Are Catholicism and protestantism different religions?

[rcwitness]

Orthodox Protestantism does not teach that anyone can be saved apart from faith in Christ. Paul’s teaching in Romans 2 about the law of God being written on the hearts of the Gentiles (the Jews of course having the law written in Scripture as well) was that nobody has an excuse before the throne of God for his guilt, and nobody who will be punished on the day of judgement will be able to say the punishment is unjust.

Thus, everyone needs a different righteousness, an alien righteousness, the righteousness of Christ which comes through faith.

Do they believe everyone without the knowledge of the Life of Jesus (Indians for example) is without the opportunity of salvation?

Faith is given to these in their own way. Ultimately through their conscience. We all have a natural law from being created in the image of God, which affords us the privaledge of living righteously. All who are able to please God must do so in the manner of a repentant heart. We all must acknowledge that God is our God because he chooses to be and we submit to His righteousness. This is a baptism of desire and seeking true participation in His sacrifice to be with us.

This is the definition of a basic religion which I acknowledge as in union with the Catholic Faith. The level of peoples rejection of a “more accurate” understanding of this Faith (and its Revelation in Jesus) is something I try to avoid judging, but continue to give testimony to Jesus fully within the Catholic Church.

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

Orthodox Protestantism does not teach that anyone can be saved apart from faith in Christ.

Given the 30,000 or so churches, sects, and cults which claim to be Protestant Christians, many of whom are diametrically opposed on basic issues, the notion of “Orthodox Protestantism” doesn’t have any intrinsic meaning.

Paul’s teaching in Romans 2 about the law of God being written on the hearts of the Gentiles (the Jews of course having the law written in Scripture as well) was that nobody has an excuse before the throne of God for his guilt, and nobody who will be punished on the day of judgement will be able to say the punishment is unjust.

The passage in question is Romans 2:14-16:

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Matthew Henry’s commentary says:

“He proves the equity of his proceedings with all, when he shall actually come to Judge them (Rom. 2:12-16), upon this principle, that that which is the rule of man’s obedience is the rule of God’s judgment. Three degrees of light are revealed to the children of men:”

“1. The light of nature. This the Gentiles have, and by this they shall be judged: As many as have sinned without law shall perish without law; that is, the unbelieving Gentiles, who had no other guide but natural conscience, no other motive but common mercies, and had not the law of Moses nor any supernatural revelation, shall not be reckoned with for the transgression of the law they never had, nor come under the aggravation of the Jews’ sin against and judgment by the written law; but they shall be judged by, as they sin against, the law of nature, not only as it is in their hearts, corrupted, defaced, and imprisoned in unrighteousness, but as in the uncorrupt original the Judge keeps by him. Further to clear this (Rom. 2:14, 15), in a parenthesis, he evinces that the light of nature was to the Gentiles instead of a written law.”

God is just. St Paul teaches that because He is just, men will not punished for what Catholics call “invincible ignorance”. On the other hand, the Gentiles will be judged by the law written in their hearts. Neither they nor the righteous Jews of the Old Testament, however, could attain everlasting life without the perfect one Atonement of our Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and this remains true even for those who never have the Gospel preached to them.

Salvation is only through Christ.

.

 

[Indifferently]

Do they believe everyone without the knowledge of the Life of Jesus (Indians for example) is without the opportunity of salvation?

God saves his elect through the means of grace - especially the preaching of the word - and the means of grace alone. Unbelievers are not saved.

Rom. 10:13-14 is working with this very assumption.
“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[a]

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Those who do not repent of thier sins and trust in Christ for their salvation are not saved. The Bible is crystal clear about this. (See what I mean when I speak of a fallible church sitting in judgement over the infallible word of God?)

Know this: God does not fail to save anyone whom he chooses to save. And whether or not you have heard the gospel and had an opportunity to repent, you are still just as guilty of your sins and condemnable on the basis of them. God is just.

 

[johnnyc176]

In any case, every teaching of the Church must be understood in context and continuity. The Church has, from its earliest times, recognized that those not joined to the visible Church are saved by Baptism of Blood, by Baptism of Desire, judged as St Paul taught by the law written in their hearts. That fairly destroys the apparent contradiction proposed by “outside the Church there is no salvation”…

Just a slight interjection…shouldn’t it be may be saved?

 

[rcwitness]

God saves his elect through the means of grace - especially the preaching of the word - and the means of grace alone. Unbelievers are not saved.

Indifferently, there are degrees of knowledge of Jesus revealed to people. This is the point of Paul’s explanation in Romans 2. The Jews were given the fullness of the Law and Promise, yet Gentiles were not given this degree of grace. Though it does not mean the Gentiles were without revealed truth and able to receive God’s Spirit. Jesus is the source of all Grace, yet not all people know about Him in the strict sense. Some may only know that God is their creator and He is good, despite our own sins, and that God suffers our sins in order to sustain our lives and so that we can share in His life. But they may have never heard about Jesus.

