Are Catholics "born again"?

[AlegreFe]

…cont

Acts 18:8

In this case, yes they believed and it seems the household also. But you have to remember that they were all converts to Christianity. And most converts are adults. But when these adults convert they have their babies baptized also in the case of the Catholic family.

Acts 19:1-7

This sounds like the sacrament of Confirmation to me. But in any case, these are converts to the faith.

If an adult convert from Judism (or older child) comes to the Catholic faith the Church does ask if they believe. This only AFTER instruction is given (as in Acts 8:30-31) as in RCIA. Then they proceed to the Sacraments of Christian Initiation which include Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Communion.

The article “How to become a Catholic” by James Akin describes this nicely.

Acts 22:12-16

Acts 22:14
14 Then he said, 'The God of our
ancestors designated you to
know his will, to see the Righteous
One, and to hear the sound of his voice

Don’t you think God calls most people to Himself? Don’t you also believe that God is transcendent? If God calls us, whomever He desires, then He calls on His time which I believe is from the beginning, which is His present time. God calls us all by name and God calls us before we are born so therefore from the moment we are born God has already called us. So why not baptize from days we are born since God already called on us?

Galations 3:26-29

Gal 3:26-27
26 For through faith you are all
children of God in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were
baptized into Christ have clothed
yourselves with Christ.

Yes :yup: in my household, ALL are children of God through Faith. As I have faith my child was baptized as an infant because my Faith is good enough to have my child healed just as the centurion’s servant was healed just with the faith of the centurion.

Im sure these people made a conscious decision to believe before they were baptized. Otherwise why would they bother.

Why bother??!! Because Jesus said that NO ONE can enter the Kingdom unless born again of water AND spirit.

 

[FromTheCrossroa]

From the Catholic Christian point of view? Yes, it is wrong because it calls into question the power of God.

From a non-Catholic Christian, depends on the denomination.

Fair enough. I am very glad then I was baptized at age 10 as my daughter will be also! Honestly, it would mean very little to me just to have a piece of paper.

 

[JohnWilliams]

But in fact most Evangelicals do claim that baptism is just a symbol. It smacks of nothing but facts. How is it unrighteous judgement to say that so many Evangelicals claim, when in fact, so many do claim it? He is not saying all.

From Christian Apologetics and Research Ministries Is Baptism necessary for Salvation . This article finds that baptism is only a covenant sign and not regenerative.

Assembly of God Ordinances of the Church declare that baptism “symbolically declares”…

The Evangelical Free Church of America says that while baptism should be observed, it is not a means of salvation, (ie, one clearly is not “born again” in the same regenerative manner that Catholics declare.)

If it is not just a symbol for many, why do so many(most) Evangelicals not baptize infants? Or one finds in the Pentecostal churches alot of “rebaptizing”.

While there certainly may be some “evangelical Churches” that do believe baptism is regenerative, one can see from just a quick look at three sites that came up, that not many, do in fact believe that baptism is anything but a symbol. (ps. Also in my personal experience, I have never met until you? a self proclaimed evangelical who does believe that baptism is regenerative. Do you believe it is regenerative?)

Respectfully,
Maria

I believe that a Catholic can be baptized as a baby, go to Church every Sunday all their lives, go to confession and the whole nine yards, but still never for a moment have been saved. In other words, do I believe that we are saved through an act of the flesh? No I do not.

Some in here seem to believe that following some rules leads to salvation. I don’t (and particularly when some rules sprang forth without basis in, and are even contradicted by Scripture). Or that not following some rule excludes you from salvation even when a person has a circumcision of the heart. I don’t believe that either.

A good book for folks in here would be “Peace Child” by Don Richardson. A great salvation story.

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

A circumcision of the heart leads to following our Lord and Savior in obedience in the law. Baptism in water is part of that obedience when we are born again in the Spirit.

 

[tequilamac]

I believe that a Catholic can be baptized as a baby, go to Church every Sunday all their lives, go to confession and the whole nine yards, but still never for a moment have been saved. In other words, do I believe that we are saved through an act of the flesh? No I do not.

Some in here seem to believe that following some rules leads to salvation. I don’t (and particularly when some rules sprang forth without basis in, and are even contradicted by Scripture). Or that not following some rule excludes you from salvation even when a person has a circumcision of the heart. I don’t believe that either.

A good book for folks in here would be “Peace Child” by Don Richardson. A great salvation story.

