Are Catholics "born again"?

[runandsew]

But they are men and it’s possible for them to error, since they are human. I would hope they never would but it’s always a possibility.

Yes they are human and can error, Look at Martin Luther, he was a man, and he erred in his interpretation of Saved by faith alone, something that had never been taught in the 1,500 years of the church before him. He left the church taking about 1/4 of the Christians of the world with him on this novel teaching. But the Church which was promised to be preserved and protected by the Holy Spirit in all truth, never swayed from the truth, then or now.

(Now there were other issues at the time of the reformation, the church was indeed very corrupt, but it was not in the teachings that it was corrupt, but in the actions of the leaders. The church should have been reformed from within, not from without.)

 

[djrakowski]

:yup: Yes he does!! And this guy really gets you going! Woohoo!! I’ve already yelled out “AMEN!” several times already!! I’ve downloaded all the audio mp3’s already and have them on my iPod already!! And thanks to djrakowski because I’ve never seen that website or heard of this Michael Voris person before. So thanks so much djrakowski!

You’re welcome! He’s intense, isn’t he? He’s really passionate about defending and explaining the faith.

Mr. Voris and St. Michael’s Media are fairly new to metro Detroit. Their television program, “The One True Faith,” has started taping their second season (and one of these days, I’m going to make it down to the studio to be present at one of the tapings). I found out about them a few months ago, and have TiVO’d every episode since then. It has become my second-favorite TV program behind EWTN’s “The Journey Home.”

CAF member lizaanne works with St. Michael’s Media, too. Now how cool is that?

 

[djrakowski]

(Now there were other issues at the time of the reformation, the church was indeed very corrupt, but it was not in the teachings that it was corrupt, but in the actions of the leaders. The church should have been reformed from within, not from without.)

:yup: Michael Voris addresses some of Martin Luther’s legitimate objections ande how the Church responded to them in his talk, The Reformation.

 

[dalcent]

**:dancing: ALLFORHIM,:dancing: **

dalcent:

Nonetheless, would ANY evangelical Christian care to state what he/she thinks the Catholic explanation of being born-again is. Personally I don’t think any of them know.

ALLFORHIM:

Hi, Could you please enlighten us or at least me. Im sure Ive seen it stated somewhere on the forums but I dont recall.

Thank you

To be blunt, your reply here is unbelievable. Here you are telling us we are not “born-again” and you don’t even know what Catholics teach about being “born-again”.

THIS IS A STAGGERING ADMISSION.

Are you just here to tell us you are right and you don’t even know what we believe.

That’s what the Catholic vs Fundamentalist dialogue comes down to? You’re preaching your position at us, in a thread you’ve maintained a high presence on throughout, and you don’t even “recall” our position, but you know you’ve heard it somewhere (in one ear out the other).

P.S. It’s good you’ve moved form the we/God thinks vocabulary to I think: it’s sounds a lot more intelligent.

Well we don’t consider your denomination/sects attempt at the biblical/Catholic doctrine of regeneration to be completely wrong. You are more than partially correct, but you aren’t fully correct.

Spend a little time learning. Don’t just be preachy preachy at us. Many people here are converts from the born-again/evangelical sects. They found their old beliefs were good but biblically and theologically lacking in fullness!

Here’s what you’ve been missing:-
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Repentance + Belief + Baptismal Profession + Baptism = Born-again the Catholic way

Catholic Answers - Are Catholics Born Again?

 

[MariaG]

There are no words anywhere in scripture that tell us scripture is the final authority. In fact we do find if there is a disagreement with your brother, we don’t search the scriptures for who is right, we “take it to the Church”.

This is an outstanding point! It bears backing with a scripture quote (I hope you don’t mind, MariaG!)

Matthew 18:15-17 (NIV) - “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”

Notice the incredulity with which Jesus addresses those who fail to listen “even to the church” - as if he couldn’t believe that anyone would fail to listen to the judgments of the church he was about to establish.

Again, excellent point, MariaG!

I don’t mind at all. I have been very pressed for time lately. I have been able to check in but my time is at a premium and did not have time to look up the scripture and post it myself.

I just know how much I love to read it for myself in scripture!

Thank you!

 

[Damascus]

Hi,
Which question so I can check it out?

Sorry, I actually worded it improperly, but check out post 94, if I missed the answer I apologize.

 

[Peterdiago]

Hello people interested in The One True Faith TV series and podcasts!

I’m the chap who actually puts them together from Michael’s TV shows - that is my British accent on the beginning and end of them. I volunteer for Michael.

Erm . . . that’s about it. If people would like to continue downloading them, please do! I aim to have the others done and up by the end of the weekend.

The URL for the podcasts is catholictelevision.org/podcast/

Like I say, please download them and listen to them. Any feedback sent to srafe@catholictelevision.org is greatly appreciated.

