J
JReducation
Guest
This is a beautiful statement, but I’m not seeing how this answers the question in the original post. Help me out a little. Thanks
- Status
M
maltmom
Guest
Picture please!!!You’re welcome. I’m going to start wearing a white mantilla so people can see the contrast.
Mantillas are very traditional.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
:takeoff:
C
choliks
Guest
I wish the relationship of Protestant influence and being utilitarian be expounded a bit more.
JReducation:
I also think that people tend to see only the visible fruits of a vocation to religious life. People identify the religious by what they do, but not how they live their lives, and not by who they really are. For example, some people only see the priestly ministry of a Dominican Friar, but they don’t realize that he is a brother and a scholar first and foremost. Just last week I asked the chaplain of our company, a Dominican, if it’s okay people call him brother even if he was a priest. He said it’s okay. He just thinks that it was just unusual for the laity to call him that. He was right. I don’t think any of my colleagues bothered to know how our chaplain lives his life, and who he ought to be as a Dominican. As long as he’s celebrating Mass for us, everything is just dandy.
I think I’m just rambling. Am I making any sense? LOL
That’s the way I see it too. IMO, clericalism fanned the flames. I think people started to compartmentalize the roles within the Church: vocation for males should always be towards the priesthood, and not for the religious life, since the sisters and nuns are into that anyway. Religious orders, like the Franciscans, gave up the calling to live the Gospel and be like St. Francis to the demand of ordaining priests. Unfortunately, as you implied in your previous posts, the ordained religious lost their identity because they were too far from who they ought to be (I attribute this reason to why in the novels written by one of the [Philippine] national heroes, Franciscans were painted negatively).
I also think that people tend to see only the visible fruits of a vocation to religious life. People identify the religious by what they do, but not how they live their lives, and not by who they really are. For example, some people only see the priestly ministry of a Dominican Friar, but they don’t realize that he is a brother and a scholar first and foremost. Just last week I asked the chaplain of our company, a Dominican, if it’s okay people call him brother even if he was a priest. He said it’s okay. He just thinks that it was just unusual for the laity to call him that. He was right. I don’t think any of my colleagues bothered to know how our chaplain lives his life, and who he ought to be as a Dominican. As long as he’s celebrating Mass for us, everything is just dandy.
I think I’m just rambling. Am I making any sense? LOL
O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
Brother,
Based on your comment “The consecrated life is about how you live. The priesthood is about how you serve. Two different things.” would it be accurate to say that the “function” of religious life is it’s “form”? That “form” and “function” for religious are one and the same?
Based on your comment “The consecrated life is about how you live. The priesthood is about how you serve. Two different things.” would it be accurate to say that the “function” of religious life is it’s “form”? That “form” and “function” for religious are one and the same?
E
edwest2
Guest
If you listen to Catholic radio, it is very clear. We have amnesia that covers a 40 year period. Put another way by a well-known Catholic: “If you want your children to remain Catholic, don’t send them to a Catholic school.”
The continuity of the Body of Christ in the West was broken. The Body of Christ was gradually poisoned. I personally know too many Catholics who will take their relationship with God so far and no more. I cannot judge them but I see the fruit of it: contraception in marriage, divorce, living together as couples and unmarried.
Their obligations to God are minimal and some choose not to go to Mass. Or listen when the Pope or anyone in authority tells them otherwise. They have swallowed the myth that their children are unreachable once they become adults and beyond their ability to correct or guide.
So, to return to your question: They don’t know and just as faith cometh by hearing, they often don’t care to know. Even though there are those who are trying to tell them. They have selective hearing at best and no ears to hear at worst.
Fortunately, there are some faithful communities scattered here and there. And some Catholics home school. But when I tell people all I listen to in my car is Catholic Radio, they look at me like some alien creature.
Pope Benedict recently made a call for “radical obedience.” He also mentioned Indifference. Too many just don’t make the effort. Or they have perceived grievances against the Church and hold that against Her.