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

A circumcision of the heart leads to following our Lord and Savior in obedience in the law. Baptism in water is part of that obedience when we are born again in the Spirit.

You of course are entitled to your opinion. But what you are not entitled to under God, only under the Constitution is leading people astray. Why should we follow you? Is your grass greener?

 

[Mickey]

Some in here seem to believe that following some rules leads to salvation.

Really? Who are these people?

 

[Orionthehunter]

rbarcia, stay with me here. I was responding to a comment you made to justify your contention that there is no reason to have infant baptism.

Obviously, an infant cannot believe yet. Here we have an example, with context, of the whole household believing. So it is quite obvious there was no infant.

Mickey responded that St. John the Baptist lept in the womb to which you responded that St. John the Baptist was special and unique leading to my following response.

For one who claims we should take the Bible literally, you sure seem willing to discount alot of evidence that belief and response to God happens even in the womb. While there are certain blessings that were give to John the Baptist not afforded most, it sure looks like God give the unborn more credit than you.

Gal 1:15 “But when (God), who from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace.” (We are called at conception to be children of God)

Psalm 22: “Yet you drew me forth from the womb, made me safe at my mother’s breast. Upon you I was thrust from the womb; since birth you are my God.” (Sure looks like belief is possible for infants)

Psalm 58: “The wicked have been corrupt since birth; liars from the womb, they have gone astray.” (If you can be a non-believer in the womb, why can’t you be a believer?)

Psalm 71 “On you I depend since birth; from my mother’s womb you are my strength; my hope in you never wavers.” (If we depend on God since birth and not some later date, why should we deny them the graces of Baptism until later?)

Sirach 1:12 “The beginning of wisdom is fear of the LORD, which is formed with the faithful in the womb.” (I guess we can be a believer in the womb)

Sirach 46: 13 “Beloved of his people, dear to his Maker, dedicated from his mother’s womb, Consecrated to the LORD as a prophet, was SAMUEL, the judge and priest. At God’s word he established the kingdom and anointed princes to rule the people.” (This certainly looks like it happened as an infant!)

Sirach 49: 6-7 “Who burned the holy city and left its streets desolate, As JEREMIAH had foretold; for they had treated him badly who even in the womb had been made a prophet, To root out, pull down, and destroy, and then to build and to plant.” (Another example of acts of faith happening in the womb. Jeremiah had to have responded to the call voluntarily in the womb to accept this vocation).

Isaiah 49:1 "Hear me, O coastlands, listen, O distant peoples. The LORD called me from birth, from my mother’s womb he gave me my name. "

Hosea 12:3-4 "The LORD has a grievance against Israel: he shall punish Jacob for his conduct, for his deeds he shall repay him. In the womb he supplanted his brother, and as a man he contended with God;

I am not sure where you are going here. The Lord loves us for sure, and watches over us. But we are talking about a babies ability to repent. The Lord knows who will come to Him and who will reject Him. But none of these deal with giving man or woman credit.

While you are now trying to change your position to that infants can’t repent, it still flies in the face of Scripture. Note from Psalm 58 where the “wicked were corrupt since birth” which needs they had need to repent. From all these quotes it shows the individuality of each person begins to express itself at conception, including “decisions” for or against God. It is is totally logical for parents who love their child to want them to become adopted children of God as soon as possible as opposed to making them live outside the family of God until they are older and susceptible to temporal temptations that might prevent them from ever entering the family of God.

I think part of the problem in this debate is a failure of the non-Catholics to understand the Catholic perspective of Baptism. Baptism is more than a “dedication” of the child to God (as per the Temple dedication of the OT people) and it is more than a washing away of sins. It is also an act whereby God makes a free gift of graces to avoid future sin and enhance our capacity to grow in Holiness.

Because of length limitations, I’m not going to repeat all the Scripture previously posted in this thread which points out that Baptism is an important component of gaining Salvation and not just a symbol of something else (i.e. an adult dedication of their life to Christ). But is ironic that so-called “Bible believers” would so easily discount what is clear in Scripture but that is another issue for another thread.

This thread is about Catholics being born again. I think the case has been made that we believe that Baptism is our new birth as a child of God. We then live our lives journeying in an attempt to remain as good members of this family. When we fail, we have need to repent and reconvert as did the Prodigal Son. And, because of God’s perfect Love and Mercy, we are gratefully welcomed back into the Household.

