Are Catholics becoming utilitarian Christians?

[JReducation]

It is also true that in the early 20th century, large numbers of people were recruited, vocation or not

This was also true of religious orders and religious congregations. This drives traditionalists crazy. The look at the very small numbers of religious and they panic. I understand the panic. If you’re not too knowledgeable of how religious communities began, how they should run, of the differences between what they became in the 20th century and what the founders had in mind, and of the fact that the Church of the early 20th century almost destroyed religious life by filling up convents and religious houses of men to the point of explosion, . . . . If you’re unaware or don’t understand the history, you’re going to get the impression that it’s all falling apart.

The truth is in the middle. Some communities are falling apart, because they made very poor choices in trying to reform themselves. Other communities are falling apart, because it’s their time to die out. They have fulfilled their mission in the Church’s history and they will be replaced by a new community. There are communities that are falling apart, because the hierarchy of the Church imposed things on them that were not part of their life and then told them to get rid of all that. The individuals felt very confused and at times very angry. Finally, some communities are not falling apart at all. They are returning to what they were in the very beginning, which is very small intimate families of men or women whom God called together for his purposes, not for the purposes of the laity.

It is this last part that radical traditionalists can’t accept. The religious life does not exist for the purposes of the laity. It exists to give witness to what God wants the laity to see, not what the laity wants to look at. There is a difference.

At times, God does want us to see struggle, pain, brokenness and even death. We see this all over the Gospels. Jesus says, “So that you know that the Son of Man has the power to forgive sins, I tell you to get up and walk.” The glory and mercy of God is often more dramatically revealed through brokenness. We watch human beings living the religious life, struggling with their own humanity and with their mission, rather than fall into despair, we should be in awe of that fact that God holds them up and keeps them in one piece. We should be in awe that despite human weakness, God can and does put Humpty Dumpty together again.

What we did in the 20th century was insane. Traddom thinks it was the best thing since sliced bread and is in mourning because it’s not there anymore. If I had a dollar for each time that I hear, “Seminaries and convents are empty,” I could solve world hunger. Maybe I should make that my policy. Unless you’re going to give me $1.00, I don’t want to hear that seminaries and convents are empty. Give me $1.00 and I’ll gladly listen to you moaning and I’ll even tell you why this is happening and why it’s not such a bad thing as you think.

It is true that some are empty because of dumb choices. But it’s also true that they were exploding because of dumb choices. A large number of those people did not belong in the priesthood or the religious life. I for one am glad that they have found happiness and hopefully they have found their faith someplace else. At the end of the day, it’s not about how many people are in a seminary or convent. It’s about being happy that you have found God.

 

[iloveangels]

This was also true of religious orders and religious congregations. This drives traditionalists crazy. The look at the very small numbers of religious and they panic. I understand the panic. If you’re not too knowledgeable of how religious communities began, how they should run, of the differences between what they became in the 20th century and what the founders had in mind, and of the fact that the Church of the early 20th century almost destroyed religious life by filling up convents and religious houses of men to the point of explosion, . . . . If you’re unaware or don’t understand the history, you’re going to get the impression that it’s all falling apart.

…clip…

It is true that some are empty because of dumb choices. But it’s also true that they were exploding because of dumb choices. A large number of those people did not belong in the priesthood or the religious life. I for one am glad that they have found happiness and hopefully they have found their faith someplace else. At the end of the day, it’s not about how many people are in a seminary or convent. It’s about being happy that you have found God.

This is correct. What we have now isn’t statistically as unusual for the Church as what we had in the 19th & 20th centuries, which was very strange number-wise. There were cultural situations in the US that caused what happened.

As an example, in the 18th-19th centuries many Catholic immigrants caused a need for inexpensive teachers, and many sisters were brought over from Europe to teach large numbers of immigrant & 1st generation American Catholic children because they would work for nothing more than their basic upkeep. That situation no longer exists.

Also it was quite difficult in that same time frame for Catholics to enter some business professions, so there was a pent-up supply of professional quality men, who entered the priesthood, rather than enter professional life. That has also changed now, as the prejudice against Catholics in the professional world is nearly gone now. There are many Catholic doctors, lawyers, judges, professors and businessmen now. Men who enter the priesthood now are much more likely to be well-suited to it, and want to do it for what it is, not for what it has to replace.

And of course, the same situation existed in spades for women, who had a choice: get married, become a sister or nun or be an old maid, living on low wages. Professional work for blue-collar daughters of Catholic immigrants didn’t exist, so if you were an ambitious or capable girl, or you just didn’t want to get married or didn’t meet the right man, the convent was a real possibility. This is not a good reason to become a sister or a nun, BTW.

Nor is entering a celibate situation just so you don’t have to explain to grandma that you can’t get married for whatever reason.

 

[JReducation]

And of course, the same situation existed in spades for women, who [snip] didn’t meet the right man, the convent was a real possibility. ** This is not a good reason to become a sister or a nun, BTW.**

Bold is mine.

