Are Catholics taught to be more loyal to the church than to God and Jesus Christ?

[Seaborgium]

Are Catholics taught to be more loyal to the church than to God and Jesus Christ?

I notice how fervently defensive catholics can be whenever a slight disagreement crops up about some catholic doctrine, expression of doubt about church teaching (usually the usual roster of what Protestants level at Catholics e.g. Mariolatry), so it makes me question whether catholics have the wrong focus, sometimes, it even comes down to loyalty to a particular church building or religious order, not even about denominational loyalty does disapproval come. Shouldn’t they be reasoning from the source of morality as taught by scripture and Jesus Christ, rather than from the position of loyalty to clergy and church. We know from the weakness of human behaviour that social loyalty can sometimes trump loyalty to Morality which has no human character to refer to, and an Abstract idea of God. This is what I feel sometimes drawn from my interaction with catholics, that they defend the church and clergy, and not from a position of indepedent morality but defensiveness out of loyalty to the church, sometimes clergy are wrong and they are also weak to sin. So why defend that?

 

[Kal2012]

The reason you ask the question is because you don’t see the connection between the theology, the institution and tradition. They aren’t separate things, but pieces of the same pie. The mass comes from our Jewish spiritual heritage. Our church comes Jesus who gave the “keys” to St. Peter who build something new from their shared heritage and shared ideals. Jesus gave us the Priesthood. Jesus gave us the Sacraments. Jesus gave us the gospel. Jesus is reason for the Church. The Church is for Jesus. They aren’t separate things.

I think this is where people get lost when it comes to Catholicism. They don’t see the big picture. They see the different parts but don’t see that they are connected and intertwined with each other.

The thing is that our priests are human beings and are just as capable of sinning as the laypeople. We just don’t like to believe it sometimes because the priest took vows when he entered the priesthood. Call it human nature. We don’t like to believe our heroes (secular or religious) can be sinners too.

In short, when we defend our church, we defend Jesus. We are loyal to Catholicism because we are loyal to Jesus.

People are free to disagree - which is why we ended up having the Reformation and other church schisms in history.

 

[Jozefo]

I think it’s a self evident truth that they are taught to be more loyal to the church, but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Children are taught to stay close to home, until they are mature.

 

[trevorhall]

No.

 

[dmar198]

Are Catholics taught to be more loyal to the church than to God and Jesus Christ?

I notice how fervently defensive catholics can be whenever a slight disagreement crops up about some catholic doctrine, expression of doubt about church teaching (usually the usual roster of what Protestants level at Catholics e.g. Mariolatry), so it makes me question whether catholics have the wrong focus, sometimes, it even comes down to loyalty to a particular church building or religious order, not even about denominational loyalty does disapproval come. Shouldn’t they be reasoning from the source of morality as taught by scripture and Jesus Christ, rather than from the position of loyalty to clergy and church. We know from the weakness of human behaviour that social loyalty can sometimes trump loyalty to Morality which has no human character to refer to, and an Abstract idea of God. This is what I feel sometimes drawn from my interaction with catholics, that they defend the church and clergy, and not from a position of indepedent morality but defensiveness out of loyalty to the church, sometimes clergy are wrong and they are also weak to sin. So why defend that?

“Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church” (Pope St. Gregory the Great).

“Head and members form the same mystical person” (St. Thomas Aquinas).

At her trial, St. Joan of Arc replied, “About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they are just one thing and we shouldn’t complicate the matter.”

 

[MattofTexas]

As I understand it: Catholics believe that the Church has been and is still guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit. Of course as the Church is hospital for sinners, and not merely a hall of fame for the saints, sometimes her members make mistakes in how they do things, express themselves, etc. and the clergy are not immune from this. So while it is possible for large segments of the Church to be wrong or even guilty of grave sin, Catholics understand the Church as being the body and bride of Christ Himself, which He established, the Holy Spirit sustains, and strives by grace to do the will of the Father. As such it is not correct to pit the Church against Jesus Christ and ask to whom your loyalty belongs, because Christ is the Founder and Eternal Head of the Church- and when the members of the Church are faithful to their holy calling there can be no conflict between the Church and the will of God, because the Church serves God and was given her authority by Him.