 

[JohnWilliams]

Really? Who are these people?

Brother they are in every Church, including yours.

 

[JohnWilliams]

You of course are entitled to your opinion. But what you are not entitled to under God, only under the Constitution is leading people astray. Why should we follow you? Is your grass greener?

Do you believe that as long as a person follows rules that the Church lays out they are saved?

 

[Mickey]

Brother they are in every Church, including yours.

Brother, you said: “some in here”. That sounds like a judgement/accusation and these people have a right to defend themselves.

 

[JohnWilliams]

Brother, you said: “some in here”. That sounds like a judgement/accusation and these people have a right to defend themselves.

Why would a person in here feel a need to defend themselves if they did not believe they were part of the group of whom I spoke?

You might have been better served to have taken a more careful read of what I wrote: "Some in here seem to believe … ". This is neither judgment nor accusation. I may or may not be correct in my observation. Did you feel convicted by this?

I don’t believe that anyone in here would deny my point. Do you?

 

[Mickey]

Why would a person in here feel a need to defend themselves

Because you make a blanket accusation without facts. Whoever it is you may be referring to, may in fact not believe that way. But then again, we’ll never know, because you like to play little games. In fact, I believe I shall join those who have shaken the dust from their feet.

 

[jim1130]

I am not sure where you are going here. The Lord loves us for sure, and watches over us. But we are talking about a babies ability to repent. The Lord knows who will come to Him and who will reject Him. But none of these deal with giving man or woman credit.

Your question were answered moments ago. As Catholics, we view Baptism as regenerative. Only YOU are obsessed with this issue of babies repenting. So far, not one non-Catholic has ever produced one verse that says do NOT baptize infants.

MariaG - We believe that baptism is regenerative. (# 342)

AlegreFe - When we are “born again” or baptized, we do receive the Holy Spirit. We are regenerated with a new life, a life as God’s children, a life which is now clean of original sin. Catholics ARE “born again” when we are baptized as infants. We receive Sanctifying Grace from God, we become His children. (# 344)

MariaG - But in fact most Evangelicals do claim that baptism is just a symbol….While there certainly may be some “evangelical Churches” that do believe baptism is regenerative, one can see from just a quick look at three sites that came up, that not many, do in fact believe that baptism is anything but a symbol. (# 347)

AlegreFe - Adult baptism was abundant because they were all converts. (# 350)

 

[JohnWilliams]

Your question were answered moments ago. As Catholics, we view Baptism as regenerative. Only YOU are obsessed with this issue of babies repenting. So far, not one non-Catholic has ever produced one verse that says do NOT baptize infants.

Pretty shaky grounds for a doctrine.

 

[jim1130]

"jim1130:

Your question were answered moments ago. As Catholics, we view Baptism as regenerative. Only YOU are obsessed with this issue of babies repenting. So far, not one non-Catholic has ever produced one verse that says do NOT baptize infants.

Pretty shaky grounds for a doctrine.

And I am STILL waiting for you to show that we are told NOT to baptize infants. Besides, since you are not Catholic what do you care?

 

[Orionthehunter]

Brother they are in every Church, including yours.

John, I know this is true. But what is important is what the Church teaches. These practices and rituals are not the end but that these practices and rituals are means to become more Holy, to better know God so we can better understand His plan for us, and the better one knows God, the better one can love Him.

We are called to know and love God. Nothing more and nothing less. Christ gave us the Church at Pentecost so that He can remain visibly as well as spiritually among us so that His beacon of Light can be seen such that we know where to find Him.

Mickey, I was about to respond to this accusation too. You beat me to it. Personally, I don’t recall a single person in this thread saying what he accuses. And, if there was such a person, it is so diminimus as to make the accusation a distraction from the real issue.

 

[JohnWilliams]

And I am STILL waiting for you to show that we are told NOT to baptize infants.

But if you had followed this thread you would readily understand that I believe that the Lord would likely look kindly on the act, even if it would seem to be extra-scriptural.

I am a godfather of two Catholic kids (before I was born again, but a churchgoer. Actually the first one before I was a Churchgoer. In both cases before I agreed, I made sure that they knew that there would be no promises or expectation that I would raise their kids in the Roman Catholic faith.).

I was baptized as an infant, but I don’t believe I was saved until I was 54 years of age.

