Are Catholics "out of touch?"

[mikeburris]

jerry mac – studied in stubenvill in the 60’s at he catholic university and said hey did not teach he priests " How and what and when " to walk in thePower o the Holy Spirit-

hey were just taugh “Dogma” this is why the Charasmetic catholic renewel did not function well

and any one can see that tis is still true --today-- catholic priests do no know how to hear - or unction in the 9 spiritual gifts

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[Hockeygurl]

Of course not. I think we all get overly self-conscious in church. After all what would they think if??? This reminds me of a story. When I was young 13 or so, my mother, father, sister and myself used to march our way to the 2nd pew from the front. We had an elderly neighbor who was a retired pastor and his wife that would sit directly in front of us.

One day, my sister and I got the “giggles”… we literally could NOT stop… pastor’s wife in front of us kept giving us the DIRTIEST looks… which made us laugh (quietly) even harder. We eventually stopped looking up altogether at the urging of my mother (who was probably MORTIFIED).

What surprised me was that after the service pastor’s wife made a comment and my dad politely responded something about joy during church, how it is a natural thing and maybe sometimes we don’t have to be all straight faced, sour-pusses. And something else about the music of children laughing is a gift to god. She turned around and walked away.

I mean…people fart in church… that’s a fact. I just think there needs to be a balance between reverence and expressing our joy…some laughter, smiling … this is what I would like to see more of. I don’t think it would take anything away from the service.

 

[Cat]

To me, being “out of touch” means that we are not engaged with our culture or willing to roll up our sleeves and get involved with those who are outside of our Church.

I’m a convert from Evangelical Protestantism to the Catholic Church, and I would say that many Catholics are very much in touch with popular and secular culture, and are often the first ones to help out with worthy endeavors.

I would say it is the Evangelical Protestants who tend to be “out of touch.” Many of these Christians live in “Christian-only fortresses” that they have created.

In these fortresses, they do not watch or read or listen to any secular media, avoid all secular art, music, and theater, do not get involved with secular sports or other recreational activities that bring them into close contact with non-Christians, and strive to avoid buying any products that have any connection with secular companies.

They homeschool, or attend only Christian schools

Many of these Christians not only abstain totally from alcohol (which I still adhere to, BTW), but also from caffeine. They decorate their homes with “Christian” products and artwork, and read only Christian books and novels, and listen only to “Christian music” and only see plays and movies that are overtly “Christian.”

They generally don’t get involved with political activities, as these bring them into close contact with non-Christians.

Many of them strive to find jobs that enable them to work independently of others and not be involved with non-Christians.

In other words, they have created what they think is “heaven on earth.”

Once in a while, they will venture out of the fortress to “witness” to the unsaved. Inevitably, they will meet up with objections or even derision, and then they will scurry back into the fortress, slam the door, and give testimony to being “persecuted.”

Many of these Christians are kind people who truly do love Jesus and want to serve Him, but they don’t mix, and so they are socially-awkward when they do emerge into popular culture, and so it’s difficult for them to be “witnesses” of their faith.

Needless to say, these Christians sometimes have difficulty hanging onto their children, who tend to rebel rather spectacularly when they get the chance to break free of the fortress. I knew one family where the oldest daughter was as sweet as an angel while she lived at home, but the day she turned 18, she moved out of her parents’ house and moved IN with her boyfriend (the family didn’t even know she had a boyfriend).

Now don’t get me wrong–I think there is a definite place for sequestered Christians–those who live away from the world and spend their time praying for all the rest of the Christians who live outside the fortress. I admire many of these Christians because they truly do try to live pious and holy lives and avoid all worldly contamination.

But…Jesus made it clear that we are to walk and talk with those who do not agree with us. He is our Example!

I do see Catholics who live like these Evangelical Protestants, in a Catholic “fortress” that they are creating. But I see a lot more Catholics who are very much involved and engaged with culture and who work alongside of non-Christians and are salt and light to them. So IMO, Catholics are not “out of touch.”

 

[Peebo]

Out of touch with the ways of the world
In touch with the ways of God.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Now don’t get me wrong–I think there is a definite place for sequestered Christians–those who live away from the world and spend their time praying for all the rest of the Christians who live outside the fortress. I admire many of these Christians because they truly do try to live pious and holy lives and avoid all worldly contamination.

If you want a solution, might I suggest actually minimizing the use of the word ‘contamination’ when describing any perspective that veers off (slightly or greatly) from what the Faith teaches.

I’ve seen plenty of people who post on these boards claiming that snubbing the so-called ‘world’ has made them better as Christians. If that’s what makes them happy, maybe they’re right in their decision.

