Are Catholics "born again"?

[jim1130]

"jim1130:

Baptism is for both children and adults and the inclusiuon is for babies, too. Included childnre in Lydia’s household.
So, Jesus excluded babies under the New Covenent (from the Kingdom of heaven) although the infants/babies were included in the Old Covenant? If this is true than the New covenent is stricter than the Old Covenant.

Honestly, I dont know He never mentions babies. But, He does mention one has to believe, repent. The logical conclusion is that babies cannot do this yet.

Then this means you should have no problem showing the Book, Chapter, and Verse where Christ instills an age limit on children. Perhaps he did impose an age limit? Let’s see:

Matthew 19: 13. Then were little children presented to him, that he should impose hands upon them and pray. And the disciples rebuked them. 14. But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such.

Mark 10:14. Whom when Jesus saw, he was much displeased and saith to them: Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15. Amen I say to you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter into it.

I don’t see where Christ said: But before they come to me they must be at the age of reason. Do you?

Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, but no mention was made of an age limit so children and infants were baptized, too.

Again, I ask: If you have faith do you not want to share that faith? I shared my faith as a Catholic by having my infant son baptized. Did Jesus not cure afflicted based on the faith of others (see Mark 9:22-25)?

Christ said that blessed are those who believe, but have not seen. How blessed the baby who has been baptized.

But for the SS advocate, belief is based on seeing, with “seeing” it specifically defined in the Bible.

 

[JohnWilliams]

Knock it off with the incendiary rhetoric and produce some facts. You’re comparing a worldwide church that encompasses 1 billion believers, among them the very poorest of the poor, to your large, wealthy American congregation and its understandably large budget.

I compared this church with the Catholic Churches that are located in the same area.
But you seem to misunderstand where the Protestant Church is, and has been.
Try reading “Peace Child” where Don and his wife and 5 month old were dropped off in a village in Irian Jaya Indonesia, that they knew were headhunters, without knowing language or any customs to understand a Protestant Church planted in a “poor” area.

Furthermore, you’ve produced no statistics to justify this claim.

You also know that the parish that supposedly demanded a 1040 to prove whether your friend was tithing, if this is a true story, was doing something that is horribly wrong and decidedly not in line with Church teaching.

Yet it was done, and I would imagine it is done a lot. My friend did not like sharing this with me. This is the kind of truth that Catholics tend to hide from and blind themselves to, rather than rebuking the Priest.

But I could also tell you that my sister-in-law used to attend an evangelical church in which you couldn’t be a member

The 18,000+ parishoner church that I described doesn’t have a membership.

unless you gave 10% of your gross income and volunteered in at least one ministry. Were they wrong? Of course!

But quite Catholic of them to insist on works, don’t you think? For the saved, works are automatic product of relationship.

Does every evangelical church deserve to be placed in the same category as this one? Of course not.
Oh, you DON’T want to go there, do you? Take a few minutes to read the following:

Sexual Abuse in Social Context
Sexual Abuse of Children by Protestant Ministers
Voice to Stop Baptist Predators

Oh yeah, but this is a problem “the nature of which does not exist in the protestant church.” (which makes me wonder - what is *the *Protestant church? There really is no one Protestant church, is there?)

There is not. But pedophilia is a particular problem in the Catholic Church. There are thousands of plaintiffs and hundreds of millions paid - so far - by the Catholic Church. search.yahoo.com/search?p=catholic+lawsuit+million&sp=1&fr2=sp-top&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&ei=UTF-8&SpellState=n-1425245468_q-HPuVhLQ%2FCy.IfUODFgtpcAAAAA%40%40
You don’t need to read further than the Yahoo descriptions on the search page.

Ever heard that saying about people who live in glass houses? This is one of those areas in which neither of us should be making accusations.

This is a problem in your whole Church. It is not isolated to a parish or two. I believe it is a result of doctrine.