I don’t believe Jesus would look kindly on a person who was baptized as a baby, and believed that that was what made them a Christian. Nor do I believe that Jesus would look kindly at all, on a person that would even intimate that an unbaptized baby could be headed to perdition.

If we are to come unto Jesus as children, then one might say that children are the model for the condition of the heart that we need to approach Jesus, and unaware, untaught babies, the most innocent in this model.

Besides, since you are not Catholic what do you care?

Could you be more specific with this question please?

 

[JohnWilliams]

John, I know this is true. But what is important is what the Church teaches. These practices and rituals are not the end but that these practices and rituals are means to become more Holy, to better know God so we can better understand His plan for us, and the better one knows God, the better one can love Him.

I agree. I believe the Lord loves acts of obedience. Like Jewish sacrifice. I don’t believe that was what saved them, but I believe the Lord loved their obedience to the law.
However, I do not believe that rituals that run afoul of scripture would be included on the list of obedience that God loves. Indeed I believe Jesus warning to the Pharisees may well apply in spades to today’s church.
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

We are called to know and love God. Nothing more and nothing less. Christ gave us the Church at Pentecost so that He can remain visibly as well as spiritually among us so that His beacon of Light can be seen such that we know where to find Him.

Indeed, He is in us.

Mickey, I was about to respond to this accusation too. You beat me to it. Personally, I don’t recall a single person in this thread saying what he accuses. And, if there was such a person, it is so diminimus as to make the accusation a distraction from the real issue.

When I used the term “seem” that should indicate that it is my perception, not an accusation. But then we all have to understand the eyes through which we our perception comes. I was a futurist for a decade or more, steeped in Jack Van Impe. I never even had any idea that a different eschatology existed in the Church. For example, someone in here in another thread said that it was the first time they heard the term “futurist”.

It is human nature to see things that support what we believe, and to scale our eyes over to the things that don’t agree with what we believe. This goes for hobbies, politics and most adamantly to our religious beliefs. I guess what I am saying is just because we can’t see something from where we sit, doesn’t mean it isn’t so.

 

[jim1130]

But if you had followed this thread you would readily understand that I believe that the Lord would likely look kindly on the act, even if it would seem to be extra-scriptural.

I have followed, even your rants about the end times and your commitment to the authority of a false prophet (Skolfield).

johnwilliams:

I am a godfather of two Catholic kids (before I was born again, but a churchgoer. Actually the first one before I was a Churchgoer. In both cases before I agreed, I made sure that they knew that there would be no promises or expectation that I would raise their kids in the Roman Catholic faith.).

I was baptized as an infant, but I don’t believe I was saved until I was 54 years of age.

So, what God did the first time (baptism) did not take for you? You mean God erred?

johnwilliams:

I don’t believe Jesus would look kindly on a person who was baptized as a baby, and believed that that was what made them a Christian. Nor do I believe that Jesus would look kindly at all, on a person that would even intimate that an unbaptized baby could be headed to perdition.

How do you know that Jesus would not look kindly? What is the basis of your opinion?

Also, refer to the Catechim with all of the applicable biblical footnotes.

1213 - Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5

4 Cf. Council Of Florence: DS 1314: vitae spiritualis ianua.
5 Roman Catechism II,2,5; Cf. Council Of Florence: DS 1314; CIC, cann. 204 § 1; 849; CCEO, can. 675 § 1.

1215 - This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."7

7 Titus 3:5; Jn 3:5.

1216 - Baptism is God’s most beautiful and magnificent gift. . . .We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty; Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God’s Lordship.10

8 St. Justin, Apol. 1,61,12G 6,421.
9 Jn 1:9; 1 Thess 5:5; Heb 10:32; Eph 5:8.
10 St. Gregory Of Nazianzus, Oratio 40,3-4G 36,361C

— continued —

 

[jim1130]

— continued —

1226 - From the very day of Pentecost the Church has celebrated and administered holy Baptism. Indeed St. Peter declares to the crowd astounded by his preaching: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."26 The apostles and their collaborators offer Baptism to anyone who believed in Jesus: Jews, the God-fearing, pagans.27 Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household,” St. Paul declared to his jailer in Philippi. And the narrative continues, the jailer "was baptized at once, with all his family."28

26 Acts 2:38.
27 Cf. Acts 2:41; 8:12-13; 10:48; 16:15.
28 Acts 16:31-33.
29 Rom 6:3-4; cf. Col 2:12.

1229 - From the time of the apostles, becoming a Christian has been accomplished by a journey and initiation in several stages. This journey can be covered rapidly or slowly, but certain essential elements will always have to be present: proclamation of the Word, acceptance of the Gospel entailing conversion, profession of faith, Baptism itself, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and admission to Eucharistic communion.

