Are Catholics "born again"?

[wcknight]

This is my question: How do you know? How would ever be able to see inside someone’s heart and know if they are “saved” - and let’s use your view of salvation… how would you know if they are born again?

I had a conversation with my former Pastor’s wife. She spoke of her parents… Catholic, who attended mass, read the Bible, prayed daily & led “good” lives. She said despite all of that, she knew they were not saved.

How did she know?

It seems that Evangelicals decidie who is saved & who isn’t. I just can’t figure out what they base it on? Because even the OP said he responded to the altar call several times before God chose him… how did he know that time it “stuck?” It is simply an emotional thing?

According to some protestants all Catholics are toast. It makes you wonder if some of these yahoos were even born the first time.

God knows who is saved, anyone who receives the Body and Blood of Jesus. That’s our insurance policy.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

This is my question: How do you know? How would ever be able to see inside someone’s heart and know if they are “saved” - and let’s use your view of salvation… how would you know if they are born again?

I had a conversation with my former Pastor’s wife. She spoke of her parents… Catholic, who attended mass, read the Bible, prayed daily & led “good” lives. She said despite all of that, she knew they were not saved.

How did she know?

It seems that Evangelicals decidie who is saved & who isn’t. I just can’t figure out what they base it on? Because even the OP said he responded to the altar call several times before God chose him… how did he know that time it “stuck?” It is simply an emotional thing?

Hi,
The point is we dont know. We can think maybe they are because of their fruits. But anyone can play pretend. I say, if you claim to be born again(by God’s definition)then you better display the fruit of the Spirit in Galations 5:22. Satan is just waiting for us to show any sign of weakness so he can tempt us and make us look like hypocrites. That is why it is important to put on the armor of God daily as it says in Ephesians 6:10-18:thumbsup:

 

[JohnWilliams]

It seems that Evangelicals decide who is saved & who isn’t. I just can’t figure out what they base it on?

Try not to lump Evangelicals into one group. And there is no shortage of error throughout the entire Christian Church. But I believe her’s is an egregious error.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Pretty simple verse. In context it would particularly seem to pertain to judging Jews.
blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom011.html#top

I think that some Evangelicals are so busy running up the hill with a pitchfork in one hand and a torch in the other looking for some “future” “man of sin”, or individual “Antichrist”, forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=118140 that they don’t realize that their fingers are pointed in perhaps the opposite direction than that which they should be.

Indeed they don’t seem to understand where the man of sin can be seated. That all being said I believe the presence of the Holy Spirit is alive and well and very strong among these churches/pastors/parishoners.

 

[JohnWilliams]

Because even the OP said he responded to the altar call several times before God chose him… how did he know that time it “stuck?” It is simply an emotional thing?

I indicated that I wasn’t ready, but didn’t know it, but should have. Not only was the moment that I was born again a very physical and emotional moment (and I am well familiar with the deceptive nature of emotions in these matters) but my life was transformed, but trouble wasn’t over.

A couple of weeks after this experience I went on my family’s annual trip out of town for Thanksgiving, to celebrate as we had for many years with a crowd that, in part, have not been Church goers for at least a generation of two. I slipped into the several year standard of partying/boozing while hunting and generally recreating in the country. For a week or so after returning home darkness continued to gather in my life, and I began to think thoughts that were worse than any I even had. I began to get desperate because I felt as though Satan Himself was trying to lay claim to me. In a moment of clarity I shouted out loud “Satan I can’t wait to see Jesus throw you in the lake of fire”. I was immediately released and have not been troubled since that day in 2003, and my path has been upward ever since.

This may sound a little outlandish to some, but within the last couple of weeks I read the book “The Bondage Breaker” by Neil T. Anderson. It is a real introduction into the spirit filled (both good and evil) world in which we live. If you want to get an idea as to what really saved Protestant Christians are about, outside of the misimpression you might have gotten from fallen TV preachers, this is a wonderful and inspiring book by a very Holy Spirit led Christian. It will also help you understand that the event that I related in my life is somewhat less than unique. amazon.com/Bondage-Breaker-Neil-T-Anderson/dp/0736902414

 

[lak611]

Hi,
The point is we dont know. We can think maybe they are because of their fruits. But anyone can play pretend. I say, if you claim to be born again(by God’s definition)then you better display the fruit of the Spirit in Galations 5:22. Satan is just waiting for us to show any sign of weakness so he can tempt us and make us look like hypocrites. That is why it is important to put on the armor of God daily as it says in Ephesians 6:10-18:thumbsup:

:clapping:
Yes, this is true for all of us: Catholic, Evangelical, Protestant! It is up to me to believe and grow in my faith, not to guess about whether or not somebody else is or isn’t saved.

 

[carol_marie]

Try not to lump Evangelicals into one group. And there is no shortage of error throughout the entire Christian Church.

