A
- Status
gotta go.
J
JCPeacekeeper
Guest
Plenty of things happen to you everyday that are not in the Bible! I was speaking of religious tradition, doctrine and dogmas. Not everyday life. Not all teaching are anti-biblical but if even one is not found or does in fact go against the bible then you have to ask yourself why. Paul rebukes the Judaizers in Galatians for adding one thing to salvation, circumcision.
E
East_Anglican
Guest
As The Bible says that we are born again of The Word and Baptism is a sacrement of The Word, one can be born again through baptism. If a childs parents are within the covenant of grace, then athat child is an heir to the covenant of grace. As the child is an hier of the covenant and an hier to all the rights and blessings therein, it is quite right for the child to be given the rite of baptism to confirm the spiritual reality. We are buried with him in baptism and risen to a new life in him. (Born Again)
As Christ is The Word made flesh, by turning from our sins and turning to him. He regenerates us by The Holy Spirit and we are born again.
I believe both are correct.
Also, if a fellow Protestant can find a scripture refferance to ‘the sinners prayer’ it would be much appreciated. (I’m being facetious.)
As Christ is The Word made flesh, by turning from our sins and turning to him. He regenerates us by The Holy Spirit and we are born again.
I believe both are correct.
Also, if a fellow Protestant can find a scripture refferance to ‘the sinners prayer’ it would be much appreciated. (I’m being facetious.)
D
dalcent
Guest
I think the plain truth is that some evangelical Protestants have been taught that John 3:3 refers to “asking Jesus into their heart with a penitents/sinner’s prayer” and they’ve had this drummed into them over so many years that:-
no biblical/historical/theological argument against this is ever go to sound right to them.
After all, it’s the ‘faith once delivered’ to them, and the biblical model is ‘another gospel’ to them. That’s their perspective and its very ingrained.
Oh, the ‘authority of evangelical theology’.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
I think the plain truth is that some evangelical Protestants have been taught that John 3:3 refers to “asking Jesus into their heart with a penitents/sinner’s prayer” and they’ve had this drummed into them over so many years that:-
no biblical/historical/theological argument against this is ever go to sound right to them.
After all, it’s the ‘faith once delivered’ to them, and the biblical model is ‘another gospel’ to them. That’s their perspective and its very ingrained.
Hi,Oh, the ‘authority of evangelical theology’.
Well, actually it would be on the authority of Jesus Christ:thumbsup:As far as the sinners’s prayer. They/we/me would more likely get that idea from the Book of Romans.
10:8
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:
10:9
**That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. **10:10
**For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. **10:11
As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”
10:12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile–the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
10:13
for, “**Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” **
The verses I bolded all mention using your mouth or calling or confessing. I guess evangelicals calls it a prayer because that is how we talk to God.
D
dalcent
Guest
PROCLAIMING ‘JESUS IS LORD’ IS CERTAINLY NOT 'THE SINNER’S PRAYER.'Book of Romans.
10:8
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:
10:9
**That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. **10:10
**For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. **10:11
As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”
10:12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile–the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
10:13
for, “**Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” **
There is no mention of any ‘born-again’ prayer in your examples. All the above verses are perfectly compatible with the overall Catholic model of salvation: Baptism with a public profession/confession of faith with belief in your heart.
With all due respect, if anyone is struggling with a spiritual blindness here it’s you. Please explain why you don’t think the above verses aren’t compatible with the Catholic view that one is reborn with Repentance + Belief + Baptismal Profession + Baptism = Born-again
Please explain the following. How can Acts 2:38 and 22:16 be interpreted ANY way other than that baptism itself (with faith) washes away SIN.
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’
Repentance + Belief + Baptismal Profession + Baptism = Born-again
What are you finding so hard to understand? When we ask for evidence of a ‘born-again prayer’ in Scripture we aren’t after a verse about confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord (you must be able to see we do that, especially as we are baptised).
Consider the story of the Ethiopian Eunuch: Acts 8:35-39,
Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being BAPTIZED?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.
Why does the bible not mention Philip leading the Eunuch in a ‘sinner’s prayer’. The answer is because it is not the biblical model. The bible way inextricably ties together belief/profession with baptism. It’s so simple but it goes against your evangelical traditions of men.
M
MariaG
Guest
The problem I have with your interpretation of Scripture is that no one held that it was NOT through Baptism that one was born again until the anabaptists came alone (1600’s?).Someone who does not have the Holy Spirit in them cannot understand the spiritual truths of the bible.
All of the ECF interpret “born again” and relate and expound it with baptism.
Saying that baptism is not where God gives us the gift of grace is a new teaching that the apostles and the ECF never taught.
I seem to be saying this alot lately, but Catholics can point to scripture for our interpretation. You use scripture for yours. So who is right? We both claim to be led by the Holy Spirit, but one of us is wrong.