1231 - Where infant Baptism has become the form in which this sacrament is usually celebrated, it has become a single act encapsulating the preparatory stages of Christian initiation in a very abridged way. By its very nature infant Baptism requires a post-baptismal catechumenate. Not only is there a need for instruction after Baptism, but also for the necessary flowering of baptismal grace in personal growth. The catechism has its proper place here.

1250 - Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

50 Cf. Council of Trent (1546): DS 1514; cf. Col 1:12-14.
51 Cf. CIC, can. 867; CCEO, cann. 681; 686,1.

1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.52

52 Cf. LG 11; 41; GS 48; CIC, can. 868.

1252 - The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53

53 Cf. Acts 16:15,33; 18:8; 1 Cor 1:16; CDF, instruction, Pastoralis actio: AAS 72 (1980) 1137-1156

1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith.54 But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” The response is: “Faith!”

54 Cf. Mk 16:16.

1254 For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. For this reason the Church celebrates each year at the Easter Vigil the renewal of baptismal promises. Preparation for Baptism leads only to the threshold of new life. Baptism is the source of that new life in Christ from which the entire Christian life springs forth.

1255 For the grace of Baptism to unfold, the parents’ help is important. So too is the role of the godfather and godmother, who must be firm believers, able and ready to help the newly baptized - child or adult on the road of Christian life.55 Their task is a truly ecclesial function (officium).56 The whole ecclesial community bears some responsibility for the development and safeguarding of the grace given at Baptism.

55 Cf. CIC, cann. 872-874.
56 Cf. SC 67.

You were always a member of God’s Kingdom.

 

[MariaG]

I believe that a Catholic can be baptized as a baby, go to Church every Sunday all their lives, go to confession and the whole nine yards, but still never for a moment have been saved. In other words, do I believe that we are saved through an act of the flesh? No I do not.

First, Baptism is not an act of the flesh.

But this response shows that you apparently do not believe that in baptism one is regenerated? I am not sure since you did not come right out and answer it.

The Catholic Church does not teach that following the Rules will saves one, but we do believe if one follows the rules, the rules are there to bring one closer to Christ, and so they will in fact LEAD to salvation since they lead to Christ. One can always choose to do the right actions for the wrong reasons and end up in hell. Scripture does warn us that there will be those who call out “Lord, Lord” and He will not know them.

But the Sacraments are Gods miracles made visable. They are not acts of the flesh.

Some in here seem to believe that following some rules leads to salvation. I don’t (and particularly when some rules sprang forth without basis in, and are even contradicted by Scripture). Or that not following some rule excludes you from salvation even when a person has a circumcision of the heart. I don’t believe that either.

You would need to be more specific here.

Especially since IF one were to follow all the rules, understand the WHY of the rules, they do in fact LEAD one to salvation. Christ saves, but the rules of the church are there to lead one to Him.

As for which rules sprang forth without basis, again, you would need to be more specific, probably in their own thread. (Not that you HAVE to have my (name removed by moderator)ut, but unless you placed a link here in this thread, I probably would not see it since I have only been checking on currently subscribed threads with advent upon us.

And again, you would need to be more specific when you speak the not following the rules some will not be saved so again, you would need to be more specific. Everyone here has tried to present the fact that although we know that God chooses to save us through the sacraments set up by Christ made possible by His sacrifice, God is not limited to them.

A good book for folks in here would be “Peace Child” by Don Richardson. A great salvation story.

Respectfully, you keep bringing this up as if you do not believe people here are not currently walking in Grace with God. Or as if we could not share with you our wonderful moment when God touched our hearts as adults and we responded with a resounding YES!

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

A circumcision of the heart leads to following our Lord and Savior in obedience in the law. Baptism in water is part of that obedience when we are born again in the Spirit

And it is through baptism that our hearts are circumcized. We don’t circumcize our own hearts, God is the one who does the circumcizing. And we can either respond to that Grace or let the “foreskin” grow over our hearts and allow them to be hardened.

As we can see in scripture, even infants are capable of responding to Our Lord.

God Bless,
Maria