You are correct - I apologize. I hate it when people start a sentence with “I’ve notice that almost all Catholics… (something bad goes here) !!!” I shouldn’t have done that with Evangelicals.

You mentioned no shortage of error though. How do you know what is truth and what is error? I mean, you personally? Everyone’s interpretation is different. Doesn’t it get confusing?

 

[JohnWilliams]

You are correct - I apologize. I hate it when people start a sentence with “I’ve notice that almost all Catholics… (something bad goes here) !!!” I shouldn’t have done that with Evangelicals.

You mentioned no shortage of error though. How do you know what is truth and what is error? I mean, you personally? Everyone’s interpretation is different. Doesn’t it get confusing?

If it isn’t truth it won’t hold up well to scripture. Last spring I doubt I could have defined the word doctrine, much less eschatology. Doctrine is a powerful thing. Often the Church allows it to trump truth.
Last spring I read a book regarding a linear historic Bible study of Dan/Rev eschatology and I found it very compelling. Many Pastors as defensive in their own doctrines as the can be have been invited to point out errors, but the study sound enough to where error has been elusive. Scripture is used to define scripture.

For 30 years the author has understood and written about the central role of Islam in eschatology but the Church couldn’t see it. It is a free book. One of the most fun things is does is teach you how to study scripture with a very disciplined approach. Try a chapter or two. It is a brick by brick empirical argument, and it’s free without even a login.

ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters1-9.pdf
ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters10-17.pdf

Since reading it I have gotten an increasing stinging in my heart for the 1.5 billion Muslims that are in antichrist. I am hopeful that even exposure to the internet will help show them enough content of the Quran and enough about their prophet to have them ask the kind of Questions that Walid Shoebat asked: shoebat.com/
Or the former Muslims at Muslims for Christ:
exmuslim.com/
Or M. Ali “Islam Reviewed” (free book by Nigerian raised Muslim now Nigerian Christian Evangelist)
ellisskolfield.com/pdf/IslamReviewed.pdf

Muslims will not be well served by any Church that apoligizes for their specifically antichrist religion. It is the opposite of Christianity.

 

[Eden]

What Protestants refer to as being “born again” is similar to the experience that Catholics call a “deeper conversion”. In Catholicism, we are “born again” in water and the Spirit (baptism).

 

[Mannyfit75]

I was suggesting that a days old infant might have difficulty with the first two.

So you don’t think it is wise to baptize children or infants? From my understanding, baptism does not have an age limit.

Jesus said in Matthew 18:2-5, “Truly, Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will NEVER enter the kingdom of heaven.”

or in Mark 10:14, “Let the children come to me, do NOT hinder them for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say I say to you, whoever does not received the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”

or in Mark 16:16: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with “He who does not believe will be condemned.” This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a “believer’s baptism.”

Believing in the Lord Jesus Christ isn’t always necessary since the devil and his demons believed in God and boy do they tremble.

Although Fundamentalists are the most recent critics of infant baptism, opposition to infant baptism is not a new phenomenon. In the Middle Ages, some groups developed that rejected infant baptism, e.g., the Waldenses and Catharists. Later, the Anabaptists (“re-baptizers”) echoed them, claiming that infants are incapable of being baptized validly. But the historic Christian Church has always held that Christ’s law applies to infants as well as adults, for Jesus said that no one can enter heaven unless he has been born again of water and the Holy Spirit (John 3:5). His words can be taken to apply to anyone capable of belonging to his kingdom. He asserted such even for children: “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 19:14).

More detail is given in Luke’s account of this event, which reads: “Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’” (Luke 18:15–16).

Now Fundamentalists say this event does not apply to young children or infants since it implies the children to which Christ was referring were able to approach him on their own. (Older translations have, “Suffer the little children to come unto me,” which seems to suggest they could do so under their own power.) Fundamentalists conclude the passage refers only to children old enough to walk, and, presumably, capable of sinning. But the text in Luke 18:15 says, “Now they were bringing even infants to him” (Greek, Prosepheron de auto kai ta brepha). The Greek word brepha means “infants”—children who are quite unable to approach Christ on their own and who could not possibly make a conscious
decision to “accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior.” And that is precisely the problem. Fundamentalists refuse to permit the baptism of infants and young children, because they are not yet capable of making such a conscious act. But notice what Jesus said: “to such as these [referring to the infants and children who had been brought to him by their mothers] belongs the kingdom of heaven.” The Lord did not require them to make a conscious decision. He says that they are precisely the kind of people who can come to him and receive the kingdom. So on what basis, Fundamentalists should be asked, can infants and young children be excluded from the sacrament of baptism? If Jesus said “let them come unto me,” who are we to say “no,” and withhold baptism from them?

 

[ricko]

I was suggesting that a days old infant might have difficulty with the first two.