Furthermore it is important to remember that Catholic doctrine is based in the sacred deposit of faith, some of which is written in Scripture, but other parts of which have been passed down orally, through liturgy, or have been codified in non-canonical Church teachings. Yet the whole deposit is contained in Christ and His teachings, and was passed down by the apostles (with an understanding of authentic development of Christian doctrine in our minds).

 

[LegoGE1947]

As I understand it: Catholics believe that the Church has been and is still guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit. Of course as the Church is hospital for sinners, and not merely a hall of fame for the saints, sometimes her members make mistakes in how they do things, express themselves, etc. and the clergy are not immune from this. So while it is possible for large segments of the Church to be wrong or even guilty of grave sin, Catholics understand the Church as being the body and bride of Christ Himself, which He established, the Holy Spirit sustains, and strives by grace to do the will of the Father. As such it is not correct to pit the Church against Jesus Christ and ask to whom your loyalty belongs, because Christ is the Founder and Eternal Head of the Church- and when the members of the Church are faithful to their holy calling there can be no conflict between the Church and the will of God, because the Church serves God and was given her authority by Him.

Furthermore it is important to remember that Catholic doctrine is based in the sacred deposit of faith, some of which is written in Scripture, but other parts of which have been passed down orally, through liturgy, or have been codified in non-canonical Church teachings. Yet the whole deposit is contained in Christ and His teachings, and was passed down by the apostles (with an understanding of authentic development of Christian doctrine in our minds).

Christ and His Church are One! Same as a husband and wife are (supposed to be) one.

 

[Avila123]

The reason you ask the question is because you don’t see the connection between the theology, the institution and tradition. They aren’t separate things, but pieces of the same pie. The mass comes from our Jewish spiritual heritage. Our church comes Jesus who gave the “keys” to St. Peter who build something new from their shared heritage and shared ideals. Jesus gave us the Priesthood. Jesus gave us the Sacraments. Jesus gave us the gospel. Jesus is reason for the Church. The Church is for Jesus. They aren’t separate things.

I think this is where people get lost when it comes to Catholicism. They don’t see the big picture. They see the different parts but don’t see that they are connected and intertwined with each other.

The thing is that our priests are human beings and are just as capable of sinning as the laypeople. We just don’t like to believe it sometimes because the priest took vows when he entered the priesthood. Call it human nature. We don’t like to believe our heroes (secular or religious) can be sinners too.

In short, when we defend our church, we defend Jesus. We are loyal to Catholicism because we are loyal to Jesus.

People are free to disagree - which is why we ended up having the Reformation and other church schisms in history.

Couldn’t put it better myself. Another factor is that people tend to get tribal, which can be a great strength e.g. supporting and building each other up. On the other side of the coin, it can encourage tunnel vision which is a weakness we all have to work on sooner or later.

On a final note, I relate to a fair bit of the OP and it caused some painful spiritual battles within and I expect there will be more battles. At the moment, I try not to look at others judging their spiritual health (it is so hard at times) because it distracts me from my own weaknesses and failings and causes me to separate from the community. Personally, I can think of lots of reasons to change parish, but I stay because I know without a shadow of doubt, that I am where God put me. Besides, Jesus never said anything would be easy or comfortable.

 

[GEddie]

When you are loyal to someone, are you also loyal to his or her body?

Rather silly distinction, non?

Yet the Church is the earthly body of our LORD since His ascension.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Are Catholics taught to be more loyal to the church than to God and Jesus Christ?

I notice how fervently defensive catholics can be whenever a slight disagreement crops up about some catholic doctrine, expression of doubt about church teaching (usually the usual roster of what Protestants level at Catholics e.g. Mariolatry), so it makes me question whether catholics have the wrong focus, sometimes, it even comes down to loyalty to a particular church building or religious order, not even about denominational loyalty does disapproval come. Shouldn’t they be reasoning from the source of morality as taught by scripture and Jesus Christ, rather than from the position of loyalty to clergy and church. We know from the weakness of human behaviour that social loyalty can sometimes trump loyalty to Morality which has no human character to refer to, and an Abstract idea of God. This is what I feel sometimes drawn from my interaction with catholics, that they defend the church and clergy, and not from a position of indepedent morality but defensiveness out of loyalty to the church, sometimes clergy are wrong and they are also weak to sin. So why defend that?