 

[JohnWilliams]

Luke 18:15 – Jesus said “Let the children come to me.” Did this exclude children who were not of the age of reason?

Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:15 And he laid [his] hands on them, and departed thence.

Did Jesus baptize the children?

 

[dalcent]

I’m English and a lot more Catholic people were killed in the foment over the Reformation than Protestants. Whose history have you been reading.:tsktsk:

In the short-lived reign of Bloody Mary many Protestants were put to death. But from Elizabeth onwards Catholicism was banned here for hundred of years and Catholics, priests in particular were murdered in unbelievable numbers. Guess who got to write the history?
Checkout www.tyburnconvent.org.uk

Catholics aren’t taught to tithe: your story can’t be true. You testimony is clearly falsified. My kids are at Catholic school: no one had to pay. My priest never wails for money like my Pentecostal pastors of long ago: I still see their Jaguar limosines!

I have just today seen the Catholic Children’s Society next to my kids school sending out hampers and kids toys to the less privileged parishoners.

The 'Circumcision made without hands’ is clearly referring to the divine effect of ‘regeneration’ brought about through simple water baptism/invoking the Triune Lord over a child. Whereas, circumcision was an external.

ALLFORHIM:

What happens when a person is baptized in the CC and then their parents dont teach them a thing about the CC(it happens)and they join a cult and committ suicide. You are telling me that person is going to go to heaven because they were baptized as a baby in the CC…

1. Parents who neglect their children’s spiritual or any aspect of their upbringing are rightly condemned by us all. Some children will not follow Christ as adults. Aleister Crowley the famous English satanist was the son of Plymouth Brethren. Who are we to apportion blame when this happens?

2. Many of these suicidal cults have been evangelical sects that became bad & went completely haywire following charismatic deluded leaders. Ever heard of Waco and the Branch Davidians? It’s NOT a Catholic thing!!!

1. No, Baptism / regeneration / being born again isn’t held to be the end of salvation by Catholics but the beginning: e.g. ‘…you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.’ 1Co 15:2 (NASB )

JohnWilliams, I’m quite curious to what sect you belong to. Have you said? Is it Skolfieldism? Are you all sane Baptists or are you likely to end your lives in an apocalyptic frenzy of fire and machine gun hail shooting at the FBI?ATF? screaming texts from Revelation and Ellis Skolfield’s books. Be careful son.
No Götterdämmerung please

 

[Mickey]

This is the kind of truth that Catholics tend to hide from and blind themselves to.

More stones–prejudiced opinion.

But quite Catholic of them to insist on works.

More stones–speaking a falsehood.

But pedophilia is a particular problem in the Catholic Church…

More stones–pedophilia is a problem throughout society and a horrible sin.

I believe it is a result of doctrine.

More stones–prejudiced opinion.

As your heart hardens and your posts become increasingly hostile toward the Catholic Church, your credibility on this forum becomes greatly diminished.

 

[jim1130]

Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:15 And he laid [his] hands on them, and departed thence.

Did Jesus baptize the children?

Not with immersion in water, but with his hands? Did Jesus baptize adults?

 

[jim1130]

Per capita the Evangelical Christian Church beats the pants off the Catholic Church in helping the poor, and money is not extorted from parishoners. (For example the Church needed the 1040 income tax return of a friend of mine, and told him he had to tithe in order to put his kid in a Catholic school.)

By contrast my evangelical church grew from 2 families to 18000, with an annual budget of 33 million dollars in the 20th year, without ever taking an offering or preaching a single sermon on financial stewardship.

But then we have to look at bad fruit as well as the good. The Crusades, the Christians killed in the reformation, or try a Yahoo to find the hundreds of millions of dollars the Church has paid to thousands of plantiffs - for a problem the nature of which does not exist in the protestant church. You are the only one so far that makes the preposterous claim that not baptizing an infant keeps the baby from Christ. Does you particular parish also sell absolution? And baptism’s perhaps?