If people like you don’t speak, many will not know you even exist.
Hope this helps,
Ed
O
odile53
Guest
Thank you for posting the lexicon, I’m bookmarking it, but had better wait till I’ve had another cup of coffee before studying it more closely.
If you DO ever post a picture of a white mantilla next to your faded grey habit, please do it in link form, and put a warning up about the contents of the link. I just replaced this keyboard, and don’t want to spew coffee all over it!
If you DO ever post a picture of a white mantilla next to your faded grey habit, please do it in link form, and put a warning up about the contents of the link. I just replaced this keyboard, and don’t want to spew coffee all over it!
C
clem456
Guest
Since I am a married guy, this is a powerful reminder to stay focused on the reality of who we are in God’s eyes. I’d like to bring more of this “religious life” into my marriagte. Sometimes spouses treat each other as tools for “the good life”, earning power, tha ability to provide for retirement, to bring prestige and honor, tools for sexual gratification. The idea of people existing in married life solely to glorify God is so countercultural…it takes a huge leap of trust to let go of the acquisition mentality, and accept that if we glorify God in our life, all the rest will be taken care of according to God’s will.…
It always blows my mind, because I want to ask people if they stay married because of what their spouse does or because of who their spouse is to them or your children or your parents.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
I like Henri Nouwen’s sermon along these lines:
youtube.com/watch?v=SFWfYpd0F18
henri nouwen being the beloved sermon 1 of 8
A
acarlson
Guest
Beautiful!
J
JReducation
Guest
I think that you have touched on something that’s very important. As the world becomes more conscious of production and profit, we contaminate our relationships with God and with others with the same way of thinking.
I look at religious life and see which communities are thriving and which are dying out. Go to any website of any community that tells you what they do for society, but don’t tell you that they live for Christ and then go count that community’s number of applicants per year. Maybe the community thinks it’s not operating for profit, but it is. From where I sit the sense of satisfaction when you count how many problems you resolved today and how many people you helped, that’s a profit minded approach to service. I don’t think that Christ kept a ledger of how many people he cured and how many sins he forgave.
Of course there is nothing wrong from the satisfaction that comes from doing a job well done and from helping someone. But that’s not our tradition as religious, as parents, as spouses or as priests.
The vocation of the wife is to be the Church, a spotless and loving wife to her spouse and a good mother to her children, in that order. The vocation of the husband is to be Christ. He does not submit his wife, just as Christ does not submit the Church. On the contrary. Christ gave the Holy Spirit to the Church so that she could grow, to help the seed become a rose. So too should the husband provide for his wife’s growth in every aspect of her life (except gaining weight). The relationship is about being someone for each other, not doing a bunch of things for each other.
The same is true of religious life. My vocation is to be another Christ to his people. Christ is the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. In today’s Gospel we hear the Holy Spirit reveal to us that Jesus is “Son”. Because I’m called to follow Jesus in the consecrated life, I’m called to be a son. If I’m your father’s son, then I’m your brother.
This is not a metaphor. This is reality. There is nothing more real than life in the Spirit, because it never ends.
When we look at people, we need to look at who they are, not what they do for us or what they do for society. The truth is that Jesus never went more than 50 miles away from Nazareth. There are no historical records of great accomplishments, monuments, political reforms, inventions or service organizations. Yet, he divided history into two parts, BC and AD. He divided the world into two hemispheres, East and West. His story has influenced the world more than that of any other human being, even Mohammed. There may be more Muslims than Christians, I think. But the contributions of the Christian people to world history is incomparable to any other. Some of the contributions have not been so good, but we can’t have all this and heaven too.
What makes Jesus the most powerful human being in history is who he is for people, believers and non believers alike, not what he does. For believers, he’s the Messiah. For non believers he’s a thorn in their side.