Rom. 10:13-14 is working with this very assumption.
“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[a]

And… “Not everyone who says, ‘Lord, Lord’… will be saved, but who does the will of God.”

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Paul says, “It is naturally written on their hearts, so becomes a law unto itself.”

Those who do not repent of thier sins and trust in Christ for their salvation are not saved. The Bible is crystal clear about this. (See what I mean when I speak of a fallible church sitting in judgement over the infallible word of God?)

This is for those who heard the gospel of Christ. Yet, we also know that there are levels of understanding and following the Way too! Acts 18:26 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue; but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him and expounded to him the way of God more accurately.

Know this: God does not fail to save anyone whom he chooses to save. And whether or not you have heard the gospel and had an opportunity to repent, you are still just as guilty of your sins and condemnable on the basis of them. God is just.

Paul’s point is that some may not have heard the good news, yet they ARE able to repent because they follow their conscience, which is a natural gift that can lead men to Godliness and salvation.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Indifferently, there are degrees of knowledge of Jesus revealed to people. This is the point of Paul’s explanation in Romans 2. The Jews were given the fullness of the Law and Promise, yet Gentiles were not given this degree of grace. Though it does not mean the Gentiles were without revealed truth and able to receive God’s Spirit. Jesus is the source of all Grace, yet not all people know about Him in the strict sense. Some may only know that God is their creator and He is good, despite our own sins, and that God suffers our sins in order to sustain our lives and so that we can share in His life. But they may have never heard about Jesus.

Paul says, “It is naturally written on their hearts, so becomes a law unto itself.”

The problem is not the revelation, it is man’s heart. God has revealed all that is necessary for man to worship and serve Him; both Jews and Gentiles have this knowledge, to a greater or lesser degree. Since man is a sinner, however, that law is distorted. The less long winded approach is that man, whether Jew or Gentile, cannot naturally, apart from God’s Spirit and grace, obey the law.

The only remedy for that is the grace of Christ in His preached gospel and in His sacraments. Apart from this, man will be held accountable for his sins. God shows no partiality.

 

[Cone]

Of course they’re different. Why would Protestants split form the Catholic Church if they were the same?

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

The less long winded approach is that man, whether Jew or Gentile, cannot naturally, apart from God’s Spirit and grace, obey the law.

Only God’s grace created existence itself from nothing and without His grace it would cease to exist.

Therefore - in one sense - nothing can be done without God’s grace, even disobeying the law.

This is the mystery of evil, God’s acquiescence to Man’s defiance of His will.

.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Only God’s grace created existence itself from nothing and without His grace it would cease to exist.

Therefore - in one sense - nothing can be done without God’s grace, even disobeying the law.

This is the mystery of evil, God’s acquiescence to Man’s defiance of His will.

.

I would agree, if we’re defining grace broadly. I am using it in its narrower sense as grace that is redemptive.

 

[rcwitness]

The problem is not the revelation, it is man’s heart. God has revealed all that is necessary for man to worship and serve Him; both Jews and Gentiles have this knowledge, to a greater or lesser degree. Since man is a sinner, however, that law is distorted. The less long winded approach is that man, whether Jew or Gentile, cannot naturally, apart from God’s Spirit and grace, obey the law.

The only remedy for that is the grace of Christ in His preached gospel and in His sacraments. Apart from this, man will be held accountable for his sins. God shows no partiality.

But Jesus’ power and forgiveness can be the cause of a remote Indians righteousness when he follows his conscience, yet was never preached the Gospel of Christ. It is the concept of being judged according to what we know. His repentance (and sins), as basic as it may be in its understanding of how God deals with it, is still put onto Jesus’ passion and sacrifice for all.

Luther for example … knew, weighed and judged certain Teachings of the Church to be false. This he will have to be judged accordingly. But my good friend in the Evangelical Free Church who was raised being preached a Gospel outside the Catholic fullness, is not rejecting these Teachings in the same manner which Martin did.

 

[rcwitness]

Of course they’re different. Why would Protestants split form the Catholic Church if they were the same?

Because they took our book and believe in it…

 

[Per_Crucem]

But Jesus’ power and forgiveness can be the cause of a remote Indians righteousness when he follows his conscience, yet was never preached the Gospel of Christ.

The thing with that, however, is that we have no basis in the revelation given to us by the apostles to definitively say that anyone has been saved apart from explicit faith in the Gospel. My knowledge is not exhaustive so I cannot say as a matter of fact that no one ever has. However, I know enough to know that I can’t say that anyone ever has been saved apart from the Gospel, because the Scriptures present me with no example of it.

It is the concept of being judged according to what we know.

Paul says we know enough to condemn us for not obeying it. And no one does.

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

The thing with that, however, is that we have no basis in the revelation given to us by the apostles to definitively say that anyone has been saved apart from explicit faith in the Gospel.

We have Paul writing to the Romans telling them the Gentiles will be judged by the law written in their hearts.