And you continue to beat the disingenuous drumbeat that I am against infant baptism, when I am not.
Has infant baptism displaced adult baptism? Yes. Is it a good thing that older children and adults don’t get baptized after they make a decision for Christ? As do I. I also support baptism after one makes a decision for Christ. Would you like it if I said over and over ad nauseum that “MariaG is against adult baptism”? Do you wonder why you continue to want to tar me with a brush that doesn’t apply? Increasingly I seem to sense jealousy toward my relationship with my Savior in this forum. A really good read for folks here is “Peace Child”. This is about a missionary couple with a 5 month old son who were dropped off in the middle of a tribe of head-hunters. It is a course in salvation 101. Might be refreshing for some here.
We are born again through a circumcision of the heart. God removes our stony hearts and replaces them with a heart of flesh.

I compared this church with the Catholic Churches that are located in the same area.
But you seem to misunderstand where the Protestant Church is, and has been.
Try reading “Peace Child” where Don and his wife and 5 month old were dropped off in a village in Irian Jaya Indonesia, that they knew were headhunters, without knowing language or any customs to understand a Protestant Church planted in a “poor” area. Yet it was done, and I would imagine it is done a lot. My friend did not like sharing this with me. This is the kind of truth that Catholics tend to hide from and blind themselves to, rather than rebuking the Priest. The 18,000+ parishoner church that I described doesn’t have a membership. But quite Catholic of them to insist on works, don’t you think? For the saved, works are automatic product of relationship. There is not. But pedophilia is a particular problem in the Catholic Church. There are thousands of plaintiffs and hundreds of millions paid - so far - by the Catholic Church. search.yahoo.com/search?p=catholic+lawsuit+million&sp=1&fr2=sp-top&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&ei=UTF-8&SpellState=n-1425245468_q-HPuVhLQ%2FCy.IfUODFgtpcAAAAA%40%40
You don’t need to read further than the Yahoo descriptions on the search page. This is a problem in your whole Church. It is not isolated to a parish or two. I believe it is a result of doctrine.

I thought you were pretty rational, but I guess I was wrong. These posts speak volumes about you and show your true colors. Is the Catholic Church perfect? No. After all, the Catholic Church is comprised of human beings. I make no excuses for the behavior of some and believe they will be accountable, just as we all are. I choose to concentrate on the faith, not on the sins of some to define it.

You were baptized at age 3 and then re-baptized after your profession at age 51. What happened between those years?

From my personal experience with many people who “found Jesus” after a life of without, I have always found it interesting that these people tend to be the most judgmental, pious, and sanctimonious of the bunch, significantly less compassionate and intolerant of others. And after your statements I would say you would fit right into that category.

Have a nice life with your eisegesis.

 

[jim1130]

JohnWilliams:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

Same word in the interlinear:
(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Acts 2:39 umin <5213> {TO YOU} gar <1063> {FOR} estin <2076> (5748) {IS} h <3588> {THE} epaggelia <1860> {PROMISE} kai <2532> {AND} toiV <3588> {TO} teknoiV <5043> {YOUR} umwn <5216> {CHILDREN,} kai <2532> {AND} pasin <3956> {TO ALL} toiV <3588> {THOSE} eiV <1519> {AT} makran <3112> {A DISTANCE,} osouV <3745> an <302> {AS MANY AS} proskaleshtai <4341> (5667) {MAY CALL} kurioV <2962> o <3588> {[THE] LORD} qeoV <2316> hmwn <2257> {OUR GOD.}

When I was baptized a few young men of maybe 8 or 9 that I would characterize as children had made a decision for Christ and were being baptized as well.

