Are Catholics idolators? Two prominent Protestant theologians think so!

  • Thread starter Thread starter dennisknapp
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

dennisknapp

Guest
In their recent book titled “Correcting the Cults,” Norman Geisler and Ron Rhodes have this to say about the Catholic view the Eucharist and Eucharistic adoration.

“Many Protestants believe it (the Host) involves the worship of something which God-give senses of every normal human being informs them is a finite creation God, namely, bread and wine. It is to worship God under a physical image a form of worship that is clearly forbidden in the Ten Commandments (Exod. 20:4)”

So, we are worshiping a finite creation of God in voliation of Exodus 20:4 which says, “You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth.”…?

Is worshiping something with an image in voilation of Exod. 20:4?

What of Colossians 1:15 which says, “He (Christ) is the image of the invisible God”…?

Are we violating Exod. 20:4 by giving our worship to Christ?

It is Christ in the Eucharist that we worship, as it is God in the flesh that we worship.

Any thoughts?

Peace
 
Ummm, yeah.
I’m only 17, but i’ll try as best i can to explain.

Jesus said in John 6 that he will give us his body and blood to consume.
He did so through the institution of the Eucharist at his last supper.
We know this.

Consider an analogy.
Is it enough that we just tell our parental mothers that we love them?
No.
We show them physical signs of affection. Why should this be any different with God, if we have the means?

Jesus said that it is his body. The transubstination happens every mass. This commandment of God doesn’t really count in this case, because
(a) Jesus said it is his body, and Jesus is God, and
(b) We didn’t make the Eucharist Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, the Holy Spirit did, and the Holy Spirit is God.

Does this answer your question?
 
Nekić:
Ummm, yeah.
I’m only 17, but i’ll try as best i can to explain.

Jesus said in John 6 that he will give us his body and blood to consume.
He did so through the institution of the Eucharist at his last supper.
We know this.

Consider an analogy.
Is it enough that we just tell our parental mothers that we love them?
No.
We show them physical signs of affection. Why should this be any different with God, if we have the means?

Jesus said that it is his body. The transubstination happens every mass. This commandment of God doesn’t really count in this case, because
(a) Jesus said it is his body, and Jesus is God, and
(b) We didn’t make the Eucharist Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, the Holy Spirit did, and the Holy Spirit is God.

Does this answer your question?
Click to expand...
Great response, and you are only 17…? You will be a great thinker!

Yes, this is a good answer. I think their claim bits off more than it can chew. If Christ is the image of the invisible God and it is wrong to worship any image (Christ included) then it is wrong to worship Christ.

Exodus 20:4 does not say that God could not do this, that He could not chose to take on an image and therefore make a way for His presence in the Eucharist.

Peace
 
This is my opinion. Protestants say that the Consecrated Bread is not the Body of Christ, but only a symbol.

In short, what Protestants are saying is that Jesus violated the Commmandment against graven images because a symbol is a graven image in Protestant Theology.

In Protestant Theology, the bread and wine in their church services are never turned into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. The bread and wine are simply turned into symbols for the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

Being symbols for God, these are graven images in Protestant Theology.

And Protestants in their Church Services are EATING AND DRINKING WHAT IN THEIR PROTESTANT THEOLOGY ARE GRAVEN IMAGES OF GOD.

Now, this might not apply to all kinds of Protestant Churches because some of them do have pictures of Christ and perhaps even pictures of saints. But most of them I see on TV, their churches have no statues, no pictures, and their crosses have no Corpus. That’s an indication that they view symbols as graven images.
Note: Bread Consecrated by a Catholic Priest becomes the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ.

I don’t think Protestant Pastors are authorized to consecrate bread into the Body Blood Soul Divinity of Christ.

In both cases, Protestants believe that the bread is just a symbol of the Body of Christ.
.
 
The Eurasian:
This is my opinion. Protestants say that the Consecrated Bread is not the Body of Christ, but only a symbol.

In short, what Protestants are saying is that Jesus violated the Commmandment against graven images because a symbol is a graven image in Protestant Theology.

In Protestant Theology, the bread and wine in their church services are never turned into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. The bread and wine are simply turned into symbols for the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

Being symbols for God, these are graven images in Protestant Theology.

