Are Catholics "out of touch?"

[Dulcinea2721]

I am not saying that all or even most of the people who say that they are christians are actually christians. I understand that a survey is a an imperfect way of finding out what people believe and or it puts them into general categories that they should not be in. I have said that those surveys are probably skewed. I know many catholics who have differing opinions but still submit to authority of the church and accept that they are probably wrong. When I say people I know that are Catholic I do not include people who will normally call themselves “nonpraticing catholics”.

I would say you are partially correct. I do not fully know but I think the CC(comprised of actual catholics, I really don’t think this should be necessary to say actual catholics) believes that condoms are morally wrong even in cases were it would prevent the spread of aids/hiv. I could be wrong but I believe that Pope Benedict XVI said something like condoms are not the answer to the spread of aids/hiv. I think that Christopher Hitchens speaks out vary frankly on this subject basically saying that the fact that the catholic church thinks that the condom is a greater problem then the spread of aids/hiv means that the church, and by extension all who believe she is correct, are out of touch with reality not just society. He also says something like giving women the pill so that they can control when they can get pregnant is one of the best ways to reduce poverty. I have been to South Africa twice on missions trips and the consensus is pretty much the same within the church that I worked with. Granted this church only had a sphere of influence in the whole of the cape town area, but nobody really disagreed with contraception on a moral level that I saw. I know that the CC thinks it is morally wrong, I know that the CC has quite a few quotes from the ECF’s. I do not know how condoms are not under the double effect (side effect) clause in cases that prevent the spread of a diseases like aid/hiv.

Maybe I just am defining this differently I do not think that because you know a societal convention means that you are in touch with it.

Hypothetical: Do you think that the Pope can declare ex-cathedrally that condoms are acceptable if it will stop or slow the spread of disease?

1. Pope Benedict XVI says that condoms are not the key to preventing the spread of aids and Christopher Hitchens opines that he is out of touch for making that comment…I for one do not assume that the Pope has his head in the sand wrt the aids crisis. I do believe that within the CC the teaching is quite clear that sexual relations are for the unity of a married couple and for procreation…

I do not believe that the Holy Father meant to say “hey people go have gratuitous sex but without condoms and you are good to go as far as the CC goes” which is what the media makes it out to be. I would interpret it more in the sense of If you STOP having gratuitous sex then your need for condoms decreases.

1. Your experience in Africa is a valid point which brings me back to the beginning , individuals and the CC are 2 different things. The teachings of the Church and the opinions of Catholics are often times different even if that person is in a position of authority.

Maybe the difference is this, you are interpreting the Catholic Church as the body of believers, whereas I am interpreting the Catholic Church as the institution founded by Jesus Christ with Pope Francis as his Vicar and the Magisterium who sets out the official teachings.

 

[PJM]

=Protestor;11960570]I know that you live in some perfect world, but I know one catholic who agrees with the catholic church completely. Granted I only know about 50 catholics. I did some quick googling because I wanted to see more on this subject so you may think these polls are misleading or wrong. I don’t know if during these poll they asked a more specific question like “do you support the use of contraception in cases where the mothers life is at risk if she becomes pregnant” So this I think comes under some double effect clause in catholicism". I did not read far enough to figure this out.

The poll done by Univision(univision.com/interactivos/openpage/2014-02-06/la-voz-del-pueblo-contraceptives) I can save you the trouble 82% of catholics support the use of contraception

The poll done by Gallup (gallup.com/poll/154799/americans-including-catholics-say-birth-control-morally.aspx) 79% believe that contraception is morally acceptable.

From these polls alone though I would say that the CC is out of touch with itself. In the univision poll they said that the people most likely to completely agree with the CC were married, over 55, and living in rural areas.

I think you are going a little extreme even out of your norm by saying “makes the entire bible worthless”. I don’t mind slipping in the back door, you know the one reserved for protestants. You can have your fun now saying “G-d’s one true faith” or “one true apostalic church”. I also think that you are overstepping by saying that infallibility is over ever teaching of the church. I am not really on this thread to discuss this so if you want to make another thread fine if you just want to respond this once fine but I am not going to discuss anything other than how the CC is out of touch on this thread.

My dear FRIEND

The polls mean LESS tahn nothing!

Either God is in Charge or we ARE and the responsibility can’t be shared.

God NEVER permiithed popular opinions to sway His TRUTH. Nor does the RCC. The Church could not have lasted 2,000 years by dippig and swaying to the music of secular cultures.

I KNOW its popular; and I KNOW its a Mortla sin:thumbsup:

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[Protestor]

Thanks Dulcinea, I never thought of it that way I understand although I normally wouldn’t think of it the way that you do.

PJM I am glad that it is worth less than nothing. Maybe we can take it’s absolute value or take it’s square root and it can do interesting or imaginary things for us.

Would either of you or anyone else like to answer my hypothetical question. Do you think that the Pope can declare ex-cathedrally that condoms are acceptable if it will stop or slow the spread of disease?