Strong’s

children - New Testament Greek Definition: 5043 teknon {tek’-non}

from the base of 5098; TDNT - 5:636,759; n n
AV - child 77, son 21, daughter 1; 99

1. offspring, children
   1a) child
   1a) a male child, a son
   1b) metaph.
   1b1) the name transferred to that intimate and reciprocal
   relationship formed between men by the bonds of love,
   friendship, trust, just as between parents and children
   1b2) in affectionate address, such as patrons, helpers,
   teachers and the like employ: my child
   1b3) in the NT, pupils or disciples are called children of
   their teachers, because the latter by their instruction
   nourish the minds of their pupils and mould their
   characters
   1b4) children of God: in the OT of “the people of Israel” as
   especially dear to God, in the NT, in Paul’s writings, all
   who are led by the Spirit of God and thus closely related
   to God
   1b5) children of the devil: those who in thought and action are
   prompted by the devil, and so reflect his character
   1c) metaph.
   1c1) of anything who depends upon it, is possessed by a
   desire or affection for it, is addicted to it
   1c2) one who is liable to any fate
   1c2a) thus children of a city: it citizens and inhabitants
   1c3) the votaries of wisdom, those souls who have, as it
   were, been nurtured and moulded by wisdom
   1c4) cursed children, exposed to a curse and doomed to God’s
   wrath or penalty

johnwilliams:

How many households were referenced, and what was the composition of the household(s)?

johnwilliams:

Without knowing the composition it may not be a good idea to build a doctrine around it. I don’t know their compositions but here are a couple of verses I found when I did a search for “household” (I am posting without having read any context):

You know Greek, but do not know the composition of the households 2,000 years ago? Did “households” only mean adults? What is the “household” composition of your Protestant church’s 18,000 members?

The Old Covenant included infants. These infants were 8 days old.

Why would the New Covenant exclude children? Where does the New Covenant stipulate children are prohibited until they reach the age of reason? According to you, and not the Bible, “children,” and children of reason I presume, are aged 8 and 9.

Is your position that babies are unconditionally saved, i.e. do not need baptism to wash away original sin inherited from Adam and Eve, until they reach the age of reason?

Acts 2:39 and Acts 21:21 show support (teknon is used both times) for baptizing children and infants. You’ve not produced one scriptural verse that prohibits the baptizing of children. Your entire argument is “show me the verse that says to baptize infants.” If the Bible is the sole inerrant rule of faith, as you propose, then I think that the responsibility to prove infants were deliberately excluded from baptism is upon you. As a Catholic, we know that the Bible is not the lone and solitary rule of faith (after all, the Church came before the Bible) so we follow Scripture and Tradition (the oral and written word) 2 Thess. 2:15.

I am stumped that with your professed faith you do not want it to be shared immediately with infants and children through baptism.

 

[djrakowski]

I compared this church with the Catholic Churches that are located in the same area.
But you seem to misunderstand where the Protestant Church is, and has been.
Try reading “Peace Child” where Don and his wife and 5 month old were dropped off in a village in Irian Jaya Indonesia, that they knew were headhunters, without knowing language or any customs to understand a Protestant Church planted in a “poor” area.

So many problems, misconceptions and half truths, and so little time to address them.

First, the Catholic Church does not merely exist as the parishes in your area.

Second, you have no way of knowing whether the unfortunate and un-Christian behavior your friend supposedly experienced in his parish is common to the other parishes in your area, let alone if it is in common practice in the Catholic Church throughout the world - you’re engaging in speculation out of prejudice.

Third, do you mean to tell me that the Protestant church is in Irian Jaya? I thought Protestants were all those who are Christian but not members of the Catholic or Orthodox churches.

Fourth, how does your point about the poor church planted in Irian Jaya have anything to do with giving levels? Did those Protestants give more per capita, and if so, do you have any statistics that bear that out?

Fifth, if you’re Protestant, then it may be reasonable to assume that you refer to the Bible as the ultimate source for valid Christian doctrinal and moral teachings. Why would I need a book written by a man to explain to me where the church is located? Shouldn’t the Bible alone be sufficient?