One way to find out is to search the writings of the ECF. Here is a link to several in CA library Born again in Baptism
Irenaeus
“‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’” (*Fragment *34 [A.D. 190]).
We are born again through Baptism. This has ever been the teaching of the Apostles, recorded in Scripture and faithfully interpreted by His followers.
It is a modern interpretation that denies one is born again in Baptism. It is a false teaching that has come along that scripture warns us about.
If you disagree with this, and believe that the Early Church taught as you believe, please, show me the writings that prove the CAtholic Church wrong. Otherwise I will continue to believe what the Holy spirit, scripture and the ECF tell me and reject the false teachings that came along holds that man is not born again in baptism.
Your sister in Christ,
Maria
ps, this does not mean a person cannot have a very real renewal or “find” Christ for the first time as an adult. I had a “born again experience” as an adult. But to say that the experience itself was when I was “born again” contradicts the interpretation of 1600 years of followers of Christ. Again, if you can show me where the early followers of Christ wrote contrary to the belief of baptism being where God gave us the grace to be born again, please, show me. Otherwise you are basing your belief not on scripture as you believe, but on the interpretation of Scripture passed on to you from one who taught contrary to the apostles.
Scripture can be wrongly interpreted. We both say we use scripture for our interpretations. Find the ECF who agree with yours otherwise you are following those who came along.
M
MariaG
Guest
Respectfully, could you expand on these quotes from the Catechism and show more directly how they contradict scripture?
God Bless,
Maria
P
Pug
Guest
Yes. It is required to be so to go to heaven. In Catholic thinking, the birth we get by being a descendant of Adam is not enough. You need to be born anew, to become an adopted son, to receive the Holy Spirit, expressions like these. This new birth is a spiritual reality, not a physical rebirth, and you end up a new creature in Christ.
Most commonly, a Catholic will be born again at their baptism (in/with water, but you receive the Holy Spirit at that time, not really water). It is possible to go to heaven without having the water officially happen, but the Holy Spirit/new birth part is essential.
There is no “third” birth. You can’t be “born again” twice. It only happens once. However, you can reject life, and need to have God give you the grace to get back in line, to reconnect. You can’t reconnect yourself. It requires an act of grace. Catholics in need typically reconnect with the life of grace at the sacrament of reconciliation, but it can happen prior to that.
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
Peacekeeper,
Unless you can show me a passage that the Bible is the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth in the Scripture then I’ll go with the Bible alone doctrine.
So far I am not convince by your testimony.
In the Bible, the Church is the way because in 1 Timothy 3:15, “If I delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the **church **of the Living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”
And the Church is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. How do we know the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ? Let’s look in Acts. Before Paul converted to Christianity, he persecuted the Early Church in Palestine, and Jesus said that Saul persecuted Him.
Acts 9:3-7. "Now as he journeyed he approached Damacus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed about him. And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him. “Saul, Saul, why are you persecute me?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting; but rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.”
Second, in the Council of Jerusalem (Acts), the Apostles, and the elders of the Church concluded that circumcision is not neccessary for the Gentile, and they should abstain from the pollutions of idols and from unchastity and from what is strangled and from blood. It was the first Council of Jersulem that used the testimony of Peter’s. Had they use Scripture as the authority, the Gentile would be require to have circumcision.
The Bible is good for reading, proof, and reference, but it is not the sole authority in all matters. The Bible does not support Sola Scriptura. It is Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Scripture. Jesus left One Church on Earth, and it is the Catholic Church. Just as I stated earlier, St. Ignatius of Antioch, “where there is Jesus Christ, there is the Catholic Church.” I already posted St. Ignatius but you hardly give him any credit.
However, I think I’ll take St. Ignatius testimony over an Ex-Catholic. St. Ignatius was taught by St. John the Apostle, and ordained bishop by St. Peter. An Ex-Catholic is just a lost sheep that need to come home to the Catholic Church.
Unless you can show me a passage that the Bible is the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth in the Scripture then I’ll go with the Bible alone doctrine.
So far I am not convince by your testimony.
In the Bible, the Church is the way because in 1 Timothy 3:15, “If I delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the **church **of the Living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”
And the Church is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. How do we know the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ? Let’s look in Acts. Before Paul converted to Christianity, he persecuted the Early Church in Palestine, and Jesus said that Saul persecuted Him.
Acts 9:3-7. "Now as he journeyed he approached Damacus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed about him. And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him. “Saul, Saul, why are you persecute me?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting; but rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.”
Second, in the Council of Jerusalem (Acts), the Apostles, and the elders of the Church concluded that circumcision is not neccessary for the Gentile, and they should abstain from the pollutions of idols and from unchastity and from what is strangled and from blood. It was the first Council of Jersulem that used the testimony of Peter’s. Had they use Scripture as the authority, the Gentile would be require to have circumcision.