Let’s not get carried away here.

I know some women who would make many men very happy if they became nuns.

 

[iloveangels]

Bold is mine.

Let’s not get carried away here.

I know some women who would make many men very happy if they became nuns.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Alright you two, knock it off!

 

[MJE]

This is all so illuminating.

 

[maltmom]

Bold is mine.

Let’s not get carried away here.

I know some women who would make many men very happy if they became nuns.

You are wrong for that!!! hmmmmmm I can think of a few men who need to find a cave and never come out of it.

:hug3:

 

[iloveangels]

You are wrong for that!!! hmmmmmm I can think of a few men who need to find a cave and never come out of it.

:hug3:

ROFLOL, I agree with you. Either that or marry a woman who can’t find a honey and so she tries the convent as a substitute for a honey. No point in wrecking two households. ROFLOL.

 

[iloveangels]

This is all so illuminating.

Because of all the factual information, or because we’re having fun setting a big bonfire on harmony between the sexes?

 

[MJE]

Because of all the factual information, or because we’re having fun setting a big bonfire on harmony between the sexes?

Both.

 

[JReducation]

You are wrong for that!!! hmmmmmm I can think of a few men who need to find a cave and never come out of it.

:hug3:

Sweetie, we cal them cells not caves. I happen to live in one and am very happy to never come out . . . trust me. I should have become a Carthusian. Just think about it, an entire life without ever knowing what’s going on in the greater Church or the rest of the world for that matter and the joy of not caring either. I have a good friend who is a Carthusian. The last time I visited him was when the sex abuse scandal broke out. He had no idea and had no interest in it either. His answer was so simple and yet so profound.

“I can do more from here than you guys will ever do on site.” He is right.

ROFLOL, I agree with you. Either that or marry a woman who can’t find a honey and so she tries the convent as a substitute for a honey. No point in wrecking two households. ROFLOL.

Listen, St. Maximilian’s parents did that. She died a Franciscan sister. He entered the Conventual Franciscans and later left. I’m not sure what happened to him.

This is all so illuminating.

You see? The Jesuits and the Dominicans are not the only luminous lights in the Church. We Franciscans can enlighten with charm and chuckles.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Sweetie, we cal them cells not caves. I happen to live in one and am very happy to never come out . . . trust me. I should have become a Carthusian. Just think about it, an entire life without ever knowing what’s going on in the greater Church or the rest of the world for that matter and the joy of not caring either. I have a good friend who is a Carthusian. The last time I visited him was when the sex abuse scandal broke out. He had no idea and had no interest in it either. His answer was so simple and yet so profound.

“I can do more from here than you guys will ever do on site.” He is right.

How do you manage to visit a Carthusian monastery?

 

[maltmom]

Sweetie, we cal them cells not caves. I happen to live in one and am very happy to never come out . . . trust me. I should have become a Carthusian. Just think about it, an entire life without ever knowing what’s going on in the greater Church or the rest of the world for that matter and the joy of not caring either. I have a good friend who is a Carthusian. The last time I visited him was when the sex abuse scandal broke out. He had no idea and had no interest in it either. His answer was so simple and yet so profound.

“I can do more from here than you guys will ever do on site.” He is right.

Listen, St. Maximilian’s parents did that. She died a Franciscan sister. He entered the Conventual Franciscans and later left. I’m not sure what happened to him.

You see? The Jesuits and the Dominicans are not the only luminous lights in the Church. We Franciscans can enlighten with charm and chuckles.

All kidding aside, yes, you could pray for the people of the world and study in a “cell”, but God obviously had other plans for you. You do enlighten us with charm, chuckles and most importantly, your knowledge. I can honestly say that I’ve learned so much from you. I’ve learned things that I probably never would have if God hadn’t place you right where you are. I’m also thankful for your wonderful sense of humor.

Now, back to the cell. Can you arrange for someone to be put in one for me?

 

[PrayRosary]

Br JR,

I read your Open Letter on your blog, and it really helped me in a specific problem that I have been praying about. Thanks:thumbsup:

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

We’re trying but we’re still not there yet. The problem is that we generally haven’t got the “being rather than doing” thing down yet. This attitude is very pervasive in modern life and hard to shake for many people, including Secular Franciscans. Sometimes you see it now, but often you don’t.

This “do things instead of be” attitude also gets confused with the instruction to care for the poor. Franciscans care for the poor because of who the poor are, not what they have or don’t have. It’s not our real aim, and it never has been, to be a social service agency or rid the world of poverty like just one more social program with a grand goal. That’s a modern ideal, but that’s not the point of the Franciscan life. We are not the ultimate social workers qua social workers. Rather, we see God in all created things, and goodness in all created things, because God is their creator. This extends to the personalities and troubles of human beings because God cares for each one of them, even the most miserable, sinful or poor. Every life is precious for itself, without qualifiers.

