Are Catholics supposed to believe that Adam and Eve were real people ?

[edwest2]

From Catholic Answers:

"Adam and Eve: Real People

“It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2–3) as a fiction. A question often raised in this context is whether the human race descended from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) or a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).”

And it’s not just in Genesis.

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned–” Romans 5:12

Source: biblehub.com/romans/5-12.htm

We are all born with Original Sin as a result.

Ed

 

[Porknpie]

I’m still struggling and looking, however, I’m very grateful and would like to thank you guys for taking time to help answer my questions (and especially for the links recommended by two forum members; these links that seem to be very helpful, I’ll look into them soon). God bless you.

Also, here’s link to a magazine article from the Catholic.com Library:

catholic.com/magazine/articles/before-sin

Also one from EWTN by JPII

Summary of Catechesis on Original Sin

 

[Michalina58]

From Catholic Answers:

"Adam and Eve: Real People

“It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2–3) as a fiction. A question often raised in this context is whether the human race descended from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) or a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).”

And it’s not just in Genesis.

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned–” Romans 5:12

Ed

Yes, so this teaching does (or at least seems to) contradict the scientific view ?

Please correct me if I’m wrong, as I’m trying hard to find answers. Also, like I’ve mentioned before, we should not and can not just ignore scientific evidence.

 

[edwest2]

Yes, so this teaching does (or at least seems to) contradict the scientific view ?

Please correct me if I’m wrong, as I’m trying hard to find answers. Also, like I’ve mentioned before, we should not and can not just ignore scientific evidence.

Evidence of what exactly? God can do only what God can do. Jesus raised the dead, gave sight to the blind in a moment, without scientific instrumentation. The scientific evidence you refer to would lead to a discussion of evolution which is a banned topic.

Best,
Ed

 

[Michalina58]

Evidence of what exactly? God can do only what God can do. Jesus raised the dead, gave sight to the blind in a moment, without scientific instrumentation. The scientific evidence you refer to would lead to a discussion of evolution which is a banned topic.

Best,
Ed

Evolution is a banned topic… what do you mean ?

I believe in theistic evolution, but what about polygenism that is supported by a great deal of scientific evidence. ?

 

[edwest2]

Evolution is a banned topic… what do you mean ?

I believe in theistic evolution, but what about polygenism that is supported by a great deal of scientific evidence. ?

Here’s the link to the official ban:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=960417

From Catholic Answers:

"In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: “When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own” (Humani Generis 37).

The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390)."

Ed

 

[Gorgias]

I believe in theistic evolution, but what about polygenism that is supported by a great deal of scientific evidence. ?

Here’s the distinction, perhaps, that you’re searching for. There’s no official Church doctrine on the matter, though:

It all hinges on what you mean by ‘polygenism’.

If, by ‘polygenism’ you mean there was a population of thousands of ensouled humans, and never a population of two (first) ensouled humans, then Pius XII’s comments apply: this polygenism, which posits multiple “true humans,” is not compatible with Catholic theology.

If, on the other hand, you mean there was a population of thousands of hominins (without reference to their ensoulment), then you can still hold to what the Church teaches. After all, hominins who are not “true humans” – that is, who do not have human souls – don’t contradict the teachings of the Church. (And, after all, science can’t ‘measure’ souls, so it cannot make a statement about the ensoulment of anyone, let alone our distant ancestors.) So, if there were two first “true humans” – that is, ensouled humans – as part of a population of thousands of hominins, through whom the population of humans proceeded, then we’re all good.

So, this latter understanding allows you not only to hold to what science teaches you (“thousands of hominins”) but also what the Church teaches you (“two true humans”). No contradiction.

Does that help?

 

[edwest2]

Here’s the distinction, perhaps, that you’re searching for. There’s no official Church doctrine on the matter, though:

It all hinges on what you mean by ‘polygenism’.

If, by ‘polygenism’ you mean there was a population of thousands of ensouled humans, and never a population of two (first) ensouled humans, then Pius XII’s comments apply: this polygenism, which posits multiple “true humans,” is not compatible with Catholic theology.

If, on the other hand, you mean there was a population of thousands of hominins (without reference to their ensoulment), then you can still hold to what the Church teaches. After all, hominins who are not “true humans” – that is, who do not have human souls – don’t contradict the teachings of the Church. (And, after all, science can’t ‘measure’ souls, so it cannot make a statement about the ensoulment of anyone, let alone our distant ancestors.) So, if there were two first “true humans” – that is, ensouled humans – as part of a population of thousands of hominins, through whom the population of humans proceeded, then we’re all good.

