarious, and I’m really sorry the show’s over, but I have to agree that the show exhibits those cultural elements that you guys are pointing out in this thread.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Interesting observation sir! The only “men” left, as depicted on TV are miserable societal outcasts.

…Indeed, the more I think of any male characters on TV, the more they seem to share one attribute.

Misery.

Lonesome misery.

Perhaps they need to become cowaring fools in order to obtain happiness?

Say now! Cowaring fools are indeed easier to control, don’t you think?

Do you suppose the goverment has been over the years, through the influence of television emasculating Americans so that they’ll be too stupid, afraid and subservient to challenge it?

Naaaah. Couldn’t possibly be the case.

 

[jmcrae]

My wife is addicted to House. I’ve never sat through the whole thing, but from what I gather the character House, a brilliant pysician, is clearly not a whimp. He’s also hard to like, for me at least. He’s extremely cynical and seems to have a dark outlook on life. He’s like a Hawkeye Piece from MAS*H, except without the wit, humor and charm that Hawkeye often displayed. House lives alone, in constant pain seemingly from some injury or disease, in some kind of bleak existential state.

Another show she’s addicted to is 24. Jack Bauer, the hero, is also not a whimp. He also lives somewhat outside society, on its borders. Alone, never a full, healthy participant in daily life.

The leading male characters on CSI are also not wimps, without going to the opposite extreme and being animalistic, too. I especially like the character of Horatio Caine. Over time, he is also discovering about fatherhood, as well, which is really cool to see developing in a TV show. I loved how in last night’s episode, he finally took responsibility for Julia, and began to be the man that she needs in her life - a minute late and a dollar short, but again, it’s a lot like in real life, isn’t it? And ultimately, they both grew up at the end of the episode. (I don’t think I gave away any essential plot items there.)

I first fell in love with Horatio Caine in one of the early episodes, where at the end of it, after catching the bad guy, he was going to visit the victim - a boy who had gone into a coma. He encounters the boy’s mother, and she says to him, “He squeezed my hand. I thought it meant he knew I was there. But the doctors say, it doesn’t mean anything - it’s just a reflex.” And she starts to cry. Horatio just looks at her for a minute, and then he says the most perfect thing to her - he says “You and I, Mrs. Jones - we know differently - don’t we?”

I was reading recently that the character of Gregory House is based loosely on Arthur Conan Doyle’s original concept of Sherlock Holmes - a brilliant, drug-addicted egotistical mysogynist who never fails to solve his puzzle - the writers have updated the character to fit into the modern world, though, and made him a physician instead of a private detective.

SPOILER ALERT

Last night’s episode was very poignant, though - the drugs have finally taken his mind, and he was admitted to an insane asylum at the end of the episode.

END SPOILER

 

[mystagogia]

On the girls’ side in our cultural depictions, what a refreshing phenomenon was Mia Hamm. Mia exuded excellence, strength of character, dedication, quality. In the world of women’s soccer everybody knew that when Mia Hamm took to the pitch you’d better bring your A-game because she always brought hers, and she was always lethal. And with grace and style. And after the inevitable victories she engineered, she did not particpate in the bizarre public disrobing rituals a la Brandy Chastain, and the sexy quasi-pornographic photo shoots.

Girls, deservedly, loved and admired her. When Mia got her Nike contract, however, the campaign was built around the song, “Anything you can do I can do better” and she was pitted in various scenarios taking on men and besting them in whatever competition. “NO!” I remember saying to myself at the time. Why must the message to our girls always have this in-your-face edge and fall back to a gender competition?

It does not have to be this way. This is a pity.

 

[ghrt]

trade9shoes.com

 

[whatevergirl]

On the girls’ side in our cultural depictions, what a refreshing phenomenon was Mia Hamm. Mia exuded excellence, strength of character, dedication, quality. In the world of women’s soccer everybody knew that when Mia Hamm took to the pitch you’d better bring your A-game because she always brought hers, and she was always lethal. And with grace and style. And after the inevitable victories she engineered, she did not particpate in the bizarre public disrobing rituals a la Brandy Chastain, and the sexy quasi-pornographic photo shoots.

Girls, deservedly, loved and admired her. When Mia got her Nike contract, however, the campaign was built around the song, “Anything you can do I can do better” and she was pitted in various scenarios taking on men and besting them in whatever competition. “NO!” I remember saying to myself at the time. Why must the message to our girls always have this in-your-face edge and fall back to a gender competition?

It does not have to be this way. This is a pity.

Great post, I agree. Sadly, the feminist goal is to make women compete with men, as if that is how I chalk up my worth? If I can do what a man can do, then I’m worth something? Women are beautiful creations of God…made unique, and yes, we can do many things…but, to out do men shouldn’t be the yardstick we measure our successes in life. It’s mind boggling when you stop to think about it long enough.

 

[Dtmccameron]

Great post, I agree. Sadly, the feminist goal is to make women compete with men, …

Madame!

There it is!!!

By getting humanity to compete with itself the devil divides us!

Weakens us!

And our hatred is directed at each other and not at him and he’s free to infiltrate society!

And while the sexes are battling, the families falling apart, and society collapsing, he’s free to use his pawns to enslave us!

The death of the family was the death of humanity! The death of respect for each other and treating one another with dignity was the death of the family.

:bigyikes: