Are Catholics still forbidden from becoming Communists

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actually those european countries you mentioned before still are NOT socialist. they are welfare capitalist. contrary to what americans think, a high tax rate does not make a country “socialist”. lol,** it seems most people here who are lashing out against socialism just get all their info from FOX news and glenn beck**.:rolleyes:
It certainly seems that way.🙂
 
You are missing my point. People here are scathing about socialists but you actually mean communist type socialists (which are evil).
However, many normal political parties call themselves socialists and they have nothing to do with communism.
I guess what I’m saying is people should be more specific when they talk about socialists so that everyone does not get tarred with the same brush.
I hear Americans (Republicans) calling the Democrats socialists. Do they really think they are like evil communists?
When I say socialist I mean the ones who are actually socialists according to the definition.
 
CCC 2425** The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.** Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.” Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
No one has a response to this? :rolleyes:
I’ll have a crack…

You have underlined and emboldened two sentences.

The first sentence states, rather categorically, that the Church rejects the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modern times with “communism” and “socialism”.

In that sentence the Church is pointing out that atheism is a part of socialism and communism. She must reject atheism, so therefore, she must reject communism and socilaism. However, the Church also says she rejects the totalitarianism associated with both socialism and communism and which is also associated with atheism. Considering how socialism is intermediate between capitalism and communism, and the latter is, by definition, totalitarian, then the Church must also rightly reject socialism.

I don’t think anyone here has yet attempted a definition of socialism. There just isn’t one single definition, but it describes the varying degrees to which the ownership of the means of production are owned by a government. According to the marxists and leninists, it is the intermediate stage between capitalism and communism. In laymans terms, socilaism gives more economic and social power to authority and that is what the Church is making a stand against.

The second sentence emboldened and underlined states that, within capitalism, the Church has refused to accept individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. I take it “refuses to accept” is equivalent to “rejected”.

I find it rather contradictory that the Church rejects the rule of the marketplace over labor, yet is against the control by government of the other factors of production. If it is OK for government to interfere in the market place for setting a value on labor, then why is it not OK for governments to interfere with the markets for the other factors of production?

At the same time the Church rejects the primacy of “individualism” in the marketplace. This, I think, is the key to making sense of what the Church is saying. If anyone has read david Ricardo’s theories of economics, they would also probably know that his theories underpinned Karl Marx’s theories. Ricardo theorised that the market place would ultimately drive down wages and Marx capitalised on that observation. Of course, Ricardo’s theory was tempered by other observations regarding value and comparitaive advantage. The main point to be made is, if the creed of “individualism” was not such a strong one in western society, then it wouldn’t really matter what the market place did to the fluctuations of wages. Families and communities would step into the breach to support those whose wages had taken a hit.

Regulation of the marketplace for labor in a capitalist economy actually reinforces, artificially, the notion of “individulaism”.
 
Communism and socialism are enforced by huge giant bureaucracies.

And, like it or not, both Communism and socialism have their hand-picked special friends who get the benefit of special favors. Nomenklatura. Look it up. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenklatura Different names.

Their rule books run into the thousands of pages … Kafka-esque. You must obey.

And the rules are enforced selectively and arbitrarily. You just never know when some busybody bureaucrat will single you out for special attention.

The penalty for disobedience is extreme sanction.

In socialism, they fine you. Put you out of business. Seize your property.

In communism, they put you in a prison camp or shoot you. But first, they will harvest your organs. Nothing goes to waste. And you are a thing.
 
Visit Amazon and read “The Black Book of Communism”.

Supporters of Communism do not like to discuss real life.

You can also visit www.mindszenty.org and ask for a copy of “The Philosophy of Communism” by McFadden.

mindszenty.org/Books_Booklets.aspx

“The Philosophy of Communism” is $2. Their other book sale offerings are excellent, as well.

In addition, you can read “Divini Redemptoris” … Atheistic Communism … the Encyclical Letter of Pope Pius XI.

No substitute for doing the reading.
The teaching of the Church has not been canceled.

Please do the reading. Use the above references mentioned in my previous post.