And Protestants in their Church Services are EATING AND DRINKING WHAT IN THEIR PROTESTANT THEOLOGY ARE GRAVEN IMAGES OF GOD.

Now, this might not apply to all kinds of Protestant Churches because some of them do have pictures of Christ and perhaps even pictures of saints. But most of them I see on TV, their churches have no statues, no pictures, and their crosses have no Corpus. That’s an indication that they view symbols as graven images.
Note: Bread Consecrated by a Catholic Priest becomes the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ.

I don’t think Protestant Pastors are authorized to consecrate bread into the Body Blood Soul Divinity of Christ.

In both cases, Protestants believe that the bread is just a symbol of the Body of Christ.
.
Click to expand...
This is incorrect as protestants are not worshipping the communion bread and wine.
 
To not worship the Eucharist is to reject Christ…walk away as many of his disciples did when Jesus taught that his body was real food.

Bob
 
If I was a Protestant (hmmm :hmmm: never going to happen) I would see worship of a Catholic piece of bread idolatry. From my dialogue with them, they know we take communion serious but do not actually know that we worship the Eucharist.
 
Quite frankly, I don’t give a rat’s behind what any Protestant theologians think !!! :whacky:

Pardon my French.
 
40.png
UBERROGO:
This is incorrect as protestants are not worshipping the communion bread and wine.
Click to expand...
Exactly!!! Protestants do not worship nor adore the bread and wine which they are eating and drinking in their church services because to them these are ONLY SYMBOLS FOR GOD.

But in Protestant Theology, the CORPUS on a crucifix is a GRAVEN IMAGE. As such, I say to them that IN THEIR PROTESTANT THEOLOGY, THE BREAD AND WINE IN THEIR CHURCH SERVICES ARE ALSO GRAVEN IMAGES.

So from the point of Protestant way of looking at graven images, IT SHOULD BE A HORROR FOR PROTESTANTS TO REALIZE THAT IN THEIR THEOLOGY THEY ARE EATING AND DRINKING WHAT TO THEM ARE GRAVEN IMAGES OF GOD!!!
I’m just trying to show that the Protestant belief that the Consecrated Bread is only a symbol is erroneous. That’s why they end up with things such as eating what to them are graven images. This kind of proving their errors by showing results such as this is like the various early models of the atom in physics or the flat earth model of the earth. The earlier models of the atom and the flat earth model WERE ALL DISCARDED ONCE NEW DISCOVERIES PROVED THEM WRONG!!!
 
So, 2 prominent Protestant theologians think we are idolators, huh? Well, this Catholic thinks that they are heretics. :eek: I like where I am comming from much better than where they are comming from.
 
The Eurasian:
a symbol is a graven image in Protestant Theology.
Click to expand...
Since this is not true, your entire argument collapses.

Also, whether or not Protestants think the Eucharist is “just a symbol” depends on which Protestants we’re talking about and exactly what we mean by “symbol.”

Edwin
 
40.png
dennisknapp:
If Christ is the image of the invisible God and it is wrong to worship any image (Christ included) then it is wrong to worship Christ
Click to expand...
Yes, I think that this is the key. It is quite true that God in the old testament did forbid any images being made of Him.

The Israelites probably thought that in making the golden calf they were making an image of Yahweh. But God would not allow any attempts at portraying Him in images. He was teaching not only monotheism but that God in his essence cannot be imaged.

But in the new covenant, what did God do? He sent His Son in human form to become man and offer the perfect sacrifice. Now, the Word, as man, actually had a body. He could be imaged.

So if protestants continue to take this OT command seriously, they cannot worship Christ in human form. Thomas would have been wrong to drop to his knees and say to Jesus “My Lord and my God!”

The only reason that our adoration of the Eucharistic host is not idolatry is that we do not worship the appearances of bread and wine, but the reality of Christ which is hidden beneath the appearances.
 
These guys have err’d off the very top by rejecting the Eucharist to start with. The Biblical evidence of the Eucharist is far more compelling than any case that I’ve ever heard against it from n-Cs. This thread on the Eucharist offers a good exploration of the Biblical truth on the Eucharist

My own opinion is that those who reject the Eucharist choose to do so, the same way those in John 6 did.