N
NeedImprovement
Guest
So much richness of our faith to be learned and absorbed in your posts Br. JR . I’m always grateful when I find a thread you’re contributing to and have time to start reading it . . . slowly. 
As many of us intimated to you on your birthday: You’re a blessing to us here at CAF.
I thought, as an aside, you might like to know one potential reason why I personally never seem to get invited to these conference dinners you mentioned - in light of what was posted earlier :
Once sister had blurted out , “If you want to make sure that you get a good theological answer, go to a priest” , I would’ve been tempted to reply, “Why yes, sister – well said ! And didn’t I do that just now in quoting three fine priests for you ? . . . Gregory the Great , Robert Bellarmine and Thomas Aquinas ?"
As many of us intimated to you on your birthday: You’re a blessing to us here at CAF.
I thought, as an aside, you might like to know one potential reason why I personally never seem to get invited to these conference dinners you mentioned - in light of what was posted earlier :
There are number of sad things here that deprived the faithful of a part of Catholic Tradition that has been with us since the time of Christ. It’s all rooted in pride, materialism and ignorance.
I remember sitting at a dinner table with a group at a conference. At the table was a sister. I won’t mention the congregation. In any case, as the conversation progressed, someone asked a theological question and I responded saying: “Gregory the Great said, Robert Bellarmine said this, Aquinas said that and so forth.” The sister turned to the others at the table and said, “If you want to make sure that you get a good theological answer, go to a priest.”
One of the lay people asked why, since the brother at the table is a doctor of theology. Her response was, “What’s a brother? He’s a no body in the Church.”
. . .
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
If I’d been in your shoes , I would’ve been tempted to make a preemtive move along these lines:
Once sister had blurted out , “If you want to make sure that you get a good theological answer, go to a priest” , I would’ve been tempted to reply, “Why yes, sister – well said ! And didn’t I do that just now in quoting three fine priests for you ? . . . Gregory the Great , Robert Bellarmine and Thomas Aquinas ?"
J
JReducation
Guest
That was good.So much richness of our faith to be learned and absorbed in your posts Br. JR . I’m always grateful when I find a thread you’re contributing to and have time to start reading it . . . slowly.
As many of us intimated to you on your birthday: You’re a blessing to us here at CAF.
I thought, as an aside, you might like to know one potential reason why I personally never seem to get invited to these conference dinners you mentioned - in light of what was posted earlier :
If I’d been in your shoes , I would’ve been tempted to make a preemtive move along these lines:
Once sister had blurted out , “If you want to make sure that you get a good theological answer, go to a priest” , I would’ve been tempted to reply, “Why yes, sister – well said ! And didn’t I do that just now in quoting three fine priests for you ? . . . Gregory the Great , Robert Bellarmine and Thomas Aquinas ?"
I have to put that in my little book of clever answers.
M
mfrances
Guest
My parish is a diocesan parish and we have a Friary with Fransican Brothers next to our church. Oddly enough there is no congregation of sisters around. Weird for NY I would think…
I teach Religious Ed, and just last week a 5th grade girl asked me, is there something in the church women can be? We had a long conversation about sisters and nuns… that there is an option for women… and I realized we have a real need to talk to the kids about vocations. These kids go to public school and don’t get much if any catechesis at home. I noticed they tend to think the clergy were intimidating, they looked scared when the Pastor visited our class one day.
This post made me think… I wonder if these kids know the difference between a Priest and a Brother.
I’m 28, grew up in Catholic School in the 90s and we all knew what a brother, sister, and priest is and most of us even for a brief time considered a vocation. We had a very positive view of clergy and religious. They were not teachers in our classrooms but a few were administrators who were always there and all of them (even the ones not working in the school) would visit classrooms, talk to us in the yard, and attend school events. The school is still run by Marist Brothers/Priests and Sisters of St. Joseph.