I am not trying to trap you with it I just think that if you believe that it is possible for the Pope to declare condoms as moral under the double effect clause or any other clause. Then there should currently be no real opinion on the matter, because the TRUTH(I did this just for you PJM :whackadoo of the matter has not been revealed. Did a former a council or pope say that condoms do not or cannot fall under the clause of double effect in the case of spreading aids/hiv?

In case you were wondering to which truth I am referring it is G-d’s: one, singular, incomparable, distinctive, apostolic, unique, extraordinary truth which he is revealing through the one and only true apostolic church:thumbsup:

Editing please excuse my trolling you a bit I couldn’t help it. I swear to take this more seriously in my next post

 

[PJM]

=Dulcinea2721;11963045]It is interesting that people are attempting to pull this thread back to its original post then discuss the CC. The original post did not ask if the CHURCH was out of touch but clearly asks if WE CATHOLICS are out of touch.

edited to add:

PS I think that there are many people who consider themselves “we Catholics” but do not abide by the teachings of the CC. ie. I do not have to go to church to be a good Catholic, I do not have to confess to a priest, Birth control is up to me, who cares is gay people want to marry etc etc etc. Are they in touch with secular culture but out of touch with the teachings of the CC?? I think so.

MY GOOF:blush:

As the OP

By we Catholics I do means to include the RCC:thumbsup:.

VERY nicely done
; thank you,
Patrick

 

[Dulcinea2721]

Thanks Dulcinea, I never thought of it that way I understand although I normally wouldn’t think of it the way that you do.

PJM I am glad that it is worth less than nothing. Maybe we can take it’s absolute value or take it’s square root and it can do interesting or imaginary things for us.

Would either of you or anyone else like to answer my hypothetical question. Do you think that the Pope can declare ex-cathedrally that condoms are acceptable if it will stop or slow the spread of disease?

I am not trying to trap you with it I just think that if you believe that it is possible for the Pope to declare condoms as moral under the double effect clause or any other clause. Then there should currently be no real opinion on the matter, because the TRUTH(I did this just for you PJM :whackadoo of the matter has not been revealed. Did a former a council or pope say that condoms do not or cannot fall under the clause of double effect in the case of spreading aids/hiv?

In case you were wondering to which truth I am referring it is G-d’s: one, singular, incomparable, distinctive, apostolic, unique, extraordinary truth which he is revealing through the one and only true apostolic church:thumbsup:

Editing please excuse my trolling you a bit I couldn’t help it. I swear to take this more seriously in my next post

As for the above question, I do not have enough knowledge to answer. My thought is this, if this declaration did not fly in the face of other established teachings then yes he could.

If such a declaration ever came, I would fully expect it to be in the same confines as with all questions relating to sex. Sex is between 2 married people, one man and one woman, for the purpose of procreation and unity.

It would be similar to the BCP issue. A woman can in fact be on the BCP if it is for a health reason (excessive life threatening bleeding for example) sanctioned by a doctor not for the reason of preventing birth.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I respectfully disagree. The Catholic faithful are more and more becoming victims of secular society; through entertainment, advertising, social engineering and this notion that anything goes as long as it makes you happy.

The Church may need to be sympathetic to the people, but not to the point of sanctioning it. Like the child who says “Mommy and Daddy don’t love me because they won’t let me play in the street.” Of course, Mommy and Daddy do love their child and draw boundaries to keep the child safe." The child though, doesn’t always understand this.

Likewise the Church has its rules to ensure the spiritual well-being of its flock. If anything, she needs to drive that message home to the congregation. Maybe just a different approach is needed to get the point across.

:clapping:

 

[Protestor]

As for the above question, I do not have enough knowledge to answer. My thought is this, if this declaration did not fly in the face of other established teachings then yes he could.

If such a declaration ever came, I would fully expect it to be in the same confines as with all questions relating to sex. Sex is between 2 married people, one man and one woman, for the purpose of procreation and unity.

It would be similar to the BCP issue. A woman can in fact be on the BCP if it is for a health reason (excessive life threatening bleeding for example) sanctioned by a doctor not for the reason of preventing birth.

Great, I think we are in agreement. I am happy this does not often happen here.

I think if it is possible that the CC or we catholics need to get out the message that we are christians. I have come across three people from three different churches(actual denominations not just nondenom) who said they did not believe catholics were christians. I assume that their church taught them this, and it is astonishing. The catholics (people and church) gets a bad reputation among evangelicals in general. They are used to seeing a churches that have different or bad teachings and just writing it off as not actually being christian so they have done the same with the CC.

 

[delbertdeleo]

Dear freind in Chirst,

Do you think that we Catholics are out of touch? If so, HOW?

God Bless you,
Patrick

I very much valued your reaction to the Archdiocese of Cincinnati’s barbaric values stipulation. (“Morality stipulation has nothing to do with morality,” Apr 1). It encapsulates what it indicates to be Catholic in The united states nowadays, where our bishops are out of contact with the daily lifestyles of Catholics. We know that 99 % of if perhaps you are Catholic females have used a way of contraception method prohibited by the Vatican. We know that Catholics are lgbt and that Catholics have abortions at the same amount as other People in the united states.