Also, if you wish to look around the main site at www.catholictelevision.org, you may find something else interesting.

Right, I return you now to your usual chatting and using my Podcasts! Yay - someone downloads them!!!

Regards,

Simon Rafe
~Webmaster, Saint Michael’s Media

PS. Ooops - I just noticed I stepped into the latest in a series of word-wars between the what are called the “Damned Papists” and those known as “Heretics”! Sorry, chaps and chapesses - Lizaanne (my wife) pointed me to half way through this thread and I responded without reading where it was going. My goof.

Okay, as one who is often called a “Wretched Mary Worshipping Papist” etc. I feel honour bound to point out the following (using the words of my illustrious leader, Voris);

“Everytime a Catholic leaves Confession he or she is born again!”

Are we born again? You bet your life we are! We are born again through Baptism, and through the Sacrament of Reconcilation. Every single time we get our soul scrubbed clean we are born again. We are perpetually a new creation in Christ.

Go I get an AMEN, brothers and sisters?

PPS. Yes, Mike is that intense - I have to work with him. This is my current day - I don’t get paid for it, because I’m an immigrant on a visa and I need to get the stuff filed, but this is what I do all day.

I GET TO TELL PEOPLE ABOUT GOD AND THE BEAUTIES OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH!

Hahaha! Sorry, I know I shouldn’t gloat, but nothing beats working for Jesus. The pay is lousy, but the perks are great.

 

[lizaanne]

CAF member lizaanne works with St. Michael’s Media, too. Now how cool is that?

Hi! Here I am! And I believe my dear husband (webmaster for SMM) will post here too if he hasn’t already (he’s downstairs on his own pc).

Thanks so much for the great comments! Yes - Michael is intense, but he is intensely passionate about getting souls to Heaven. We all are, and I’m glad it shows in the work we do there.

Ok - sorry to butt in.

~Liza

 

[djrakowski]

Right, I return you now to your usual chatting and using my Podcasts! Yay - someone downloads them!!!

Simon, if it were up to me, every episode of “The One True Faith” would be required viewing for every Catholic. Keep up the great work!

 

[Peterdiago]

Right, I shall then - I have more Podcasts to edit . . .

 

[Sixtus]

Okay, as one who is often called a “Wretched Mary Worshipping Papist” etc. I feel honour bound to point out the following (using the words of my illustrious leader, Voris);

“Everytime a Catholic leaves Confession he or she is born again!”

Are we born again? You bet your life we are! We are born again through Baptism, and through the Sacrament of Reconcilation. Every single time we get our soul scrubbed clean we are born again. We are perpetually a new creation in Christ.

AMEN AMEN AMEN

 

[Sixtus]

Okay, as one who is often called a “Wretched Mary Worshipping Papist” etc. I feel honour bound to point out the following (using the words of my illustrious leader, Voris);

“Everytime a Catholic leaves Confession he or she is born again!”

Are we born again? You bet your life we are! We are born again through Baptism, and through the Sacrament of Reconcilation. Every single time we get our soul scrubbed clean we are born again. We are perpetually a new creation in Christ.

AMEN AMEN AMEN

 

[AlegreFe]

Repentance + Belief + Baptismal Profession + Baptism = Born-again the Catholic way

True, so true! BUT only if you are an adult convert, a young adult or teen, or a “catholic” (little “c” and in quotes) who’s parents for some odd reason did not baptize you; well if that’s the case then you wouldn’t be Catholic. But I have heard of people who were just “catholic” in name only and just didn’t get their kid baptized for reasons of which one could be that they just haven’t gone to Mass in years.

But anyway, in the case of infant baptism, the baby has nothing to repent. But the child does have to have faithful and believing parents and godparents in order for the infant to be baptized. That is known in Scripture where the servant is cured due to the merchant’s faith.

3 He stretched out his hand, touched him,
and said, “I will do it. Be made clean.” His
leprosy was cleansed immediately.
4 Then Jesus said to him, “See that you tell
no one, but go show yourself to the priest,
and offer the gift that Moses prescribed;
that will be proof for them.”
5 When he entered Capernaum, a centurion
approached him and appealed to him,
6 saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home
paralyzed, suffering dreadfully.”
7 He said to him, “I will come and cure him.”
8 The centurion said in reply, "Lord, I am not
worthy to have you enter under my roof; only
say the word and my servant will be healed.
Since these verses were already there, I just thought I would “bold” them just to let you know that we “show ourselves to the Priest” when we confess our sins. And you know what the “gifts” are that “Moses prescribed.” We are to follow those commandments and if we don’t, we have to confess it to Jesus, who is “hidden under the flesh of the Priest” during Confession.
10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed
and said to those following him, "Amen, I
say to you, in no one in Israel have I found
such faith.
13 And Jesus said to the centurion, “You
may go; as you have believed, let it be done
for you.” And at that very hour (his) servant
was healed. Matt 8:3-8, 10, 13​