I teach Religious Ed, and just last week a 5th grade girl asked me, is there something in the church women can be? We had a long conversation about sisters and nuns… that there is an option for women… and I realized we have a real need to talk to the kids about vocations. These kids go to public school and don’t get much if any catechesis at home. I noticed they tend to think the clergy were intimidating, they looked scared when the Pastor visited our class one day.
This post made me think… I wonder if these kids know the difference between a Priest and a Brother.
I’m 28, grew up in Catholic School in the 90s and we all knew what a brother, sister, and priest is and most of us even for a brief time considered a vocation. We had a very positive view of clergy and religious. They were not teachers in our classrooms but a few were administrators who were always there and all of them (even the ones not working in the school) would visit classrooms, talk to us in the yard, and attend school events. The school is still run by Marist Brothers/Priests and Sisters of St. Joseph.
J
JReducation
Guest
I find this interesting in NY. NYC, Miami and Boston have the largest number of sisters and brothers in the country. The number of brothers is about 1 to 2 priests. That’s very high. The number of sisters in those dioceses is extremely high. They outnumber the priests.
In Miami, where I am, very few sisters teach. Most of our sisters work with the poor. Most Catholic school kids are middle class. Only one or two of these congregations are allowed to serve the needs of the middle class. They’re the only ones who teach. There are a few sisters that teach in our poorer schools. Total, I bet that’s about 20% of our sisters. Maybe that’s the same in NYC.
Many sisters communities abandoned schools that were originally schools for the immigrant poor and evolved into well established middle class communities. This was a mandate from the Holy See. The sisters were to return to the vision of the founder and serve the Church as the founder had intended it. People don’t always understand this. This is why we get so many posts on these forums about the lack of sisters in our Catholic schools.
It is true that there is a lower number of women entering religious life. However, it is also true that the majority of Catholics who post on internet forums are well enough to afford computers. Therefore, they do not qualify for the services offered by most religious communities. Most teaching communities were founded to teach only the materially poor.
In my own Franciscan family, the sis friars who left the Capuchin Franciscans to kick off the Franciscan renewal made two choices right from the start. 1) Never to take on parishes no matter how much they needed priests. Because Franciscans have priests, but are not a community of priests. Therefore, they do not belong in parishes. 2) Never to serve anyone who has an income above the poverty line or in any neighborhood where people are above the poverty line.
This process of renewal caught on like fire. Other groups of friars started to carve out smaller Franciscan communities that have returned to the 13th century vision of religious life. My own community is a product of this renewal movement. We do not serve in parishes. We ordain only as many men as we need to say mass for us, not for the diocese. Our priests live in anonymity. They are called Brother like everyone else. We do not live in friaries. We live in regular homes in poor neighborhoods. We don’t own those houses. We borrow or rent. We beg for our food from the local food pantry just like the rest of he poor. We have no medical insurance and no retirement insurance, just social security and medicare.
Like us, there are other communities that seem to have disappeared from the radar, but are still with us. They’re just not where the majority of Catholics can see them. They’re usually around non-Catholics and unchurched people. But that’s part of the Church’s tradition.
To understand religious tradition, one must understand the infancy narratives. Until the time of Jesus’ birth, kings were born in palaces and attended to by wet nurses. Christ the King is born in a stable, attended to by an anonymous mother from an anonymous town. He is born among the voiceless and the unseen members of society. The first to see him are the shepherds and then the Wise Men from the East. Neither of these made up the mainstream of society.
Then we proceed to the Baptism of the Lord, which concludes the Christmas season. What we see is John the Baptist, who looked like a mad man dressed in skins, proclaiming a baptism of repentance. What we don’t know is that John was a priest. John comes from a priestly line. Elizabeth and Zechariah both came from priestly lines. However, John is not the visible, elegant and dignified priest. He’s a commoner.
Nonetheless, Jesus must go to John to be baptized. Because in doing so, the mission of the OT priesthood is fulfilled. It is passed on to the Lamb of God. Christ, who has entered the world to be the sacrificial lamb, receives the priesthood from John. This is confirmed by the voice of the Father who speaking through the Holy Spirit calls him, “My beloved Son.”