Forgive me though if this wayward wanderer has now found it officially off-putting. Sometimes I wonder if these people ever considered the possibility that those who enjoy life outside the fortress have a purpose that makes them just as vital as those inside it.

 

[Cat]

If you want a solution, might I suggest actually minimizing the use of the word ‘contamination’ when describing any perspective that veers off (slightly or greatly) from what the Faith teaches.

I’ve seen plenty of people who post on these boards claiming that snubbing the so-called ‘world’ has made them better as Christians. If that’s what makes them happy, maybe they’re right in their decision.

Forgive me though if this wayward wanderer has now found it officially off-putting. Sometimes I wonder if these people ever considered the possibility that those who enjoy life outside the fortress have a purpose that makes them just as vital as those inside it.

I absolutely agree with you.

I’m only using the word that I have heard many times from “fortress” Christians. Yes, I agree, it’s harsh, although the Bible does use the word over and over again, especially in the Old Testament.

I work in a microbiology lab, and to me, “contamination” has a very real meaning. When a microbiological culture is contaminated, it is useless. We have to throw it away and start over.

So I can understand why Christians do not want to be “contaminated” and become useless. The problem is, what exactly does it mean for a Christian to be “contaminated?” To me, being informed about the issues in the “world” and befriending others who are not Christians is not “contamination.” I think it’s important for Christians to thoroughly understand the world and to empathize with non-Christians.

 

[PJM]

=Cat;11943246]To me, being “out of touch” means that we are not engaged with our culture or willing to roll up our sleeves and get involved with those who are outside of our Church.

I’m a convert from Evangelical Protestantism to the Catholic Church, and I would say that many Catholics are very much in touch with popular and secular culture, and are often the first ones to help out with worthy endeavors.

I would say it is the Evangelical Protestants who tend to be “out of touch.” Many of these Christians live in “Christian-only fortresses” that they have created.

In these fortresses, they do not watch or read or listen to any secular media, avoid all secular art, music, and theater, do not get involved with secular sports or other recreational activities that bring them into close contact with non-Christians, and strive to avoid buying any products that have any connection with secular companies.

They homeschool, or attend only Christian schools

Many of these Christians not only abstain totally from alcohol (which I still adhere to, BTW), but also from caffeine. They decorate their homes with “Christian” products and artwork, and read only Christian books and novels, and listen only to “Christian music” and only see plays and movies that are overtly “Christian.”

They generally don’t get involved with political activities, as these bring them into close contact with non-Christians.

Many of them strive to find jobs that enable them to work independently of others and not be involved with non-Christians.

In other words, they have created what they think is “heaven on earth.”

Once in a while, they will venture out of the fortress to “witness” to the unsaved. Inevitably, they will meet up with objections or even derision, and then they will scurry back into the fortress, slam the door, and give testimony to being “persecuted.”

Many of these Christians are kind people who truly do love Jesus and want to serve Him, but they don’t mix, and so they are socially-awkward when they do emerge into popular culture, and so it’s difficult for them to be “witnesses” of their faith.

Needless to say, these Christians sometimes have difficulty hanging onto their children, who tend to rebel rather spectacularly when they get the chance to break free of the fortress. I knew one family where the oldest daughter was as sweet as an angel while she lived at home, but the day she turned 18, she moved out of her parents’ house and moved IN with her boyfriend (the family didn’t even know she had a boyfriend).

Now don’t get me wrong–I think there is a definite place for sequestered Christians–those who live away from the world and spend their time praying for all the rest of the Christians who live outside the fortress. I admire many of these Christians because they truly do try to live pious and holy lives and avoid all worldly contamination.

But…Jesus made it clear that we are to walk and talk with those who do not agree with us. He is our Example!

I do see Catholics who live like these Evangelical Protestants, in a Catholic “fortress” that they are creating. But I see a lot more Catholics who are very much involved and engaged with culture and who work alongside of non-Christians and are salt and light to them. So IMO, Catholics are not “out of touch.”

Thank you, and welcome Home!

 

[Protestor]

No, in that most of the RCC that I have come in contact with is not tied done to the young earth creationism. I have come across a lot of these kinds of people but non of them are catholic, and after Ken Ham got trounced there was a lot of bad press for Christianity.

Yes, I don’t know if your view on contraceptives has changed but I think it is out of touch with society.

 

[PJM]

=Protestor;11951236]No, in that most of the RCC that I have come in contact with is not tied done to the young earth creationism. I have come across a lot of these kinds of people but non of them are catholic, and after Ken Ham got trounced there was a lot of bad press for Christianity.