And sixth, why don’t you just sum up the essential description of the Protestant church, rather than sending me off to read a book?

Yet it was done, and I would imagine it is done a lot. My friend did not like sharing this with me. This is the kind of truth that Catholics tend to hide from and blind themselves to, rather than rebuking the Priest.

You imagine that it is done a lot, but you can offer no proof, and therefore lack any shred of credibility you may have had on the matter. If you’re making such accusations, it is up to you to offer definitive proof, or otherwise, stop repeating the accusations. Furthermore, tell your friend that he has recourse with his own bishop, and if he sees no results there, he can report it all the way up the chain to the Vatican. And if he fails to do so, then he’s just blowing smoke, like you are.

The 18,000+ parishoner church that I described doesn’t have a membership.

Point taken, but you’re only saying this because you don’t have any **facts **to back up your assertion of the overwhelming generosity of evangelical Christians in comparison to us supposedly stingy Catholics. And I stand by my initial statement that you’re comparing apples (the evangelical congregation you attend in wealthy America) and oranges (the worldwide Catholic church that consists of 1 billion believers in practically every corner of the globe). So, do you have facts, or are you going to leave us to imagine that you’re blinded by prejudice against the Catholic Church? In other words, on this point, put up or shut up.

But quite Catholic of them to insist on works, don’t you think?

What the heck are you talking about?

For the saved, works are automatic product of relationship. There is not. But pedophilia is a particular problem in the Catholic Church. There are thousands of plaintiffs and hundreds of millions paid - so far - by the Catholic Church. search.yahoo.com/search?p=catholic+lawsuit+million&sp=1&fr2=sp-top&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&ei=UTF-8&SpellState=n-1425245468_q-HPuVhLQ%2FCy.IfUODFgtpcAAAAA%40%40
You don’t need to read further than the Yahoo descriptions on the search page. This is a problem in your whole Church. It is not isolated to a parish or two. I believe it is a result of doctrine.

Nice way to totally brush off the problem of clergy sex abuse in *all *religious bodies. You don’t want to address the real problem that exists in every organization, and that leads one to conclude - once again - that you don’t care about facts, but would rather deal in generalities and perpetuate gross prejudice.

And, a doctrinal problem? Point out an infallible statement from a Church council, or a statement from a pope, or a paragraph in the Catechism, that proves it is morally and spiritually legitimate to abuse minor children. You won’t find one, and further entrench in the minds of the faithful Catholics reading this that you’re prejudiced, and that prejudice has made it impossible for you to make intelligent statements about our most holy faith. And it makes one wonder why you’ve joined these forums.

 

[JohnWilliams]

I’m English and a lot more Catholic people were killed in the foment over the Reformation than Protestants. Whose history have you been reading.:tsktsk:

In the short-lived reign of Bloody Mary many Protestants were put to death. But from Elizabeth onwards Catholicism was banned here for hundred of years and Catholics, priests in particular were murdered in unbelievable numbers. Guess who got to write the history?
Checkout www.tyburnconvent.org.uk

This didn’t have anything to do with the Church of England did it? Some fruit of this church is still alive and well today in the Episcopal Church USA. Check the news.
search.yahoo.com/search?p=ecusa+robinson&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

You see, you are trying to justify the deeds of the Catholic Church by pointing to another evil, rather than simply repenting for the deeds of your Church. The same kind of thought processes that led the Church burning Revormers at the stake.

Catholics aren’t taught to tithe: your story can’t be true. You testimony is clearly falsified.

But who is abandoning the truth now, since I related what my friend told me, and that was that he was expected to cough up 10% of his income to the Church, verified by tax return, in order to matriculate his kids in the Catholic school.

My kids are at Catholic school: no one had to pay. My priest never wails for money like my Pentecostal pastors of long ago: I still see their Jaguar limosines!

If this is a problem in the Pentecostal Church, it is not the only one.

