Are Catholics still forbidden from becoming Communists

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Dakota_Roberts said:
social democrats (Labour, PS, SPOE)≠socialists
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Depends what political party. The Social Democratic Party in Germany is no longer socialist/social democrat (since 1959?), but originally they were. Because a social democrat’s end goal is to have no private property
actually all of those dictators you mentioned were state socialists (something i dont support). state socialism is akin to capitalism, in the fact that under both systems, all the wealth gets concentrated in the hands of a small group of people. thus economic stangnation occurs, in both instances the means of production will evetually be controlled by a single monopoly. so state socialism=capitalism ironically.
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when i said i was a left-wing nationalist, i was talking about National Socialism and fascism. (im not a racist though) but these types of socialism have been proven to work perfectly. national socialism teaches that capital should be the servant of the people. therefore it treats the economy as a means to an end. its final goal is a classless society.
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and no offense, but i think you need to take a look at history, because capitalism certainly HAS NOT provided “prosperity”. look at the 1800s, child labour, no overtime, horrible working conditions, no minimum wage, an employer could fire an employee at will. would you really want to go back to those times? even today the worklers are taken advantage of, an employer can decide to ship your jobs off to china or india, and the next day youre left jobless and pretty soon homeless, because you wont be able to keep up with the interest rates on your mortgage, courtesy of your capitalist banking system. not to mention youre left without healthcare either
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the problem with capitaism is that its based on self-interest, it does not consider whats best for the nation as a whole, the capitalist only cares about his own selfish goals.
capitalism is incompatible with catholicism, as Jesus condems such practices, he said “if you have money, do not lend it at interest, instead give it to someone from who you cannot get it back”, not to mention the early christians held everything in common ownership. furthermore your reasoning is flawed, because you think that capitalists are actually religious, when in fact they are spiritual atheists. they delude themselves into thinking they are justified when they lay off workers, outsource jobs, lower wages, etc. so religion means nothing to a capitalist.
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Um, national socialism works for some people. A state less society would never work (and has never worked), because if everyone is the same, there is no incentive to work hard. With that said, I’m not really a big supporter for unregulated capitalism. As you said, look at the 1800’s. Btw, you’ve misquoted Jesus to make him sound like he’s talking politics. And the early Christians chose to have common ownership of property, and they weren’t forced. They still could own their own private things.

Anyway, a social market economy works best. 👍
 
We are still lacking a post stating a definition of capitalism.

I know … I know … I know … arguing is more fun if you don’t define your terms.

Well, everyone read this book tonight and let’s reconvene in the morning:

mises.org/store/Politically-Incorrect-Guide-to-Capitalism-The-P360.aspx

publisher’s / bookstore’s blurb:

The anti-capitalists are still with us, and how. Robert Murphy has decided to give them an in-your-face economics education that they won’t forget — ever.

His approach comes from years of teaching undergraduates and dealing with the most common errors. He also draws from his teaching experience at the Mises University to offer an Austrian perspective on economics.

He offers explanations and examples that are clear and compelling. What’s wrong with zoning? Murphy explains it. Isn’t outsourcing destroying America? On the contrary says Murphy: it is a wonderful for Americans! Shouldn’t the rich fork over in the name of social justice? Murphy says that this would make us all poorer.

Isn’t the Fed protecting us against depressions and inflations? Precisely the opposite, he says: the Fed is causing economic instability.

In so many ways, this book is a product of the Mises Institute. Murphy learned his economics at the Mises University (while getting his PhD at New York University) and then began to teach at our programs. He now serves as the headmaster of the Mises Institute online classroom.

This could be the most accessible and compelling introduction to free-market economics since Hazlitt’s Economics in One Lesson. Certainly economics has rarely been this fun! The socialists and Keynesian of the world will hate this book and make it a target of all their venom. But if they read it, they might learn something.

This book is sure to become a hot seller, and a major source of controversy on campuses. A previous book in this series landed on the New York Times bestseller list. How splendid to think that with this book, the Austrian perspective is receiving yet another boost in public life.

Barron’s writes: “The Politically Incorrect Guide to Capitalism (Regnery, 2007), by economist Robert P. Murphy, contains more economic wisdom in its fewer-than-200 pages than the average principles textbook several times its length. In clear and often irreverent prose, Murphy makes a compelling case for the unfettered free market…”

Some topics covered:
  1. Why central planning has never worked and never will
  2. How prices operate in a free market (and why socialist schemes like rent control always backfire)
  3. How labor unions actually hurt workers more than they help them
  4. Why increasing the minimum wage is always a bad idea
  5. Why the free market is the best guard against racism
  6. How capitalism will save the environment — and why socialist countries were the most polluted on earth
  7. Raising taxes: why it is never “responsible”
  8. Why no genuine advocate for the downtrodden could endorse the dehumanizing Welfare State
  9. The single biggest myth underlying the public’s support for government regulation of business
  10. Antitrust suits: usually filed by firms that lose in free competition
  11. How tariffs and other restrictions “protect” privileged workers but make other Americans poorer
  12. The IMF and World Bank: why they don’t help poor countries
  13. Why the industrial revolution was the biggest boon for the middle class in human history
Plus: Are you a capitalist pig? Take the quiz and find out!

Breezy, witty, but always clear, precise, and elegantly reasoned, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Capitalism is a solid and entertaining guide to free market economics written from the perspective of the Austrian School.