For a discussion of allegations of Catholic idolatry . This thread explores iconoclasm.
Pax vobiscum,
 
40.png
JimG:
But in the new covenant, what did God do? He sent His Son in human form to become man and offer the perfect sacrifice. Now, the Word, as man, actually had a body. He could be imaged.

So if protestants continue to take this OT command seriously, they cannot worship Christ in human form. Thomas would have been wrong to drop to his knees and say to Jesus “My Lord and my God!”

The only reason that our adoration of the Eucharistic host is not idolatry is that we do not worship the appearances of bread and wine, but the reality of Christ which is hidden beneath the appearances.
Click to expand...
Bread when Consecrated by a CATHOLIC PRIEST is no longer bread but God, BODY BLOOD SOUL AND DIVINITY. YES, EACH AND EVERY PARTICLE OF THE CATHOLIC PRIEST CONSECRATED BREAD! ! ! !. IT IS NOT IDOLATRY TO ADORE AND WORSHIP THE CONSECRATED BREAD BECAUSE THE CONSECRATED BREAD IS GOD.

Google -------- “eucharistic miracle” lanciano negri --------
 
There are Protestants (probably most) who are sensible enough to realize that if Catholics really believe that the Eucharist is our God and Savior Jesus Christ; body, blood, soul and divinity (and we do), then we are obviously not committing the sin of idolatry by worshipping it (Him).

As an analogy, if Protestants saw Jesus come down from heaven and they fell prostrate in worship of Him, they would not be committing the sin of idolatry regardless of whether others thought the event was authentic or not.
 
God can be in several Catholic priest Consecrated Bread SIMULTANEOUSLY just like in the Decent of the Holy Spirit upon SEVERAL APOSTLES SIMULTANEOUSLY. In connection with this, google — “padre pio” bi-location.

Below is a link on Padre Pio’s bi-location. See Note #2 at right of article. See also PARAGRAPH #18 which describes Padre Pio’s BI-LOCATION.

forteantimes.com/articles/162_padrepio.shtml
 
Imagine Jesus saying…

…insert tab “a” into slot “b” and you’ll have a complete product. Trust me; it’ll be awesome. You have no idea what I’m giving you and how great it’s gonna be.

Yes, that’s right; tab “a” into slot “b”… Don’t look at me like that, insert tab “a” into slot “b”. It won’t work any other way! !!! What? Tab “c”???, there is no tab “c” only tab “a”!

Look folks, for the LAST time; insert TAB “A” into SLOT “B”. MY GIFT WILL WORTHLESS IF YOU DON’T DO AS I SAY! I REALLY want you to have this! You NEED this. You CAN’T live without it!

WHAT!? You can’t accept that? Okay! Fine! Just walk way… LOSERS!

Well, how 'bout you guys? Y’all wanna take off too? Peter?

Where are we gonna go? Nobody else HAS tab “a”.
 
The Eucharist is the Catholic belief in God as a real, living presence. Remember that the transubstantiation is when the bread and wine is literally, not allegedly, changed into the body and blood of Christ. That is the fact of the Catholic belief. When protestants speak of idolatry they don’t understand that Catholics don’t worship statues, but Catholics see these religious statues as windows to the spiritual world. Now, the #1 question that the protestants have is, Why do Catholics worship Mary? For one thing that is what we don’t do is worship Mary. Catholics honor her. Catholics understand the difference between worship and honor. Most protestants don’t understand it. Mary is the closest person to Jesus, he is his mother. Protestnants see Mary of having no significance. I have this Question to all protestants. Do you look at your mother who carried you and cared for you of having no significance? If it was not for Mary there would be no Jesus right? She was born Imaculate, with no sin. Not to honor her is to deny God of his very being. The body and blood of Christ is held in a taburnacle in the Church, is Mary not the mother of the Church and was she not the first person (taburnacle) to hold Jesus? There are many questions that protestants have about the Catholic Church. As Catholics we should answer them, so that they may fully understand the Catholic faith.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top