Are Catholic priests allowed to advise using contraception?

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Blue_Horizon said:
Sounds like you two are much the same then :o.
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Hmm… do you disagree with the Church’s calling of contraception intrinsically evil, or do you just believe that it’s sometimes advisable to commit intrinsically evil acts?
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
Are you pro artificial contraception?
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I dont take arsenic, I believe poisoning is wrong…but the substance itself is not evil.
It seems a rule of life there can be a time and place for the use of most physical things given the right conditions. In which case we arent talking poisoning are we.
The Pope says as much also does he not?

So am I pro arsenic? 🤷.
 
Blue_Horizon said:
I dont take arsenic, I believe poisoning is wrong…but the substance itself is not evil.
It seems a rule of life there can be a time and place for the use of most physical things given the right conditions. In which case we arent talking poisoning are we.
The Pope says as much also does he not?

So am I pro arsenic? 🤷.
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Condoms are not poison. Can you answer strait. I remember from previous threads you towing the line as close as you could. But could you just clarify? Do you believe condoms can be used?
 
Blue_Horizon said:
I dont take arsenic, I believe poisoning is wrong…but the substance itself is not evil.
It seems a rule of life there can be a time and place for the use of most physical things given the right conditions. In which case we arent talking poisoning are we.
The Pope says as much also does he not?

So am I pro arsenic? 🤷.
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Do you have trouble answering my question directly?

Does a Catholic priest have the authority to advise couples to use condoms for the purpose of not getting pregnant?
 
rcwitness said:
Btw, wouldn’t the technical term be called a dispensation?
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It is possible to receive a dispensation for certain obligations in Canon Law (for example, a dispensation for Catholics to eat meat on a Friday in Lent when that falls of St. Patrick’s Day). It is not possible to receive a dispensation allowing a person to commit a sin that violates natural law. For example, there is no dispensation for adultery or perjury or abortion.

Since contraception is a matter of moral law and not canon law, there can be no dispensation to contracept. This is, of course, recognizing circumstances mentioned above in which a person may be permitted to continue marital relations with a spouse using contraception against his/her will or to take a drug that has infertility as an unintended side effect.
 
nodito said:
It is possible to receive a dispensation for certain obligations in Canon Law (for example, a dispensation for Catholics to eat meat on a Friday in Lent when that falls of St. Patrick’s Day). It is not possible to receive a dispensation allowing a person to commit a sin that violates natural law. For example, there is no dispensation for adultery or perjury or abortion.

Since contraception is a matter of moral law and not canon law, there can be no dispensation to contracept. This is, of course, recognizing circumstances mentioned above in which a person may be permitted to continue marital relations with a spouse using contraception against his/her will or to take a drug that has infertility as an unintended side effect.
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Even a dispensation of canon law requires the Bishop, right?
 
Blue_Horizon said:
I dont take arsenic, I believe poisoning is wrong…but the substance itself is not evil.
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We are much in agreement, then. There is nothing evil about the substance latex or the hormone estrogen.
Blue Horizon:
It seems a rule of life there can be a time and place for the use of most physical things given the right conditions. In which case we arent talking poisoning are we.
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I also agree. Estrogen and progestin are necessary to sustain some pregnancies. Latex makes for better hand hygiene and safety in hospitals. The substances are not evil; it is the act of contracepting that is evil. That is, the act of deliberately frustrating the procreative end of intercourse.
Blue Horizon:
The Pope says as much also does he not?
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The Pope has never contradicted Humanae Vitae.
 
nodito said:
The Pope has never contradicted Humanae Vitae.
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Right. The intention to use condoms with Aids and other STD’S is to prevent the disease, not the pregnancy. My wife’s intention was to not become pregnant, through distrust. Her distrust was valid and justified. The use of condoms, as a result of the distrust is not justifiable. Abstinence during this period is a ligitimate form of NFP, so long as efforts on both our part is to reconcile and return to marital relations.

My ex-priest had good intentions!!! I don’t blame his intentions. But the means was still wrong. And I resorted to a worse decision than his own. But the damage of his position has led my wife to feel justified in demanding contraception.
 
rcwitness said:
Right. It’s no wonder why most Catholics use contraception. We get mixed messages, if any message at all.

It’s either wrong to contracept (for the intention of not conceiving), or certain situations can justify using contraception.

All the Church Teachings, that I’ve seen, lead me to believe there are NOT justifiable reasons to contracept for the purpose of frustrating the life giving property of sex between husband and wife.

My parish priest told me that priests DO have the authority to advise the faithful (in certain situations) to use condoms for the sole purpose of not getting pregnant.

What bothers me about this, is that I had intentions to work on my problems through the help of counselling AND putting an end to the sin of contraception.

I have no intention of judging my wife or my priest friend. I only want to know if they both had justifiable reasons to advise and insist on using birth control, or if it was wrong for them both to do so.