I have just today seen the Catholic Children’s Society next to my kids school sending out hampers and kids toys to the less privileged parishoners.

While hundreds of Christians are martyred around the world every day. Not that passing out toys to kids is a bad thing.

The 'Circumcision made without hands’ is clearly referring to the divine effect of ‘regeneration’ brought about through simple water baptism

There is nothing clear about this at all. Support it with scripture.

Here’s an important verse for Catholics, particularly in regard to this thread:
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

/invoking the Triune Lord over a child. Whereas, circumcision was an external.

1. Parents who neglect their children’s spiritual or any aspect of their upbringing are rightly condemned by us all.

Amen

Some children will not follow Christ as adults. Aleister Crowley the famous English satanist was the son of Plymouth Brethren. Who are we to apportion blame when this happens?

2. Many of these suicidal cults have been evangelical sects that became bad & went completely haywire following charismatic deluded leaders. Ever heard of Waco and the Branch Davidians? It’s NOT a Catholic thing!!!

Nor is it a product of rightly dividing of the Word

1. No, Baptism / regeneration / being born again isn’t held to be the end of salvation by Catholics but the beginning: e.g. ‘…you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.’ 1Co 15:2 (NASB )

JohnWilliams, I’m quite curious to what sect you belong to. Have you said? Is it Skolfieldism?

Skolfield simply proffers a hermeneutically disciplined, linear historic, Bible study of Dan/Rev eschatology. It is peculiar to me why so many seem to fear a book.

Are you all sane Baptists or are you likely to end your lives in an apocalyptic frenzy of fire and machine gun hail shooting at the FBI?ATF? screaming texts from Revelation and Ellis Skolfield’s books. Be careful son.
No Götterdämmerung please

Well done! Such righteous judgment! And appointing yourself to caution me to “be careful” in the same breath!

 

[dalcent]

Nevertheless, I would appreciate knowing your denom. Do you insist new members are re-baptized even when they are immersion baptised evangelicals. I’m sorry JW but something just doesn’t smell right. Perhaps it’s just your emphasis on end-time prophecy and a single teaching figure: Skolfield.

I can’t seriously put him on par with the Fathers and Doctors of the Patristic Church. Your high appraisal of him is purely the opinion of a few contemporary supporters. Big deal. I’m thinking more in terms of cosmic importantance not comic self-importance.

I can assure you I am familiar with the streams of modern apocalyptic obsessions. Do you want me to rattle off all the authors I’ve read regarding ‘the End times’.

Worry about your own judgement for attacking the Bride of Christ. I follow Christ and His Church: I don’t have to fawn over your guru or God will judge me: pure cult-speak!

 

[djrakowski]

Skolfield simply proffers a hermeneutically disciplined, linear historic, Bible study of Dan/Rev eschatology. It is peculiar to me why so many seem to fear a book.

Why do you use and recommend books other than the Bible? You’re not able to come to a clear understanding of sacred scripture with the aide of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Mickey]

You see, you are trying to justify the deeds of the Catholic Church by pointing to another evil, rather than simply repenting for the deeds of your Church. The same kind of thought processes that led the Church burning Revormers at the stake.

You just pointed to another evil to justify your stance! Are you for real?

 

[djrakowski]

You just pointed to another evil to justify your stance! Are you for real?

Mickey, haven’t you figured it out by now? Only Catholics have committed evil acts in the realm of Christianity. Note how he dragged clergy sex abuse into this discussion, claimed that it was a Catholic-only problem, then dodged and threw up smokescreens when presented with **facts **that say otherwise.

Yeah, he’s for real.

 

[rbarcia]

Luke 18:15 – Jesus said “Let the children come to me.” Did this exclude children who were not of the age of reason?

Look (source: scripturecatholic.com/baptism_qa.html)).

So why do catholic kids have to wait till their seven to take communion. It seems like you are picking and choosing. Catholics believe in Real Presence, then little children under seven should be allowed to take communion from the minute they can eat bread, based on this reasoning since you believe that Christ is really in the bread, why can’t children under seven receive communion?? You are forbidding children under seven then from coming to Christ.