Yes, I don’t know if your view on contraceptives has changed but I think it is out of touch with society.

This friend is a “teaching moment”

The CC gets blamed “for everything” and seeminly credited for little to nothong. And thats OK!

But views such as suggested on Contraceptions are NOT some CC inovation. It;s God’s Idea, because God alone desires to control ALL life and death issues.

Here is what God thinks about this abhorant practice:

The First and most common contraceptive practice:

**Genesis 38: 6-9 **"And Juda took a wife for Her his firstborn, whose name was Thamar. [7] And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him. [8] Juda, therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother’ s wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother. [9] He knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother’ s wife, spilled his seed upon the ground, lest children should be born in his brother’ s name. [10] And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing

So friends one risk their very Soul in doing do.

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[Protestor]

This friend is a “teaching moment”

But views such as suggested on Contraceptions are NOT some CC inovation. It;s God’s Idea, because God alone desires to control ALL life and death issues.

So friends one risk their very Soul in doing do.
Patrick

How do I send away for the catholic decoder ring for the bible is there an app?

God told him specifically to do something and he purposefully disobeyed God because it was not going to benefit him. That is how I would interpret that. As far as I know Jews are not against contraception. They don’t accept condoms for whatever reason, but they are fine with the pill.

You wanted to know where you are out of touch with society and I told you. I am not even blaming you I was just answering your question. So there is no need for the melodramatics. I even stated the point which the CC is in touch first.

 

[PJM]

=Protestor;11954388]How do I send away for the catholic decoder ring for the bible is there an app?

God told him specifically to do something and he purposefully disobeyed God because it was not going to benefit him. That is how I would interpret that. As far as I know Jews are not against contraception. They don’t accept condoms for whatever reason, but they are fine with the pill.

You wanted to know where you are out of touch with society and I told you. I am not even blaming you I was just answering your question. So there is no need for the melodramatics. I even stated the point which the CC is in touch first.

I know I promised not to share secrets BUT

here are three key’s:

[1] If your understanding FULLY conforms to that of the RCC your gor it right. “If not change it”]

[2] There is a "infallible Rule to guide right understanding. Here it is [caps for emphasis; not shouting]

Never- ever
Can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching
Have the power or authority
to:
Invalidate, VOID, or override
ANOTHER
Verse, psaage or teaching
Were this even the slighest possibility [its NOT]
It would render the entire bible as worthless to teach or learn God’s One true Faith:thumbsup:

[3] If in doubt post it here on the Forum. There are some very competent folks here.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[Protestor]

I know I promised not to share secrets BUT
God Bless you,
Patrick

I know that you live in some perfect world, but I know one catholic who agrees with the catholic church completely. Granted I only know about 50 catholics. I did some quick googling because I wanted to see more on this subject so you may think these polls are misleading or wrong. I don’t know if during these poll they asked a more specific question like “do you support the use of contraception in cases where the mothers life is at risk if she becomes pregnant” So this I think comes under some double effect clause in catholicism". I did not read far enough to figure this out.

The poll done by Univision(univision.com/interactivos/openpage/2014-02-06/la-voz-del-pueblo-contraceptives) I can save you the trouble 82% of catholics support the use of contraception

The poll done by Gallup (gallup.com/poll/154799/americans-including-catholics-say-birth-control-morally.aspx) 79% believe that contraception is morally acceptable.

From these polls alone though I would say that the CC is out of touch with itself. In the univision poll they said that the people most likely to completely agree with the CC were married, over 55, and living in rural areas.

I think you are going a little extreme even out of your norm by saying “makes the entire bible worthless”. I don’t mind slipping in the back door, you know the one reserved for protestants. You can have your fun now saying “G-d’s one true faith” or “one true apostalic church”. I also think that you are overstepping by saying that infallibility is over ever teaching of the church. I am not really on this thread to discuss this so if you want to make another thread fine if you just want to respond this once fine but I am not going to discuss anything other than how the CC is out of touch on this thread.

 

[Z_Ninja]

I know that you live in some perfect world, but I know one catholic who agrees with the catholic church completely. Granted I only know about 50 catholics. I did some quick googling because I wanted to see more on this subject so you may think these polls are misleading or wrong. I don’t know if during these poll they asked a more specific question like “do you support the use of contraception in cases where the mothers life is at risk if she becomes pregnant” So this I think comes under some double effect clause in catholicism". I did not read far enough to figure this out.