Circumcision in the OT prefigured Baptism in the NT. Jesus did NOT come to “abolish the law but to fulfill” the law. So the new “circumcision” in the New Testament is Baptism. And it is not merely symbolic. NONE of the Sacraments are merely symbolic. They actually infuse Sanctifying Grace into our Souls which give us a share in Divine Life! I think that’s fantastic!! WoW! I’m still amazed by that. Isn’t God Grand? Yes He is! He loves us so much that He gave us Jesus Christ and all the Grace from His Passion and Death pours into us if we open ourselves up to Him in the Sacraments.

When we are baptized with water “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” we actually have our sins cleansed (if adult) plus original sin is also wiped clean and not just covered as some protestants like to put it (they don’t even think that happens at baptism).

The other thing that happens at baptism is we receive the Holy Spirit. It is not a coincidence that water and Spirit appear together many times in Scripture. Have you ever thought of that before? I’m sure you’ve noticed it many times in Scripture.

Continued in next post…

 

[AlegreFe]

…Continued from previous post

Here are some passages where water and spirit appear together and some even refer to saving waters such as in baptism;

1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.
2 And the earth was void and empty, and darkness
was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of
God moved over the waters.
3 And God said: Be light made. And light was made. Gen 1:1-3

God made sure that the family knew that He was going to establish a covenant with them. This was known before the waters of the flood came and they were on their ark so they were saved on the waters and in the ark. The Catholic Church is also referred to as the Ark and also as Peter’s boat.

9 Behold I will establish my covenant with you,
and with your seed after you:
10 And with every living soul that is with you,
as well in all birds as in cattle and beasts of
the earth, that are come forth out of the ark,
and in all the beasts of the earth. Gen 6:9-10

1 And God remembered Noe, and all the
living creatures, and all the cattle which were
with him in the ark, and brought a wind
upon the earth, and the waters were
abated. Gen 8:1

The “wind” upon the earth can be seen as God’s Spirit and then of course there’s the water from the flood.

18 Because Christ also died once for our sins,
the just for the unjust: that he might offer us
to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh,
but enlivened in the spirit,
19 In which also coming he preached to those
spirits that were in prison:
20 Which had been some time incredulous,
when they waited for the patience of God in the
days of Noe, when the ark was a building:
wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were
saved by water.
21 Whereunto baptism being of the like
form, now saveth you also: not the
putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the
examination of a good conscience towards
God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
22 Who is on the right hand of God, swallowing
down death, that we might be made heirs of life
everlasting: being gone into heaven, the angels
and powers and virtues being made subject to
him. 1 Pet 3:18-22

21 “Whereunto baptism”… Baptism is said to be
of the like form with the water by which Noe was
saved, because the one was a figure of the other.

21 “Not the putting away”… As much as to say,
that baptism has not its efficacy, in order to
salvation, from its washing away any bodily filth
or dirt; but from its purging the conscience from
sin, when accompanied with suitable dispositions
in the party, to answer the interrogations made at
that time, with relation to faith, the renouncing of
Satan with all his works; and the obedience to
God’s commandments.

Cont…

 

[AlegreFe]

…Cont

More Scripture passages for saving waters and the Holy Spirit of God.

1 For I would not have you ignorant,
brethren, that our fathers were all
under the cloud, and all passed
through the sea.
This one from verses 1 and 2 should be a piece o’ cake. Cloud? Sea? :yup:
2 And all in Moses were baptized,
in the cloud, and in the sea:
3 And did all eat the same spiritual
food,
4 And all drank the same spiritual
drink; (and they drank of the
spiritual rock that followed them,
and the rock was Christ.)
5 Yet God was not pleased with most
of them, for they were struck down
in the desert.
6 These things happened as examples
for us, so that we might not desire evil
things, as they did. 1 Cor 10:1-6

2 “In Moses”… Under the conduct of Moses,
they received baptism in figure, by passing
under the cloud, and through the sea; and
they partook of the body and blood of Christ
in figure, by eating of the manna, (called
here a spiritual food because it was a figure
of the true bread which comes down from
heaven,) and drinking the water,
miraculously brought out of the rock, called
here a spiritual rock, because it was also
a figure of Christ.

So we think of Baptism being of “water” baptism. But that water is not only spiritual and infusing but you could also see it as symbolic of the water that came out of the side of Jesus. If you read the prayer in my siggy you will notice the part that says, “water from the side of Christ wash me.” So we are being washed by the water AND the blood that Jesus shed for us for the forgiveness of our sins. So Water, Blood and Spirit are all part of our Baptism.