Murphy deploys all his abundant talents here, and to spectacular effect.
 
thistle said:
The British Labour Party consider themselves socialists as do other similar parties in Europe.
Are you saying that is different from what Americans call socialists?
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Do they advocate that the proletariat will control the means of production through a workers’ state erected by the workers in their interests? That is socialism according to Marx
Neildown said:
Nonetheless, it is the most compatible form of government with the Church for the U.S. I’d rather have a bunch of rich guys lining their pockets than a dictator lining up people in front of the firing squad.
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The Church has zero qualms with Distributism which is sort of a free market with every man owning his own means of production. It can also work with worker’s cooperatives.
 
Dakota_Roberts said:
Do they advocate that the proletariat will control the means of production through a workers’ state erected by the workers in their interests? That is socialism according to Marx

The Church has zero qualms with Distributism which is sort of a free market with every man owning his own means of production. It can also work with worker’s cooperatives.
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Distributism falls apart very quickly.

Widows, orphans, old people, cripples, sick people … need something more than distributism.

Owning shares in business enterprises that they saved up for and bought. Are useful, but that is more of a capitalist, big-business operation. Not distributism, which is more of a cottage industry. Seems to work in one part of Spain, but Spain is very unique. The home of Opus Dei, for example.

In a socialist state with tens of thousands of pages of rules and regulations, a mom-and-pop business is almost impossible to maintain. Because you can’t read them all, and if you violate one teensy regulation, they hit you with tens of thousands of dollars of fines OR they use prosecutors to try to entrap you.
 
Dakota_Roberts said:
Do they advocate that the proletariat will control the means of production through a workers’ state erected by the workers in their interests?** That is socialism according to Marx**

The Church has zero qualms with Distributism which is sort of a free market with every man owning his own means of production. It can also work with worker’s cooperatives.
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This is what I’m getting at. Everyone seems to have different ideas about socialism. So even when the British Labour Party calls themselves socialists you are are saying they are not socialists because they are not marxists?
 
CCC 2425** The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.** Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.” Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
 
Monte_RCMS said:
Distributism falls apart very quickly.

Widows, orphans, old people, cripples, sick people … need something more than distributism.

Owning shares in business enterprises that they saved up for and bought. Are useful, but that is more of a capitalist, big-business operation. Not distributism, which is more of a cottage industry. Seems to work in one part of Spain, but Spain is very unique. The home of Opus Dei, for example.

In a socialist state with tens of thousands of pages of rules and regulations, a mom-and-pop business is almost impossible to maintain. Because you can’t read them all, and if you violate one teensy regulation, they hit you with tens of thousands of dollars of fines OR they use prosecutors to try to entrap you.
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I never said get rid of the government and of course distributism in a Catholic country would have the Church involved in social matters; taking care of “Widows, orphans, old people, cripples, sick people” has been done by the Church since um… the beginning?

Mondragon has revenue in BILLIONS of Euros so it’s not exactly a small time company
 
thistle said:
This is what I’m getting at. Everyone seems to have different ideas about socialism. So even when the British Labour Party calls themselves socialists you are are saying they are not socialists because they are not marxists?
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The original meeting of socialists had two camps, those with Marx and those with Bakunin. I gave you Marx already. Bakunin’s camp is now know as Collectivist anarchism, I’m fairly sure that Labour isn’t hellbent on the violent overthrow of the state!
 
Dakota_Roberts said:
The original meeting of socialists had two camps, those with Marx and those with Bakunin. I gave you Marx already. Bakunin’s camp is now know as Collectivist anarchism, I’m fairly sure that Labour isn’t hellbent on the violent overthrow of the state!
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You are missing my point. People here are scathing about socialists but you actually mean communist type socialists (which are evil).
However, many normal political parties call themselves socialists and they have nothing to do with communism.
I guess what I’m saying is people should be more specific when they talk about socialists so that everyone does not get tarred with the same brush.
I hear Americans (Republicans) calling the Democrats socialists. Do they really think they are like evil communists?
 
wayman said:
“And if I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don’t know” - Kansas
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lol, i didnt say it was MY wisdom, i quoted him an exerpt from a pamphlet written by dr. Joseph Goebbels. but i never claimed myself to be wise. i am merely passing along information 😃
 
thistle said:
You are missing my point. People here are scathing about socialists but you actually mean communist type socialists (which are evil).
However, many normal political parties call themselves socialists and they have nothing to do with communism.
I guess what I’m saying is people should be more specific when they talk about socialists so that everyone does not get tarred with the same brush.
I hear Americans (Republicans) calling the Democrats socialists. Do they really think they are like evil communists?
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actually those european countries you mentioned before still are NOT socialist. they are welfare capitalist. contrary to what americans think, a high tax rate does not make a country “socialist”. lol, it seems most people here who are lashing out against socialism just get all their info from FOX news and glenn beck.:rolleyes:
 
someperson555 said:
lol, i didnt say it was MY wisdom, i quoted him an exerpt from a pamphlet written by dr. Joseph Goebbels. but i never claimed myself to be wise. i am merely passing along information 😃
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Do you think quoting from Josef Goebbels was wise?
 
someperson555 said:
ofcourse, he knew a lot about economics, he could fix the american economy if he were president.
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"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
-Joseph Goebbels

As a Catholic, is that what you’d like to hear from an American President?
 
thistle said:
CCC 2425** The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.** Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.” Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
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No one has a response to this? :rolleyes:
 
Neildown said:
No one has a response to this? :rolleyes:
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This is what the Catechism says. It simply states that the government can’t suppress the rights of the individual either by the suppression of free will in a totalitarian/socialist/communist government or the exploitation of labor in a pure free market system.

The government must be an advocate for an individual’s right to life/liberty and property.
 
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