Believe, Repent, be Baptized

You are correct, but not for the reason that you think. It is not necessary that infants repent as they have committed no personal sin. It is also not necessary for them to believe as the purpose of baptism is to wash away all sin and make them a child of God. Belief would be required of an adult but not an infant. The grace of baptism is a free gift and requires no action on the part of the infant.

 

[MariaG]

What Protestants refer to as being “born again” is similar to the experience that Catholics call a “deeper conversion”. In Catholicism, we are “born again” in water and the Spirit (baptism).

Truly, we could argue who is right about “when” we are born again. The Catholic definition is firmly rooted in scripture as I know non-Catholics believe theirs is also.

But here is the point. Catholics do not believe that a baby can be baptized, grow up, not follow Christ and be saved.

We do not believe a priest is just “sprinkling water”. We believe through these obedient actions, God chooses to bestow saving Grace.

We do not believe God denies this saving Grace to children. (Lots to get into here, probably infant baptism is it’s own thread)

We believe that an infant, as they grow, need to live and grow in the grace that they were given. Salvation can be lost.

And Pope Benedict as well as John Paul have both stressed that being baptized and going to Mass is not enough. The Catholic Church teaches that we MUST have a deeper conversion. It is possible to do the right things for the wrong reasons.

And when it comes to definitions, as Eden said, Catholics would call the Evangelical “born again”, a deeper conversion.

So I would say I was a born again Catholic (see my signature) who has had a deeper conversion and is working out my salvation through fear and trembling as Paul says

God Bless,
Maria

 

[lak611]

And Pope Benedict as well as John Paul have both stressed that being baptized and going to Mass is not enough. The Catholic Church teaches that we MUST have a deeper conversion. It is possible to do the right things for the wrong reasons.

And when it comes to definitions, as Eden said, Catholics would call the Evangelical “born again”, a deeper conversion.

So I would say I was a born again Catholic (see my signature) who has had a deeper conversion and is working out my salvation through fear and trembling as Paul says

I was baptized as an infant, did all the right Catholic “things” as a child, went to Catholic CCD, high school and even Catholic college, but never “did the right thing for the right reason”. It wasn’t until I was an adult and had not gone to any church for 5 years due to falling away and somebody gave me a Bible that I read that I finally understood and actually repented (first directly to God, then to my priest) and asked Jesus to come into my heart and change me. He did! Since then, I have understood the personal relationship with Jesus, studied God’s Word, and become involved in my parish (in adult education and Bible studies and volunteer work). I also have made several retreats, which have helped me grow in my faith.

 

[AlegreFe]

Do Catholics consider themselves to be born again? If so when or how are they?

Yes I was born again when I was Baptized into the Catholic Church and became a child of God and no longer a child of Adam. My original sin was wiped clean. And not just by the water being poured over me. The Sacrament of Baptism is a channel in which the Grace that comes from Christ’s Passion flow and infuse into my soul. There is an indelible mark that is put on my soul at Baptism.

JohnWilliams:

When they commit a “mortal sin” do they then “die” and aren’t born again until a Priest says they are?

Yes. When we commit a mortal sin we are cut off from God. But only if it is a mortal sin. If we are cut off from God, you could say that we “die” until we confess that sin and receive absolution from a Catholic Priest in the Sacrament of Confession. The Sacrament of Confession has been compared to the Prodigal Son story. When I confess my sins God comes to me in total happiness and the Angels and the Saints rejoice in Heaven.

21 His son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned
against heaven and against you; I no longer
deserve to be called your son.’
22 But his father ordered his servants, ‘Quickly
bring the finest robe and put it on him; put a ring
on his finger and sandals on his feet.
23 Take the fattened calf and slaughter it. Then
let us celebrate with a feast,
24 because this son of mine was dead, and has
come to life again; he was lost, and has been
found.’ Then the celebration began.

32 But now we must celebrate and rejoice,
because your brother was dead and has come
to life again; he was lost and has been found.’"
Luke 15:21-24, 32

 

[AlegreFe]

To be born again, one must repent, believe and be baptized.

This is only if you haven’t been baptized as an infant; or if you are an adult convert to the Catholic Faith and have never been baptized in any Christian church. Otherwise we are baptized as infants and the Faith of our parents is taken by Christ. That can and does happen in Scripture. Not exactly as in baptism but in a healing and forgiveness from Jesus to the servant of the merchant. We do not know of a faith or repentance of the servant but his master had the faith for him and therefore the servant was forgiven and healed. Btw, that is also what we say in Mass right before we are to receive Jesus. The saying I have here is what we say in Mass today but long ago and in the Latin it is more like in Scripture.

What we say in Mass;
*“Lord, I am not worthy to receive you,
but only say the word and I shall be healed.” *

Latin;
Domine, non sum dignus, ut intres sub tectum meum:
sed tantum dic verbo, et sanábitur ánima mea.