The Bible is good for reading, proof, and reference, but it is not the sole authority in all matters. The Bible does not support Sola Scriptura. It is Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Scripture. Jesus left One Church on Earth, and it is the Catholic Church. Just as I stated earlier, St. Ignatius of Antioch, “where there is Jesus Christ, there is the Catholic Church.” I already posted St. Ignatius but you hardly give him any credit.
However, I think I’ll take St. Ignatius testimony over an Ex-Catholic. St. Ignatius was taught by St. John the Apostle, and ordained bishop by St. Peter. An Ex-Catholic is just a lost sheep that need to come home to the Catholic Church.
V
valient_Lucy
Guest
I was a Protestant, and spent my teenage years in Evangelical Churches. I read the New Testament, and the Holy Spirit opened the word of God to me and brought me home to the Catholic Church.
M
mrs_abbott
Guest
I don’t know about the rest of the Catholics but I believe you can be “born again”. If you have a period of “spiritual dryness” or even a lapse from God entirely, you can come back to Christ and have a greater appreciation for Him and what He’s done for you and in turn, have a deeper love for Him.
As far as the second half of that question, I believe you are forgiven when are sincerely sorry, no matter what the sin is. Confessing is a Catholic sacrament to attain graces from that forgiveness.
E
ecp007
Guest
Not really … Clearly God knows who is saved, but you can receive the Body and Blood of Jesus, with an unclear conscience and be comitting a mortal sin doing so.
T
Tiisetso
Guest
How can one ask such a question? I’m a Catholic in South Africa, on this side of the world people don’t belive that Catholics are born agains. A Catholic church is a first church of this planet. So I belive that each and every word concerning the religion somehow has connection to the church of God(Catholic), so the first people to become the born again were the catholics. In simple terms, the answer is YES. Catholics are born agains. Protestants misinterpret the word and say that if a preacher say to you that if you accept Jesus in your life you are a born again. You only become a born again if only you’ve been baptised.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi,
I get bible verses on my homepage and this is what was there:
1 Peter 1:13-25
1:13
Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.
1:14
As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.
1:15
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
1:16
for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.
1:18
For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers,
1:19
but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
1:21
**Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
1:22
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.
1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. **
1:24
For, “All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall,
1:25
but the word of the Lord stands forever.”
1:25
And this is the word that was preached to you.
If anyone believes this truth they are born again just like Scripture says. IMHO
I get bible verses on my homepage and this is what was there:
1 Peter 1:13-25
1:13
Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.
1:14
As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.
1:15
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
1:16
for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.
1:18
For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers,
1:19
but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
1:21
**Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
1:22
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.
1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. **
1:24
For, “All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall,
1:25
but the word of the Lord stands forever.”
1:25
And this is the word that was preached to you.
If anyone believes this truth they are born again just like Scripture says.
IMHO
T
tequilamac
Guest
Have you ever thought of surprising God? After all if He knows who will be “in” and who will be “out” perhaps you could surprise him by singing a new song unto the Lord instead of simply regurgitating the same old same old He predicted you would sing.
M
MariaG
Guest
Hi,
I get bible verses on my homepage and this is what was there:
1 Peter 1:13-25
1:13
Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.
1:14
As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.
1:15
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
1:16
for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.
1:18
For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers,
1:19
but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
1:21
**Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. **
1:22
**Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. **
1:23
**For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. **
1:24
For, “All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall,
1:25
but the word of the Lord stands forever.”
1:25
And this is the word that was preached to you.
If anyone believes this truth they are born again just like Scripture says.
Hi Allforhim,And where is you interpretation of Scripture found in the writings of the early Church?
We can post just as much scripture showing you where we interpret baptism to be when one is born again.
But we can also show the writings of the Early Church (before 300 ad) where the Early Christians also taught as we do. Where is your interpretation of Scripture before the 1600’s in Christian writings?
Your sister in Christ,
Maria
M
mrs_abbott
Guest
The ones you bolded support the “born again” argument. John 3 where Jesus is conversing with Nicodemus also supports that.Hi,
I get bible verses on my homepage and this is what was there:
1 Peter 1:13-25
1:13
Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.
1:14
As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.
1:15
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
1:16
for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.
1:18
For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers,
1:19
but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
1:21
**Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
1:22
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.
1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. **
1:24
For, “All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall,
1:25
but the word of the Lord stands forever.”
1:25
And this is the word that was preached to you.
If anyone believes this truth they are born again just like Scripture says.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi,The ones you bolded support the “born again” argument. John 3 where Jesus is conversing with Nicodemus also supports that.
Exactly:thumbsup:
- Status