You can also look up “Fire in the Minds of Men” by James Billington, who is the librarian of Congress. Excellent book on the origins of modern Communism.

Learn for yourself what Communism is … it was pure evil before and it is still pure evil. There are no mitigating good points to Communism.

There is nothing in Communism that makes it “nice” because it is nice to share.

There is no “nice face” that you can put on Communism.

Nobody moves to North Korea or Cuba to find more freedom or for their economic benefits or so that they can be more free “to share”. People go to extremes to flee FROM Communism. The reason for things like the Berlin Wall and for the fences around Communist countries is to PREVENT people from leaving.

If you want to live in a community on a voluntary basis, you are free to do so, but that ain’t Communism.
 
actually those european countries you mentioned before still are NOT socialist. they are welfare capitalist. contrary to what americans think, a high tax rate does not make a country “socialist”. lol, it seems most people here who are lashing out against socialism just get all their info from FOX news and glenn beck.:rolleyes:
Obligatory “fox news is evil” post is duly noted Can a "it’s Bushs fault " be far behind?
 
Obligatory “fox news is evil” post is duly noted Can a "it’s Bushs fault " be far behind?
Depending on what you mean with socialist he is right about what he said about high taxes though and I think that ‘‘it’s Bush’s fault’’ that the dinosaurs died. 😉
 
Obligatory “fox news is evil” post is duly noted Can a "it’s Bushs fault " be far behind?
Don’t worry, Bush is nowhere near as bad as Abraham Lincoln or FDR were (now Cheney…)

ducks
 
This is what the Catechism says. It simply states that the government can’t suppress the rights of the individual either by the suppression of free will in a totalitarian/socialist/communist government or the exploitation of labor in a pure free market system.

The government must be an advocate for an individual’s right to life/liberty and property.
Right, but which is more possible - a Communist/socialist government not suppressing free will, or the prevention of exploitation of labor in a free market system? I do think the latter is much more plausible than the former, and in the case of either not being capable of being changed, a sleazy free market is still better than suppression of free will.
 
actually those european countries you mentioned before still are NOT socialist. they are welfare capitalist. contrary to what americans think, a high tax rate does not make a country “socialist”. lol, it seems most people here who are lashing out against socialism just get all their info from FOX news and glenn beck.:rolleyes:
Actually, no one has yet put much of a scratch on Glenn Beck - your definition of said people’s definition of socialism is a bit narrow I’m afraid. If you have actually* watched* Glenn’s show on a regular basis you would realize its deeper than that. :cool:
 
Right, but which is more possible - a Communist/socialist government not suppressing free will, or the prevention of exploitation of labor in a free market system? I do think the latter is much more plausible than the former, and in the case of either not being capable of being changed, a sleazy free market is still better than suppression of free will.
In a free market economics system, YOU have the option whether to participate or not.

In a socialist or communist system, there are varying degrees of compulsory behavior.
 
The Politically Incorrect Guide to Socialism (Politically Incorrect Guides) [Paperback]
Kevin D Williamson (Author)
3.6 out of 5 stars See all reviews (44 customer reviews)
 
The Politically Incorrect Guide to Socialism (Politically Incorrect Guides) [Paperback]
Kevin D Williamson (Author)
3.6 out of 5 stars See all reviews (44 customer reviews)
May I ask what this is in reference to?
 
No one has a response to this? :rolleyes:
yes, I do. It’s called a social market economy. 😃 I have support from the pope and Reinhard Marx. Of course, there are other options, but I find it most compatible with Catholicism and some of my views others might not have. After all, I am biased towards Germany. 😉
 
This thing has made the rounds a hundred times, but some folks seem to have not read it:

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama’s plan”. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A… (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.

As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little…

The second test average was a D!

No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. It could not be any simpler than that.

Remember, there IS a test coming up. The 2012 elections.

These are possibly the 5 best sentences you’ll ever read and all
applicable to this experiment:
  1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating
    the wealthy out of prosperity.
  2. What one person receives without working for, another person
    must work for without receiving.
  3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the
    government does not first take from somebody else.
  4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!
  5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to
    work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when
    the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because
    somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the
    beginning of the end of any nation.
 
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