Translation;
Lord, I am not worthy that Thou shouldst enter
under my roof; say but the word, and my soul
shall be healed.

5 When he entered Capernaum, a centurion
approached him and appealed to him,
6 saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home
paralyzed, suffering dreadfully.”
7 He said to him, “I will come and cure him.”
8 The centurion said in reply, "Lord, I am not
worthy to have you enter under my
roof; only say the word and my servant
will be healed.

13 And Jesus said to the centurion, “You may
go; as you have believed, let it be done for you.”
And at that very hour (his) servant was healed.
Matt 8:5-8, 13

 

[AlegreFe]

The priest does not say the person is born again after they repent of mortal sin. You are born again only once during baptism.

In a sense, this is not true. The priest does not actually say those words in Confession, but one is certainly “born again” in a sense because if one commits a mortal sin, they “die” to Christ and when they repent and are forgiven in the Sacrament of Confession then they are “born again.” It’s not in the same way as in Baptism but one is certainly alive again because if you repent you are again reconciled to God.

If you read about the Prodigal son in Luke you will see how the father says that his son is alive again because his son came back home and repented.

32 But now we must celebrate and rejoice,
because your brother was dead and has come
to life again; he was lost and has been found.’"
Luke 15:32

 

[AlegreFe]

It is my impression that if a Catholic commits a “mortal sin” they are then “out”. Out of God’s grace. Died in Christ.

Correct.

JohnWilliams:

So why wouldn’t they then need to be born again?

But there is a need to be “born again.” It’s just not in the same way as in Baptism. When I was baptized, God left an indelible mark on my soul. That mark is not repeated in the Sacrament of Confession. But I am “alive in Christ” again. So in a sense you could say that I was “born again” after Confession.

 

[AlegreFe]

JohnWilliams:

Perhaps I misunderstood, but I got the impression that when a person (generally a fairly new-born infant in the Catholic faith if I am not mistaken), is baptized they are born again.

No you have not misunderstood. You are correct.

 

[AlegreFe]

Hi,
I believe that if any catholic walks with Christ like John described then they are born again (whether or not they call it that) and will be going to heaven as Jesus promised us. I know many catholics who call themselves born again(not because of infant baptism)but because they were ready, willing and able to give their whole lives over to Christ. They stayed in the CC. I, an evangelical born again christian(Thanks to God)belive there are catholics who are saved the way we/God views salvation.Salvation is available to all(not just members of the CC)but only a few accept the gift. On the flip side I believe there are many catholics and protestants and dare I say evangelicals that are not saved. If we were able to know who was truly saved in God’s eyes and going to heaven, I think it would be a much smaller number then we think.
Just my:twocents:

No one knows if we are actually saved. I cannot judge anyone, not even myself as to whether or not I am “saved.” We have to work out our salvation. Paul didn’t even have that assurance as you think you have.

12 It is not that I have already taken hold of it
or have already attained perfect maturity, but
I continue my pursuit in hope that I may
possess it, since I have indeed been taken
possession of by Christ (Jesus).
13 Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself
to have taken possession. Just one thing:
forgetting what lies behind but straining forward
to what lies ahead,
14 I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize
of God’s upward calling, in Christ Jesus.
Phil 3:12-14

We Catholics go by the theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Love. We have Faith in Christ; in fact we trust in Christ’s Faith for us. We follow God’s command to Love Him and to Love our neighbor as ourselves; in short, we do good works in faith for Jesus Christ.
With those (Faith & Love) being done we can have Hope (as in Phil 3) that we will get to Heaven and that Jesus will call us by name when that time comes. Of course I call on Him now so I want Christ to call on my name now, but especially at the hour of my death; as we say in the Anima Christi prayer.

 

[AlegreFe]

I was baptized as an infant, did all the right Catholic “things” as a child, went to Catholic CCD, high school and even Catholic college, but never “did the right thing for the right reason”. It wasn’t until I was an adult and had not gone to any church for 5 years due to falling away and somebody gave me a Bible that I read that I finally understood and actually repented (first directly to God, then to my priest)

:clapping: Isn’t it great?! The same goes for me. I went to Catholic schools the whole way. Except no one gave me a bible. I had to go out and buy one. Oh wait, my mom gave me a bible about 5 or 6 years ago (can’t remember when) but I never read it back when she gave it to me. But I still bought my own bible and now I have several different versions with the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible being my favorite.

 

[dalcent]

there are catholics who are saved the way we/God views salvation.

This is such an immodest statement saying “we/God view…”. It’s compounded by the fact that the detailed scriptural explanations published by Catholic apologists should make you pause and at least acknowledge there are other sincere explanations of how one is born-again.

Let’s face it. The ‘pentient’s prayer’ of born-again Christianity is entirely absent from Scripture (although found in every Jack Chick tract) and it’s absence should at least make you cautious against your “we and God” certitude!