Mother Teresa’s charism is modeled on ours to some degree. She also took some rough criticism for seeing life this way. Some people thought that she should be overjoyed to take large donations of money, set up foundations to eradicate poverty and change her order to accommodate such schemes. She refused. That’s not the point and she knew it. She served the poor in the way that they needed to be served in that time and place. She helped them feel loved and valued as human beings because they are human beings and that’s the proper way to treat a human being–rich, poor or otherwise.

The reason we don’t spend much time catering to the rich is because they often don’t particularly want what Franciscans have to offer, even if they say they do. We don’t dislike them or refuse them; they are also creations of God. But there are other charisms like the Salesians, for example, that specialize in the sorts of ideas that they need to hear in order to grow and become more holy. Not everybody is a Franciscan.

What an absolutely fantastic post! Thanks

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Bold is mine.

Let’s not get carried away here.

I know some women who would make many men very happy if they became nuns.

 

[clem456]

I’d like to say thank you Brother and all who have contributed to this thread as it has been spiritually profitable in my family this past week. My wife and I and younger child especially, have grown closer as a result of my keeping some silence, of all things! Our exchanges had been strained and uncomfortable and forced for some time. Not stressing over what we are going to do next, but just being together and appreciating one another has brought some peace and real understanding. I am amazed.

 

[JReducation]

How do you manage to visit a Carthusian monastery?

I don’t know if all the charterhouses have the same rules. The one where my friend is, one has to be either a relative or a male religious to visit. No one is ever allowed to see them celebrate mass or pray. The idea that religious life is to be lived in public is very disturbing to them. It takes away from the anonymity. The religious should always be anonymous is their mindset. They’re wonderful men and women. They’re very funny and very sociable.

All kidding aside, yes, you could pray for the people of the world and study in a “cell”, but God obviously had other plans for you.

I’m just not worthy enough to be called to the Carthusian way of life. It is the most noble form of Christian life. For that reason, only few are chosen.

Now, back to the cell. Can you arrange for someone to be put in one for me?

What size did you have in mind?

Br JR,

I read your Open Letter on your blog, and it really helped me in a specific problem that I have been praying about. Thanks:thumbsup:

Oh great! I call the brothers on the carpet and someone else reaps the benefit.

They’re always being called on the carpet. It keeps my mind active. :yup:

In all honesty, they call each other on the carpet more than I do. They have a very strong sense of accountability and fraternity.

That’s actually good to hear that our life is helpful to someone else.

I’d like to say thank you Brother and all who have contributed to this thread as it has been spiritually profitable in my family this past week. My wife and I and younger child especially, have grown closer as a result of my keeping some silence, of all things! Our exchanges had been strained and uncomfortable and forced for some time. Not stressing over what we are going to do next, but just being together and appreciating one another has brought some peace and real understanding. I am amazed.

The Holy Spirit has very strange ways of working. As it says in my personal motto, “Deus eligit stultus.”

 

[clem456]

I’m having that concept reinforced more and more the longer I live.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

To JReducation,

During the 1950s and early 1960s, the United States was steeped in Christianity. There is no connection to Vatican II here. No misunderstanding, just ongoing comments here that amount to “Blame it on Bush!” er… uh… Vatican II.

Growing up in the late 1950s, it was all centered on God. Our daily lives were about politeness, friendship, respect, honoring our mother and father and sensitivity toward the other and great fun, and understanding tragedy and death as just part of life. Everything we saw or heard was beautiful in some way. No, it was not perfect, but we were taught self-respect, respect for others, respect towards the opposite sex, and to avoid the bad kids while being polite to them. Having gone to a Catholic school, we had Religion class and it was not uncommon to hear that someone wanted to be a priest or a nun.

I ate, slept and believed. Going to Church on Sunday and Holy Days of Obligation were a part of me. They weren’t just obligations. No, I’m not suggesting it was perfect but even our government was respectful toward Christianity. We received a Catholic magazine each month. Every Christmas, there was a beautiful editorial about the birth of Christ. I was surrounded by a number of very good Catholic and non-Catholic role models.

Then something happened in the late 1960s.

catholichistory.net/Events/LandOLakesStatement.htm

Very intelligent men and women abused our trust, our deeply established compassion, and violated our sensibilities.

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704586504574654282563939764.html

There are communities I drive to where I can still feel the Holy Spirit. I see the people living as people, not as slaves to a false “freedom.” Not as the opposite to the Christian Community and country I grew up in. I say this as a fact, and there’s good scholarship to back up my statements.

I remember watching TV not long ago and seeing a priest, arms outstretched, laying across the stone steps of a public building as a religious monument was being removed by court order.

I will never lose what it means to be a functional Catholic.

God bless,
Ed

I read that last article, it about made me sick. I really missed all of the Catholic Church’s problems through the 1960’s and 1970’s since my mother died in 1967 and so did our family’s connection to the Church. I knew only what secular society told me. I had a 10 year beginning, and my father was a good man, but the constant brainwashing of media meant that I took the bait hook, line, and sinker.

I’ve come out the other side now, but I weep for my faith.