The poll done by Univision(univision.com/interactivos/openpage/2014-02-06/la-voz-del-pueblo-contraceptives) I can save you the trouble 82% of catholics support the use of contraception

The poll done by Gallup (gallup.com/poll/154799/americans-including-catholics-say-birth-control-morally.aspx) 79% believe that contraception is morally acceptable.

From these polls alone though I would say that the CC is out of touch with itself. In the univision poll they said that the people most likely to completely agree with the CC were married, over 55, and living in rural areas.

I think you are going a little extreme even out of your norm by saying “makes the entire bible worthless”. I don’t mind slipping in the back door, you know the one reserved for protestants. You can have your fun now saying “G-d’s one true faith” or “one true apostalic church”. I also think that you are overstepping by saying that infallibility is over ever teaching of the church. I am not really on this thread to discuss this so if you want to make another thread fine if you just want to respond this once fine but I am not going to discuss anything other than how the CC is out of touch on this thread.

With regard to the poll, does that include those Catholics who use NFP as a form of birth control? Considering NFP can be seen as a form of contraception, as you said, we don’t know what question was specifically asked. There are numerous ways to skew numbers just in the way a question is asked.

As far as being out of touch, why must the Church in its over 2000 year history all of a sudden conform to what society thinks is acceptable. How does the quote go? Something like, “the truth remains the truth even if no one believes it, and a lie remains a lie even if everyone believes it”

 

[Protestor]

As far as being out of touch, why must the Church in its over 2000 year history all of a sudden conform to what society thinks is acceptable. How does the quote go? Something like, “the truth remains the truth even if no one believes it, and a lie remains a lie even if everyone believes it”

Original post “Dear freind in Chirst,Do you think that we Catholics are out of touch? If so, HOW?”

I am just answering the original question of the thread. I guess, I could address wether or not it is bad for a church to be out of touch in the first place. I do not think it is a bad thing for the church to be counter cultural.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Considering current trends one might ask is the world out of touch with reality. It appears to me that, to quote an old country song, We are Going Ninety Miles an Hour Down a Dead End Street.

 

[marywarfield]

I know that you live in some perfect world, but I know one catholic who agrees with the catholic church completely. Granted I only know about 50 catholics. I did some quick googling because I wanted to see more on this subject so you may think these polls are misleading or wrong. I don’t know if during these poll they asked a more specific question like “do you support the use of contraception in cases where the mothers life is at risk if she becomes pregnant” So this I think comes under some double effect clause in catholicism". I did not read far enough to figure this out.

The poll done by Univision(univision.com/interactivos/openpage/2014-02-06/la-voz-del-pueblo-contraceptives) I can save you the trouble 82% of catholics support the use of contraception

The poll done by Gallup (gallup.com/poll/154799/americans-including-catholics-say-birth-control-morally.aspx) 79% believe that contraception is morally acceptable.

From these polls alone though I would say that the CC is out of touch with itself. In the univision poll they said that the people most likely to completely agree with the CC were married, over 55, and living in rural areas.

I think you are going a little extreme even out of your norm by saying “makes the entire bible worthless”. I don’t mind slipping in the back door, you know the one reserved for protestants. You can have your fun now saying “G-d’s one true faith” or “one true apostalic church”. I also think that you are overstepping by saying that infallibility is over ever teaching of the church. I am not really on this thread to discuss this so if you want to make another thread fine if you just want to respond this once fine but I am not going to discuss anything other than how the CC is out of touch on this thread.

I would give credence to the polls you cite except for
glaring mistake- what kind?

If the poll had asked is using Artificial Birth Control
morally acceptable the percentage would be lower.

In the Catholic Church birth control for certain
is morally acceptable. Using ABC, sterilization,
vasectomies, abortion etc are not acceptable.

So in so far as any Catholics answering the poll the
question was biased in favor of a positive result.

Now as to the thread the Church cannot change its
views based on social popularity of a behavior.
It is when the Church does NOT appear to be out of
touch with the world around we know we have a
problem, Houston.

 

[Dulcinea2721]

Dear freind in Chirst,

Do you think that** we Catholics** are out of touch? If so, HOW?

God Bless you,
Patrick

It is interesting that people are attempting to pull this thread back to its original post then discuss the CC. The original post did not ask if the CHURCH was out of touch but clearly asks if WE CATHOLICS are out of touch.

edited to add:

PS I think that there are many people who consider themselves “we Catholics” but do not abide by the teachings of the CC. ie. I do not have to go to church to be a good Catholic, I do not have to confess to a priest, Birth control is up to me, who cares is gay people want to marry etc etc etc. Are they in touch with secular culture but out of touch with the teachings of the CC?? I think so.