If they are wrong, I am not out to judge them. How could I? I am a worse sinner! My intention is to reconcile with my wife! And I expect my pastor to counsel and guide me towards that in ways that are not opposed to the Catholic faith.
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  1. You are extremely unwise to air your deep marital and personal difficulties on CAF. You need professjonal help from people who know you and all the details. We here are neither.
  2. To pretend that you can ask an allegedly simple question separated from all the above detail and get a helpful answer is equally misguided. The very attitude that you can, and that you dont see this as disturbing, even more strongly suggests you need personal professional help to move fwd.
  3. It is clear that you and your wife have irreconcilable differences re use of contraceptives.
    If you cannot accept you may temporarily have to either abstain or be more flexible for “medical” reasons (eg the health/survival of your marriage) as your confessor advises then it is clear your marriage will unlikely survive.
  4. Clearly you have a boxful of psychological and situational reasons why your temporary use of a condom would unlikely be personally sinful or only venial at the most…even though objectively grave matter.
    It seems this is what your priest is trying to communicate to you. You have no trust in his guidance…you are therefore lost. You need to decide whether to trust him anyways or get a new confessor/guide. But dont come here.
  5. However you even in this thread demonstrate a tunnel vision re the temporary possibly useful place of a condom in you marriage so as to save it. Given that you are unlikely mortally personally sinning in the other regular compulsed sexual offending areas if your life (including masturbation due to abstinence?) your inflexibility to using condoms for your wifes sake is extremely dissonant and irrational.
  6. You avoided answering my question about scruples, and likely obsessive attitudes as well.
You demonstrate all the symptoms of a scrupulous penitent unable to follow or questioning the advice of his confessor.

If you accept that you are scrupulous and obsessive then you must cease questioning your confessor. You must stop trying to get advice here from us amateurs who are not aware of your personality.
God does not expect you to do what you believe is correct under these conditions.
He just wants you to follow his voice in the priest he has made available to you.
Whether he is wholly right or wrong is of no consequence. God will not hold you accountable for trusting His priest given that your own conscience cannot be trusted due to your condition.

If i am wrong about the scruples and compulsed moral views then by all means go your own way. However from my pastoral experience it will not work and you will likely lose your marriage which seems to have little chance of survival given the present trajectory.
 
nodito said:
We are much in agreement, then. There is nothing evil about the substance latex or the hormone estrogen.

I also agree. Estrogen and progestin are necessary to sustain some pregnancies. Latex makes for better hand hygiene and safety in hospitals. The substances are not evil; it is the act of contracepting that is evil. That is, the act of deliberately frustrating the procreative end of intercourse.

The Pope has never contradicted Humanae Vitae.
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For the love of God.
Your serious personal and marital issues will not be helped one iota by your amateur dabbling and self justifying quibbling in an over intellectualised moral theology.
You are the one with the major issues not your wife.
I am done here, this discussion is only feeding your problems.

I suggest other posters do likewise.
 
Blue_Horizon said:
  1. You are extremely unwise to air your deep marital and personal difficulties on CAF. You need professjonal help from people who know you and all the details. We here are neither.
  2. To pretend that you can ask an allegedly simple question separated from all the above detail and get a helpful answer is equally misguided. The very attitude that you can, and that you dont see this as disturbing, even more strongly suggests you need personal professional help to move fwd.
  3. It is clear that you and your wife have irreconcilable differences re use of contraceptives.
    If you cannot accept you may temporarily have to either abstain or be more flexible for “medical” reasons (eg the health/survival of your marriage) as your confessor advises then it is clear your marriage will unlikely survive.
  4. Clearly you have a boxful of psychological and situational reasons why your temporary use of a condom would unlikely be personally sinful or only venial at the most…even though objectively grave matter.
    It seems this is what your priest is trying to communicate to you. You have no trust in his guidance…you are therefore lost. You need to decide whether to trust him anyways or get a new confessor/guide. But dont come here.
  5. However you even in this thread demonstrate a tunnel vision re the temporary possibly useful place of a condom in you marriage so as to save it. Given that you are unlikely mortally personally sinning in the other regular compulsed sexual offending areas if your life (including masturbation due to abstinence?) your inflexibility to using condoms for your wifes sake is extremely dissonant and irrational.
  6. You avoided answering my question about scruples, and likely obsessive attitudes as well.
You demonstrate all the symptoms of a scrupulous penitent unable to follow or questioning the advice of his confessor.

If you accept that you are scrupulous and obsessive then you must cease questioning your confessor. You must stop trying to get advice here from us amateurs who are not aware of your personality.
God does not expect you to do what you believe is correct under these conditions.
He just wants you to follow his voice in the priest he has made available to you.
Whether he is wholly right or wrong is of no consequence. God will not hold you accountable for trusting His priest given that your own conscience cannot be trusted due to your condition.

If i am wrong about the scruples and compulsed moral views then by all means go your own way. However from my pastoral experience it will not work and you will likely lose your marriage which seems to have little chance of survival given the present trajectory.
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Blue_Horizon said:
For the love of God.
Your serious personal and marital issues will not be helped one iota by your amateur dabbling and self justifying quibbling in an over intellectualised moral theology.
You are the one with the major issues not your wife.
I am done here, this discussion is only feeding your problems.