When one submits to the Church they submit to God through his institution of the Church.

Ignatius of Antioch (107 AD) says:

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. …] Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. …] Whatsoever [the bishop] shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.” (St. Ignatius: Letter to the Smyrnaeans; Ch 8)

“Let all things therefore be done by you with good order in Christ. Let the laity be subject to the deacons; the deacons to the presbyters; the presbyters to the bishop; the bishop to Christ, even as He is to the Father.” (St. Ignatius: Letter to the Smyrnaeans; Ch 9)

“It is becoming, therefore, that ye also should be obedient to your bishop, and contradict him in nothing; for it is a fearful thing to contradict any such person. For no one does [by such conduct] deceive him that is visible, but does [in reality] seek to mock Him that is invisible, who, however, cannot be mocked by any one. And every such act has respect not to man, but to God.” (St. Ignatius: Letter to the Magnesians; Ch 3)

“Some indeed give one the title of bishop, but do all things without him. Now such persons seem to me to be not possessed of a good conscience, seeing they are not stedfastly gathered together according to the commandment.” (St. Ignatius: Letter to the Magnesians; Ch 4)

Wherefore it is fitting that ye also should run together in accordance with the will of the bishop who by God’s appointment rules over you. Which thing ye indeed of yourselves do, being instructed by the Spirit. For your justly-renowned presbytery, being worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp. Thus, being joined together in concord and harmonious love, of which Jesus Christ is the Captain and Guardian, do ye, man by man, become but one choir; so that, agreeing together in concord, and obtaining a perfect unity with God, ye may indeed be one in harmonious feeling with God the Father, and His beloved Son Jesus Christ our Lord.” (St. Ignatius: Letter to the Ephesians; Ch 4)

 

[St_Francis]

Christ said: “I AM the Way, the *Truth, *and the Light.”

Thus, if we defend a truth, we are defending Christ, no?

As to defending clergy, they too are our brothers in Christ, yet they are used as whips against the Body of Christ. Some clergy have committed heinous crimes; this is indefensible, but they were going *against *the teachings of the Church when they committed these crimes; that cannot he held against the Church.

 

[EmeraldOak]

Are Catholics taught to be more loyal to the church than to God and Jesus Christ?

I was never taught this.

 

[prodigalson2011]

As others have pointed out, it’s a false dichotomy. To add to their remarks, one must understand that Christ is the head of the Church, and the Church (its doctrines as well as its members) is His mystical body. It is impossible to be more loyal to the Church than Christ, because the more loyal you are to the Church (that is, the TEACHINGS of the Church as well as the Pope [who is Christ’s vicar on Earth and speaks with an infallibility granted him by the Holy Spirit]), the more loyal you are to Christ. There can be no rivalry between God and that which is instituted, upheld and protected by God.

In fact, quite to the contrary of your question, to be LESS loyal to the Church is to be LESS loyal to Christ, as deviation from the teachings of the Church is, de facto, a deviation from the word (and Word) of God.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

There will always be those who defend the institutional Church regardless of the sins committed. Their ego-identity is attached to the institutional religion and any negatives against it, is an affront against their ego. They will respond offensively.

This is not what Christ’s ask of us.

Catholics must be obedient Church doctrine yes, but more important, they must be Christ centered.

When a Bishop adds a $500,000 addition to his million dollar summer home while closing parishes, the people have a right to protest and ask the Pope for his removal.

Thank God we have a Pope like Francis, who is setting an example of what it means for a priest to be a humble servant of God.

Jim

 

[Jeanne_S]

The reason you ask the question is because you don’t see the connection between the theology, the institution and tradition. They aren’t separate things, but pieces of the same pie. The mass comes from our Jewish spiritual heritage. Our church comes Jesus who gave the “keys” to St. Peter who build something new from their shared heritage and shared ideals. Jesus gave us the Priesthood. Jesus gave us the Sacraments. Jesus gave us the gospel. Jesus is reason for the Church. The Church is for Jesus. They aren’t separate things.