We see God breaking into human history and establishing his priesthood and his Church not among the middle class of his time or among the influential people of his time. He enters the world through an insignificant young woman from a town that is not important to the Jews, Nazareth. Even her name was common, Miriam. His name is a common name, Yeshua. He is first known by the lowest of the working class, shepherds and by outsiders. Then he receives the priesthood from what to the eyes of the world is a common man, John the Baptist. He sacramentalizes it and hands it on to fishermen, tax collectors and other common and insignificant men.
The religious life finds its roots in the life of Christ. The life of Christ is played out among the common man, by a common man with a common mother in a common community of fishermen, tax collectors and other people whom most of us would not invite home to dinner.
There is the tradition of the religious life.
N
NeedImprovement
Guest
If it made you smile - mission accomplished. On the practical side, if you really do have to use it some time at a conference dinner , there’s every chance you’ll be dismissed before dessert gets served.That was good.
J
JReducation
Guest
I came upon this awesome site that describes the religious tradition in the Eastern and Western Catholic Churches. Religious Life Time Line
C
clem456
Guest
Upon further reflection, I’sn’t the reverse true also? Not only do we value others for their usefullness, we (I) have an intense need to be useful to others. We tend to value ourselves by how usefull and neecessary we are to others.
As a layperson in the Church, we would like our opinions and ideas to be considered relevant and necessary, and may consider it to be a rejection when they are not acted upon. We may feel insignificant and un-needed.
This is a source of friction in my marriage also, as my wife is a fully independent, confident, and trusting person who is not needy in the least. She is not concerned with amassing wealth, is not physically clingy, kind of the opposite of me (God does have a sense of humor). I have confused this with a lack of love in the past. It is hard to just let love be, and appreciate it for what it is, without us hammering it into shape.
This thread has become challenging for me. Thank you bro for starting it.
As a layperson in the Church, we would like our opinions and ideas to be considered relevant and necessary, and may consider it to be a rejection when they are not acted upon. We may feel insignificant and un-needed.
This is a source of friction in my marriage also, as my wife is a fully independent, confident, and trusting person who is not needy in the least. She is not concerned with amassing wealth, is not physically clingy, kind of the opposite of me (God does have a sense of humor). I have confused this with a lack of love in the past. It is hard to just let love be, and appreciate it for what it is, without us hammering it into shape.
This thread has become challenging for me. Thank you bro for starting it.
J
JReducation
Guest
It is extremely important for people to be validated. God actually points to this in Genesis. “It is not good for the man to be alone.”
This statement can apply to marriage or to any other communal relationship, be it in a religious community, in a job, on a committee, etc.
This is where the practice of evangelical poverty begins. We do not look at others for what they can produce for us or how they can benefit us. We actually detach from ourselves.
Instead, we look at what others need and freely give it to them. We are charitable toward the other.
The first thing that every living being needs is affirmation. Observe in the canticle of creation (Gen 1). Each day of creation ends with the same refrain: “And God saw that it was good.”
God creates through his Son and for his Son – detachment from self.
God affirms his creation – charity toward the other
We have it all inverted.
M
Mrs_Sally
Guest
I agree Clem. This is a very interesting thread. It has got me thinking of some things happening in my family in a different light.
G
GloriaMaria
Guest
I’ve been rolling around this paragraph in my mind for the last day or so. I’ve learned a lot from it alone, about the spirituality of Marriage, and I’m still pondering the idea of the “duties” of a wife and mother repackaged in a very spiritual way. How does the husband learn to be like Christ and apply it to his vocation? I think these questions apply well to this thread, but maybe not exactly in the context Brother started with. Should we start another thread? I think there are a few of us “married’s” who are chewing on the subject of utilitarianism.
C
clem456
Guest
I would participate in that.
- Status