However, Let little children come to me does not mean let little children be baptized. Unless you believe in Jesus presence in the Water? It seems you are in more violation of this children rule with communion.

Acts 2:39. Peter says that baptism is for children as well as adults. The Greek word used for children is “teknon.” This is the same word used to describe eight-day old infants in Acts 21:21.

The context suggest otherwise. They were to do 2 thing, Repent and be baptized. An infant cannot do the first. The phrasing is such that, if your children repent and is baptized, then the promise is theirs.

**

Acts 2

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

**

Acts 16:15. Lydia’s household (again, in the Greek, “oikos,” which includes children) was baptized based on Lydia’s faith.

Please show for me the verse that excludes infants from baptism. You have never shown that. You have made a presumption over your own interpretation.

The verse does not suggest that Lydia’s household was Baptized solely on her faith, you are deriving that yourself.

Later in the chapter, we see an example of the whole household believing.

**

Acts 16

32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

**

In verse 32, he spoke with everyone in the house, it would seem odd to speak to infants. This is strong enough evidence, but after being baptized in verse 33, verse 34 says the whole household believed . Obviously, an infant cannot believe yet. Here we have an example, with context, of the whole household believing. So it is quite obvious there was no infant.

 

[jim1130]

Skolfield simply proffers a hermeneutically disciplined, linear historic, Bible study of Dan/Rev eschatology. It is peculiar to me why so many seem to fear a book.

I am confused. “Infant baptism” is not identified sufficiently in the Bible to JW’s satisfaction so it is therefore summarily dismissed by him (and Early Church Father writings are insufficient to change his mind because they are not part of the Bible), but yet he embraces a non—Biblical book as definitive source that reinforces his theology so he is embracing an authority that is not recognized in the Bible, but truly a man-made tradition.

 

[JohnWilliams]

So many problems, misconceptions and half truths, and so little time to address them.

First, the Catholic Church does not merely exist as the parishes in your area.

That’s right. And I don’t believe the problems are common in all Catholic Churches.

Second, you have no way of knowing whether the unfortunate and un-Christian behavior your friend supposedly experienced in his parish is common to the other parishes in your area, let alone if it is in common practice in the Catholic Church throughout the world - you’re engaging in speculation out of prejudice.

What I did was relate what happened to my friend. This was in part response to the sanctimonious flap trap raised by another in regard to what the Catholic Church does for the poor. ALL churches do this or they’re likely not churches.

Third, do you mean to tell me that the Protestant church is in Irian Jaya? I thought Protestants were all those who are Christian but not members of the Catholic or Orthodox churches.

The Church is composed of believers with a circumcision of the heart. Bringing the headhunting villages there to Christ Jesus is what the Lord empowered Don and his wife do. They are now part of the Church. Saved Christians.

Fourth, how does your point about the poor church planted in Irian Jaya have anything to do with giving levels? Did those Protestants give more per capita, and if so, do you have any statistics that bear that out?

The point is that saved are the Church. It isn’t about what we do or what we believe a Priest does for us.

Fifth, if you’re Protestant, then it may be reasonable to assume that you refer to the Bible as the ultimate source for valid Christian doctrinal and moral teachings.

The Bible IS INDEED the ULTIMATE source.
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Why would I need a book written by a man to explain to me where the church is located? Shouldn’t the Bible alone be sufficient?

Some might not care recognize the value of a dear sweet 79 year old every day saint who has been steeped in scripture since on his mother’s knee as missionaries in the Phillippines. I believe this adds richness to study and understanding. Why not read the book and several of his papers to get to know him a little better. You might appreciate this paper: End Time Myth: ellisskolfield.com/pdf/An-End-Time-Myth.pdf

And sixth, why don’t you just sum up the essential description of the Protestant church, rather than sending me off to read a book?