 

[marywarfield]

I very much valued your reaction to the Archdiocese of Cincinnati’s barbaric values stipulation. (“Morality stipulation has nothing to do with morality,” Apr 1). It encapsulates what it indicates to be Catholic in The united states nowadays, where our bishops are out of contact with the daily lifestyles of Catholics. We know that 99 % of if perhaps you are Catholic females have used a way of contraception method prohibited by the Vatican. We know that Catholics are lgbt and that Catholics have abortions at the same amount as other People in the united states.

Actually no we don’t “know” this and it is
irrelevant as well.
The fact that Catholis sin does not mean the Bishops
should alter the Ten Commandments to make it a
virtue to sin.
That is absurd.
The fact that people murder at an astonishing rate
is not an indicator murder should be legalised or
considered a holy behavior.

 

[delbertdeleo]

Yeah may be you are right, but i cannot agree with you

 

[Brendan_64]

As far as being out of touch, why must the Church in its over 2000 year history all of a sudden conform to what society thinks is acceptable. How does the quote go? Something like, “the truth remains the truth even if no one believes it, and a lie remains a lie even if everyone believes it”

I agree with that. Why is it that this particular century is so special that the Church change its teachings to conform more to the views of the world around it? Why is this century more special than the previous 19 centuries?

It’s as well the early Church didn’t conform to the views of the Roman world around it? Although that would have been more popular with the wider society at the time, a lot more convenient for individual Christians and saved a lot of them from being put to death.

The Church stuck to her unchanging teachings and eventually a hostile Roman empire conformed itself to the Church, and not the other way round. The same thing will happen again, we just need to stand firm.

The fact that Catholis sin does not mean the Bishops should alter the Ten Commandments to make it a virtue to sin. That is absurd.

Next they’ll be wanting the Church to decide on teachings on faith and morals by having individual Catholics cast a vote to decide what the Church teachings should be. But wait a minute, there’s a seemingly growing group of ‘catholics’ in the UK (called ACTA) that want just that, and sadly they seem to have the support of a few bishops They will ultimately fail, but not before they wreak havoc in the Church in the UK, leading naive souls astray.

 

[oldburkes]

Actually no we don’t “know” this and it is
irrelevant as well.
The fact that Catholis sin does not mean the Bishops
should alter the Ten Commandments to make it a
virtue to sin.
That is absurd.
The fact that people murder at an astonishing rate
is not an indicator murder should be legalised or
considered a holy behavior.

Thank you, marywarfield. Well said.

 

[MichaelinMD]

Actually no we don’t “know” this and it is
irrelevant as well.
The fact that Catholis sin does not mean the Bishops
should alter the Ten Commandments to make it a
virtue to sin.
That is absurd.
The fact that people murder at an astonishing rate
is not an indicator murder should be legalised or
considered a holy behavior.

The great St. Augustine of Hippo put it this way:
“Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.”

 

[MichaelinMD]

Yeah may be you are right, but i cannot agree with you

If your post is a reply to marywarfield’s immediately preceding it…

If she’s right (and she is), how can you not agree? To disagree with what is right is to, quite obviously, be wrong. You want to be wrong???

 

[PJM]

=delbertdeleo;11970611]I very much valued your reaction to the Archdiocese of Cincinnati’s barbaric values stipulation. (“Morality stipulation has nothing to do with morality,” Apr 1). It encapsulates what it indicates to be Catholic in The united states nowadays, where our bishops are out of contact with the daily lifestyles of Catholics. We know that 99 % of if perhaps you are Catholic females have used a way of contraception method prohibited by the Vatican. We know that Catholics are lgbt and that Catholics have abortions at the same amount as other People in the united states.

So you figured out that we Catholics are sinners TOO!

Might has never been right, truth does not depend on popular opinions. What is GRAVELT sinful IS Gravely sinful. Amen!

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[joe371]

The church will always be “counter cultural” so to speak, because it goes against the ways of the world.

So if the Catholic Church were ever viewed as “in touch”, that’s the time to worry!

 

[joe371]

The Catholic Church may be more “in touch” than any other western communion on the issue of morals.
Jon

Hey Jon, and that is even more true if the Holy Spirit continues to guide and preserve the teachings of Jesus within His church, as they relate to faith and morals. If I did not believe that God was invisibly and ineffably guiding the whole process, I wouldn’t know where to belong.

 

[Brendan_64]

How do I send away for the catholic decoder ring for the bible is there an app?

Yes there is.

play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=br.com.hsti.caten

 

[Protestor]

Yes there is.

Thanks for sending me to the google play store. How did you know that I am an android user? It does cost a dollar and has really bad reviews but thanks.

 

[Brendan_64]

Thanks for sending me to the google play store. How did you know that I am an android user? It does cost a dollar and has really bad reviews but thanks.

You’re welcome, always happy to help out.