We have the constant tradition of the Church recognizing Baptism of Desire and of Blood, beginning with Old Testament worthies and the Holy Innocents.

I have never seen the proposition that explicit faith in the Gospel is necessary to salvation gain any traction under hard scrutiny.

It is, however, the ordinary means of salvation.

.

 

[rcwitness]

We have Paul writing to the Romans telling them the Gentiles will be judged by the law written in their hearts.

We have the constant tradition of the Church recognizing Baptism of Desire and of Blood, beginning with Old Testament worthies and the Holy Innocents.

I have never seen the proposition that explicit faith in the Gospel is necessary to salvation gain any traction under hard scrutiny.

It is, however, the ordinary means of salvation.

Romans 2

6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

He is talking about the gentiles who do not have the fullness of the Law such as the Jews do. Yet both are judged according to their works and able to seek the Lord unto Salvation. And both are able to remain condemned by the Law.

 

[Per_Crucem]

We have Paul writing to the Romans telling them the Gentiles will be judged by the law written in their hearts.

And in the very next chapter, he states,

“Now we know that whatever the law says speaks to those who are subject to the law, so that every mouth may be shut and the whole world may become subject to God’s judgment. For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin comes through the law.”

In other words, yes, they will be judged by the law written in their hearts. And that’s not a good thing, because they don’t keep it. As Paul says, “For we have previously charged that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin.”

 

[Kal2012]

Protestantism is not a monolith, so the question really can’t be answered.

There is almost nothing in common between an Anglican, a Bible Baptist, and a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints.

That’s why I had trouble answering the question too.

 

[rcwitness]

And in the very next chapter, he states,

“Now we know that whatever the law says speaks to those who are subject to the law, so that every mouth may be shut and the whole world may become subject to God’s judgment. For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin comes through the law.”

In other words, yes, they will be judged by the law written in their hearts. And that’s not a good thing, because they don’t keep it. As Paul says, “For we have previously charged that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin.”

The point is Per Crucem,

According to the Law wheather Jew or Gentile, we are worthy of death. Yet, the faith we are given, is that God is just and our deeds will reflect what we seek. The Gentile is able to seek Godliness unto salvation, not because he kept the natural Law from his heart, but because he was repentant for breaking the Law. This becomes the higher Law. The Law of mercy, which Jesus was the manifestation and source of the full mercy from God.

 

[Per_Crucem]

The point is Per Crucem,

According to the Law wheather Jew or Gentile, we are worthy of death. Yet, the faith we are given, is that God is just and our deeds will reflect what we seek. The Gentile is able to seek Godliness unto salvation

Not according to Romans 3. No one, naturally, seeks Godliness.

Faith is not that we believe God is just. We already know that by nature (Romans 1).
Faith is that, for the sake of the merits of Christ, God forgives man his sins, redeems his nature, and adopts him as His child. This is not revealed by the light of nature or in the heart of man. It is revealed by His word in the Gospel.

not because he kept the natural Law from his heart, but because he was repentant for breaking the Law. This becomes the higher Law. The Law of mercy, which Jesus was the manifestation and source of all mercy from God.

Repentance does not forgive sin for its own sake. It forgives sin because the sinner has faith that Christ has redeemed him. The pagan has no knowledge of this; the Jew and the Muslim reject it.

 

[rcwitness]

Not according to Romans 3. No one, naturally, seeks Godliness.

Faith is not that we believe God is just. We already know that by nature (Romans 1).
Faith is that, for the sake of the merits of Christ, God forgives man his sins, redeems his nature, and adopts him as His child. This is not revealed by the light of nature or in the heart of man. It is revealed by His word in the Gospel.

Now you’re just defining faith yourself. Why don’t you use the definition of faith from Scripture?

Hebrews 11
11 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old received divine approval. 3 By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.

Repentance does not forgive sin for its own sake. It forgives sin because the sinner has faith that Christ has redeemed him. The pagan has no knowledge of this; the Jew and the Muslim reject it.

You are not understanding Romans 2:6,7

At one point Paul even commends pagans for the “Unknown” God they gave reverence to and told them that is the God who saves them.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Now you’re just defining faith yourself. Why don’t you use the definition of faith from Scripture?

Hebrews 11
11 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old received divine approval. 3 By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.

We are not talking about faith as it existed in the period of the OT. That is what Hebrews is addressing. OT Jewish believers had faith in the promises that were to come through the Messiah and the promised redeemer.

This says nothing about pagans in the Amazon.

Romans 10 defines faith as it exists in the light of the Messiah who has already come.

You are not understanding Romans 2:6,7

At one point Paul even commends pagans for the “Unknown” God they gave reverence to and told them that is the God who saves them.

How am I not? Those who obey the law will receive glory, and honor. But no one obeys it. That is the entire point of Romans 3, which comes after 2.

The unknown God was not a singular deity that reflected Jewish thought. The pagans in Greece erected it to cover the other umpteen gods that existed that they did not know the name of.