We continue to receive his Blood and Spirit/Soul in Holy Communion along with His Body and Divinity. So when we go to Confession to confess our Sins to Jesus, we are in a way, “born again” as we are now wiped clean of our sins. There’s still the matter of temporal punishment due to my sins but that’s for another thread on purgatory.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

To be blunt, your reply here is unbelievable. Here you are telling us we are not “born-again” and you don’t even know what Catholics teach about being “born-again”.

THIS IS A STAGGERING ADMISSION.

Are you just here to tell us you are right and you don’t even know what we believe.

Hi, I NEVER EVER said catholics were not born again christians. Take a look at post #17. I stated what the bible says about it. I was being more general not specific to any denom.

P.S. It’s good you’ve moved form the we/God thinks vocabulary to I think: it’s sounds a lot more intelligent.

Thank you

Spend a little time learning. Don’t just be preachy preachy at us. Many people here are converts from the born-again/evangelical sects. They found their old beliefs were good but biblically and theologically lacking in fullness!

Sorry didnt mean to be preachy I thought I was just answering questions that were asked of me to prove.

Here’s what you’ve been missing:-
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Repentance + Belief + Baptismal Profession + Baptism = Born-again the Catholic way

Thank you

.

 

[AlegreFe]

…
Circumcision in the OT prefigured Baptism in the NT. Jesus did NOT come to “abolish the law but to fulfill” the law. So the new “circumcision” in the New Testament is Baptism.
…

As I was posting that post I was going to go back to put passages from Scripture to support that the prefigurement of Baptism in the old is indeed circumcision. I forgot to go back so I’m doing that now.

This supports infant baptism because the Jews were circumcised at 8 days old just as Jesus was when He was brought to the temple. And just as He was circumcised as an infant, He then needed to be Baptized to show that physical and outward circumcision was no longer how it was; it was now circumcision of the heart which is Baptism in the New Testament.
Old Testament;
16 Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and
be no longer stiff-necked. Dt 10:16

6 The Lord, your God, will circumcise
your hearts and the hearts of your
descendants, that you may love the Lord,
your God, with all your heart and all your
soul, and so may live. Dt 30:6

4 For the sake of the Lord, be
circumcised, remove the foreskins
of your hearts, O men of Judah and
citizens of Jerusalem; Lest my anger
break out like fire, and burn till none can
quench it, because of your evil deeds. Jer 4:4

New Testament;
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will
be saved; whoever does not believe will be
condemned. Mk 16:16

• believe - be baptized
• be baptize - observe the law
• observe the law - circumcision
• not believe - break the law
• break the law - become uncircumcised
• uncircumcised - not believe
• not believe - condemned

I put that list there so that you can compare these passages from Mark and Romans. That list is not doctrine, this just makes sense to me. If you can list them to make more sense be my guest. See if you can make it sound better. I’m not being facetious or sarcastic either, I’m serious. I don’t know if it’s confusing for you. Perhaps someone else can make some sense out of it to sound better for you. Now of course this is circumcision of the heart.
25 Circumcision, to be sure, has value
if you observe the law; but if you break
the law, your circumcision has become
uncircumcision.
26 Again, if an uncircumcised man keeps
the precepts of the law, will he not be
considered circumcised?
27 Indeed, those who are physically
uncircumcised but carry out the law will
pass judgment on you, with your written
law and circumcision, who break
the law.
28 One is not a Jew outwardly. True
circumcision is not outward, in the flesh.
29 Rather, one is a Jew inwardly, and
circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit,
not the letter; his praise is not from human
beings but from God. Rom 2:25-29

11 In him you were also circumcised with
a circumcision not administered by hand,
by stripping off the carnal body, with the
circumcision of Christ.
12 You were buried with him in baptism,
in which you were also raised with him
through faith in the power of God, who
raised him from the dead. Col 2:11-12

[[11] (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/colossians/colossians2.htm#foot5) A description of baptism (Col 2:12) in symbolic
terms of the Old Testament rite for entry into the
community. The false teachers may have demanded
physical circumcision of the Colossians.

 

[AlegreFe]

Hi, I NEVER EVER said catholics were not born again christians. Take a look at post #17. I stated what the bible says about it. I was being more general not specific to any denom.

The Catholic religion is not a denomination. Since it was the first one and still remains the only one True faith, it remains a whole and not part of something else that is not truth in the fullness.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Are you confusing infallibility with impeccability? That is often a common mistake. Just asking.

Infallibility - Immune from fallacy or liability to error in expounding matters of faith or morals by virtue of the promise made by Christ to the Church.

Impeccability - Having no flaws; perfect.

Maybe it’s a combination of both.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Sorry, I actually worded it improperly, but check out post 94, if I missed the answer I apologize.

Hi D,

I answered it in post 104.