So, this latter understanding allows you not only to hold to what science teaches you (“thousands of hominins”) but also what the Church teaches you (“two true humans”). No contradiction.

Does that help?

I think that confuses the issue. How does anyone know if Hominids had souls or not?

Ed

 

[808Catholic]

I think that confuses the issue. How does anyone know if Hominids had souls or not?

Ed

Not trying to be a wise guy but there is no fossil record of a soul anywhere. Faith tells us every human descended from Adam and Eve and they all had souls. We don’t know if Hominids descended from Adam and Eve so we can’t say if they had souls.

 

[Gorgias]

How does anyone know if Hominids had souls or not?

That’s the whole point.

People say “science tells us that we descended from a population of thousands”, as if that disproves monogenism. Theologically speaking, we’re talking about ‘humans with souls’, and all science can talk about is hominins (but is completely unable to make any assertion about souls). Therefore, there’s not the contradiction that some would posit.

 

[edwest2]

Not trying to be a wise guy but there is no fossil record of a soul anywhere. Faith tells us every human descended from Adam and Eve and they all had souls. We don’t know if Hominids descended from Adam and Eve so we can’t say if they had souls.

Adam and Eve were our first parents. The real question is: what connection do they have, if any, to hominids? Science would tell us that there is a direct connection.

Ed

 

[Michalina58]

Here’s the link to the official ban:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=960417

From Catholic Answers:

"In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: “When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own” (Humani Generis 37).

The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390)."

Ed

Yes, I do agree with what The Catechism states, "The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.”
However the polygenism is still the problem, as it is supported by scientific evidence.

 

[Michalina58]

Here’s the distinction, perhaps, that you’re searching for. There’s no official Church doctrine on the matter, though:

It all hinges on what you mean by ‘polygenism’.

If, by ‘polygenism’ you mean there was a population of thousands of ensouled humans, and never a population of two (first) ensouled humans, then Pius XII’s comments apply: this polygenism, which posits multiple “true humans,” is not compatible with Catholic theology.

If, on the other hand, you mean there was a population of thousands of hominins (without reference to their ensoulment), then you can still hold to what the Church teaches. After all, hominins who are not “true humans” – that is, who do not have human souls – don’t contradict the teachings of the Church. (And, after all, science can’t ‘measure’ souls, so it cannot make a statement about the ensoulment of anyone, let alone our distant ancestors.) So, if there were two first “true humans” – that is, ensouled humans – as part of a population of thousands of hominins, through whom the population of humans proceeded, then we’re all good.

So, this latter understanding allows you not only to hold to what science teaches you (“thousands of hominins”) but also what the Church teaches you (“two true humans”). No contradiction.

Does that help?

I like your explanation and I think it is quite a good one, but why give souls to only two hominins when there were many more?

 

[edwest2]

Yes, I do agree with what The Catechism states, "The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.”
However the polygenism is still the problem, as it is supported by scientific evidence.

I think Adam and Eve were special creations as recorded in the Bible. Who the other beings or “hominids” were is not the problem. A problem occurs when Adam and Eve are directly connected to them.

Ed

 

[Michalina58]

I think Adam and Eve were special creations as recorded in the Bible. Who the other beings or “hominids” were is not the problem. A problem occurs when Adam and Eve are directly connected to them.

Ed

…but if they were not connected to them,(they were not one of the hominids?) then they would have had to be created instantly ?

 

[on_the_hill]

I think that confuses the issue. How does anyone know if Hominids had souls or not?

Ed

Fore that matter, how does anyone know if we have souls? We believe we do, but we can’t prove it.

 

[Gorgias]

I like your explanation and I think it is quite a good one, but why give souls to only two hominins when there were many more?

If only ‘Adam and Eve’ sinned, then would the ‘many more’ likewise have original sin? Would they require a savior?

That’s one reason that polygenism is rejected – it contradicts the theology of salvation through Christ…

 

[808Catholic]

Adam and Eve were our first parents. The real question is: what connection do they have, if any, to hominids? Science would tell us that there is a direct connection.

Ed

Is there a direct descendant type of proof. First, science would have to prove at what point did homo sapiens gain a soul. At that point, we might be able to say “that’s Adam and Eve!” Then, is the fossil record complete enough to actually trace Homonids to that particular couple?

 

[808Catholic]

I like your explanation and I think it is quite a good one, but why give souls to only two hominins when there were many more?

Your question could be expanded to why didn’t God give souls to rocks, trees, and fish?

 

[808Catholic]

…but if they were not connected to them,(they were not one of the hominids?) then they would have had to be created instantly ?

As each child is created in the womb; instantly. God is the source of life because He gives us form and spirit. Any other animal can procreate but they have no souls.