The protestant Church is about being saved by grace through faith. This church does have considerable eschatological error as does the Catholic Church. Skolfield’s is an interesting view of Dan/Rev eschatology. Perhaps it’s not for everybody but why be afraid to read a chapter or two?

If you want to read about the Church try Revelation Chapter 2 and figure out what all the "overcommeth"ing is about.

You imagine that it is done a lot, but you can offer no proof, and therefore lack any shred of credibility you may have had on the matter. If you’re making such accusations, it is up to you to offer definitive proof, or otherwise, stop repeating the accusations. Furthermore, tell your friend that he has recourse with his own bishop, and if he sees no results there, he can report it all the way up the chain to the Vatican. And if he fails to do so, then he’s just blowing smoke, like you are.

I merely reported what he told me. But Catholics tend to believe that men in their church have power over their salvation, which could be an inhibiting factor. Or has the Catholic Church ended the practice of excommunication?

 

[JohnWilliams]

Point taken, but you’re only saying this because you don’t have any **facts **to back up your assertion of the overwhelming generosity of evangelical Christians in comparison to us supposedly stingy Catholics. And I stand by my initial statement that you’re comparing apples (the evangelical congregation you attend in wealthy America) and oranges (the worldwide Catholic church that consists of 1 billion believers in practically every corner of the globe). So, do you have facts, or are you going to leave us to imagine that you’re blinded by prejudice against the Catholic Church? In other words, on this point, put up or shut up.

The Yahoo search spoke amply to this subject and I got dragged into these specifics and do not care to continue.

What the heck are you talking about?

Maybe it’s past your notice but Catholics in here seem to frequently cite that works are necessary for salvation. It seems like they look at it as a burden rather than a natural result of salvation. Protestants believe that all of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

Nice way to totally brush off the problem of clergy sex abuse in *all *religious bodies. You don’t want to address the real problem that exists in every organization, and that leads one to conclude - once again - that you don’t care about facts, but would rather deal in generalities and perpetuate gross prejudice.

I supported the premise with the Yahoo search. How many lawsuits, for how many plaintiffs for same, do you find in the Protestant Church?

And, a doctrinal problem?

Would seem to be primarily the result of the requirement that Priests be unmarried. Unless this isn’t the case anymore.

Point out an infallible statement

Men cannot make infallible statements.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
How can unrighteous men proffer infallible statements?

from a Church council, or a statement from a pope, or a paragraph in the Catechism, that proves it is morally and spiritually legitimate to abuse minor children. You won’t find one, and further entrench in the minds of the faithful Catholics reading this that you’re prejudiced, and that prejudice has made it impossible for you to make intelligent statements about our most holy faith. And it makes one wonder why you’ve joined these forums.

I came here from a web search and then decided to learn a little more about the Catholic faith.
What I find is a few folks that seem to be insecure in regard to their relationship with Jesus Christ. Like their salvation is dependent on something their Church does, or what their Priest does for them, rather than having the focus on what they do in regard to relationship with Jesus Christ.
“We have the ‘real presence’ and you don’t nanner nanner” kind of thing.
But then my vision is colored by my faith. But then I did recently overcome eschatological doctrine that I held a strong belief in for quite some time. So I have been deceived by doctrine and well understand the power of doctrine.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey, haven’t you figured it out by now? Only Catholics have committed evil acts in the realm of Christianity. Note how he dragged clergy sex abuse into this discussion, claimed that it was a Catholic-only problem, then dodged and threw up smokescreens when presented with **facts **that say otherwise.

Yes. You are correct.
I am ashamed that I even attempted to engage this poster.

 

[JohnWilliams]

Yes. You are correct.
I am ashamed that I even attempted to engage this poster.

Surely you don’t think the Catholic Church was justified in it’s persecutions, simply because you can find other Churches that acted contrary to Scripture as well.