 

[Protestor]

It is interesting that people are attempting to pull this thread back to its original post then discuss the CC. The original post did not ask if the CHURCH was out of touch but clearly asks if WE CATHOLICS are out of touch.

edited to add:

PS I think that there are many people who consider themselves “we Catholics” but do not abide by the teachings of the CC. ie. I do not have to go to church to be a good Catholic, I do not have to confess to a priest, Birth control is up to me, who cares is gay people want to marry etc etc etc. Are they in touch with secular culture but out of touch with the teachings of the CC?? I think so.

Well I am not sure why this in the noncatholic religions section maybe you should have it moved to the traditional section. I would call myself catholic even though I am sure that many would not. I did not think that I was supposed to separate the policies from the people in the church. I do not see a difference between you and the church you belong to. You are members of a church where you have to submit to the churches view on a subject even if you disagree. So I am not quite sure what the difference between the CC and we catholics is/are. All my friends who are catholic are not out of touch with society. Even the one who completely agrees with the church isn’t. I am certainly not out of touch with society.

 

[Dulcinea2721]

Well I am not sure why this in the noncatholic religions section maybe you should have it moved to the traditional section. I would call myself catholic even though I am sure that many would not. I did not think that I was supposed to separate the policies from the people in the church. I do not see a difference between you and the church you belong to. You are members of a church where you have to submit to the churches view on a subject even if you disagree. So I am not quite sure what the difference between the CC and we catholics is/are. All my friends who are catholic are not out of touch with society. Even the one who completely agrees with the church isn’t. I am certainly not out of touch with society.

Are you saying that there is not a difference between the teachings of the CC and the individual people who would check the box “Catholic” in a survey?

I would differ on that point. Many people who are Catholic would not consider cohabitation (just one of many examples) sinful, they would argue that the CC is out of touch and that it is OK because we are in the 21st century. These same people would consider themselves as “we, Catholics”. The CC and the individual are not in agreement. Furthermore, usually the individual would not curb their behaviour because they abide by the teachings of the CC even though they are in disagreement.

Conversely, the CC, I believe is in touch with the fact that this secular thought is happening but is committed to holding fast to the teachings of Christ. Therefore I would say that the CC is in touch with secular culture but refuses to be led by it, whereas certain individuals who consider themselves “we, Catholics” are 1. out of touch with actual CC teachings on many subjects or 2. knowledgeable on the CC teaching but decide to defer to secularism somehow convincing themselves that the CC needs to catch up to THEM IOW the CC is out of touch.

 

[Protestor]

Are you saying that there is not a difference between the teachings of the CC and the individual people who would check the box “Catholic” in a survey?

I am not saying that all or even most of the people who say that they are christians are actually christians. I understand that a survey is a an imperfect way of finding out what people believe and or it puts them into general categories that they should not be in. I have said that those surveys are probably skewed. I know many catholics who have differing opinions but still submit to authority of the church and accept that they are probably wrong. When I say people I know that are Catholic I do not include people who will normally call themselves “nonpraticing catholics”.

Conversely, the CC, I believe is in touch with the fact that this secular thought is happening but is committed to holding fast to the teachings of Christ. Therefore I would say that the CC is in touch with secular culture but refuses to be led by it

I would say you are partially correct. I do not fully know but I think the CC(comprised of actual catholics, I really don’t think this should be necessary to say actual catholics) believes that condoms are morally wrong even in cases were it would prevent the spread of aids/hiv. I could be wrong but I believe that Pope Benedict XVI said something like condoms are not the answer to the spread of aids/hiv. I think that Christopher Hitchens speaks out vary frankly on this subject basically saying that the fact that the catholic church thinks that the condom is a greater problem then the spread of aids/hiv means that the church, and by extension all who believe she is correct, are out of touch with reality not just society. He also says something like giving women the pill so that they can control when they can get pregnant is one of the best ways to reduce poverty. I have been to South Africa twice on missions trips and the consensus is pretty much the same within the church that I worked with. Granted this church only had a sphere of influence in the whole of the cape town area, but nobody really disagreed with contraception on a moral level that I saw. I know that the CC thinks it is morally wrong, I know that the CC has quite a few quotes from the ECF’s. I do not know how condoms are not under the double effect (side effect) clause in cases that prevent the spread of a diseases like aid/hiv.

Maybe I just am defining this differently I do not think that because you know a societal convention means that you are in touch with it.

Hypothetical: Do you think that the Pope can declare ex-cathedrally that condoms are acceptable if it will stop or slow the spread of disease?