I suggest other posters do likewise.
Click to expand...
Very uncharitable. 🤷
 
Blue_Horizon said:
For the love of God.
Your serious personal and marital issues will not be helped one iota by your amateur dabbling and self justifying quibbling in an over intellectualised moral theology.
You are the one with the major issues not your wife.
I am done here, this discussion is only feeding your problems.

I suggest other posters do likewise.
Click to expand...
Um… that post you quoted was me. I’m not self justifying anything, thanks very much.
 
rcwitness said:
Right. The intention to use condoms with Aids and other STD’S is to prevent the disease, not the pregnancy.
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And which is still intrinsically disordered, even when used for the good intention of disease prevention.
 
Blue_Horizon said:
  1. You are extremely unwise to air your deep marital and personal difficulties on CAF. You need professjonal help from people who know you and all the details. We here are neither.
  2. To pretend that you can ask an allegedly simple question separated from all the above detail and get a helpful answer is equally misguided. The very attitude that you can, and that you dont see this as disturbing, even more strongly suggests you need personal professional help to move fwd.
  3. It is clear that you and your wife have irreconcilable differences re use of contraceptives.
    If you cannot accept you may temporarily have to either abstain or be more flexible for “medical” reasons (eg the health/survival of your marriage) as your confessor advises then it is clear your marriage will unlikely survive.
  4. Clearly you have a boxful of psychological and situational reasons why your temporary use of a condom would unlikely be personally sinful or only venial at the most…even though objectively grave matter.
    It seems this is what your priest is trying to communicate to you. You have no trust in his guidance…you are therefore lost. You need to decide whether to trust him anyways or get a new confessor/guide. But dont come here.
  5. However you even in this thread demonstrate a tunnel vision re the temporary possibly useful place of a condom in you marriage so as to save it. Given that you are unlikely mortally personally sinning in the other regular compulsed sexual offending areas if your life (including masturbation due to abstinence?) your inflexibility to using condoms for your wifes sake is extremely dissonant and irrational.
  6. You avoided answering my question about scruples, and likely obsessive attitudes as well.
You demonstrate all the symptoms of a scrupulous penitent unable to follow or questioning the advice of his confessor.

If you accept that you are scrupulous and obsessive then you must cease questioning your confessor. You must stop trying to get advice here from us amateurs who are not aware of your personality.
God does not expect you to do what you believe is correct under these conditions.
He just wants you to follow his voice in the priest he has made available to you.
Whether he is wholly right or wrong is of no consequence. God will not hold you accountable for trusting His priest given that your own conscience cannot be trusted due to your condition.

If i am wrong about the scruples and compulsed moral views then by all means go your own way. However from my pastoral experience it will not work and you will likely lose your marriage which seems to have little chance of survival given the present trajectory.
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1). You are 100 percent correct. But then go on to offer advice!
2. Ditto
3. You start off strong but then have to go to “medical” in quotation marks and tie it to the health of the marriage. You couldn’t be more wrong. It would be more helpful if you just owned the position we all know you have instead of being coy
4. Yes he has problems. Pointing to the fact that his conscience knows the priest’s advice is wrong is not helpful. Are you prepared if based on your advice the op engages in sin? Are you willing to stand before God with culpability in another’s sexual sins!?
5. Offer to take his place at judgement then, you start off by stating how unwise it is to ask this here and then completely demonstrate the point!!! Unbelievable!
6. at first I thought you were off base here. Implying that anyone who dared follow this moral law when it’s hard is scrupulous. But then I realized something, you are right. The behavior of the scrupulous points to a sin ( sometimes others sin or wrongdoing). In this case the priest. And ignores the logical conclusion. In this case living a chaste and holy marriage as we all are. So you are right but not for the right reasons.

I’m real glad you are done with this thread because I think you are doing damage with your misunderstanding of pastoral…
 
nodito said:
Um… that post you quoted was me. I’m not self justifying anything, thanks very much.
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Apologies Nodito.
I think it is clear its an honest mistake and as below RCWitness realised it was a response to his good self not you.
 
My understanding is that contraception is intrinsically evil and the end doesn’t justify the means…

do you have a parish near you with the FSSP? they seem to be very solid priests who know the Church teachings quite well. Maybe you could ask them for advice or seek the advice of another priest… I am not certain why the advice was to use contraception but in my understanding this is not the Church teaching. All the Church documents on this say otherwise.

I don’t think anyone here could give you very concrete advice about what to do in your situation… I think that really this is something to get help with outside of the forum, though I understand this must be very difficult for you. You would just get many different views on the forum though about what you should actually do, to help your marriage… and no one here really knows you. The only thing that could be said perhaps is the Church teaching on contraception, which is that it cannot be used. The Church only allows abstinence when it’s for a significant reason.
 
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