I think this is where people get lost when it comes to Catholicism. They don’t see the big picture. They see the different parts but don’t see that they are connected and intertwined with each other.

The thing is that our priests are human beings and are just as capable of sinning as the laypeople. We just don’t like to believe it sometimes because the priest took vows when he entered the priesthood. Call it human nature. We don’t like to believe our heroes (secular or religious) can be sinners too.

In short, when we defend our church, we defend Jesus. We are loyal to Catholicism because we are loyal to Jesus.

People are free to disagree - which is why we ended up having the Reformation and other church schisms in history.

Well said!

 

[JRKH]

Are Catholics taught to be more loyal to the church than to God and Jesus Christ?

No the Church does not teach this.

I notice how fervently defensive Catholics can be whenever a slight disagreement crops up about some catholic doctrine, expression of doubt about church teaching (usually the usual roster of what Protestants level at Catholics e.g. Mariolatry), so it makes me question whether Catholics have the wrong focus, sometimes,

Yes we can be a pesky bunch …

it even comes down to loyalty to a particular church building or religious order, not even about denominational loyalty does disapproval come. Shouldn’t they be reasoning from the source of morality as taught by scripture and Jesus Christ, rather than from the position of loyalty to clergy and church.

Well - things are going to become a bit tricky here…when we speak of “reasoning from the source of morality” the Catholic should not separate “Scripture and Jesus Christ” from the Church. We are to be loyal to the teachings of the Church because we are loyal to Christ.

We know from the weakness of human behavior that social loyalty can sometimes trump loyalty to Morality which has no human character to refer to, and an Abstract idea of God.

Yup - weakness of human behavior…Not Church teaching.

This is what I feel sometimes drawn from my interaction with Catholics, that they defend the church and clergy, and not from a position of independent morality but defensiveness out of loyalty to the church, sometimes clergy are wrong and they are also weak to sin. So why defend that?

Can’t really say - but as you have already remarked, we humans are weak and sometimes can get off track. But it is not the teaching of the Church.

Just some thoughts

Peace
James

 

[Corki]

Are Catholics taught to be more loyal to the church than to God and Jesus Christ?

No, there is no Church teaching that is remotely similar to this. Catholics are taught that one cannot be loyal to their Church without** first **developing a deep devotion and loyalty to Jesus Christ.

Anything you may have heard to the contrary is tired anti-Catholic blather.

 

[Sarcelle]

Are Catholics taught to be more loyal to the church than to God and Jesus Christ?

I notice how fervently defensive catholics can be whenever a slight disagreement crops up about some catholic doctrine, expression of doubt about church teaching (usually the usual roster of what Protestants level at Catholics e.g. Mariolatry), so it makes me question whether catholics have the wrong focus, sometimes, it even comes down to loyalty to a particular church building or religious order, not even about denominational loyalty does disapproval come. Shouldn’t they be reasoning from the source of morality as taught by scripture and Jesus Christ, rather than from the position of loyalty to clergy and church. We know from the weakness of human behaviour that social loyalty can sometimes trump loyalty to Morality which has no human character to refer to, and an Abstract idea of God. This is what I feel sometimes drawn from my interaction with catholics, that they defend the church and clergy, and not from a position of indepedent morality but defensiveness out of loyalty to the church, sometimes clergy are wrong and they are also weak to sin. So why defend that?

Somebody actually told me thatI cared more about the Church than about God, when I was defending Church doctrine. I said they missed the point. I am defending the Church not because I think the Church is guided by perfect men. I am all too aware that the Church, at least the part of the Church here on earth is populated by sinners. My trust in the Church is actually trust in Jesus. When he said the gates of Hell will not prevail, I believe Him. Also I trust the Holy Spirit still guides the Church.

 

[RuthTherese]

I do think that it can be rather anti-Catholic whenever people suggest that loyalty to the Church is something we hold over loyalty to God. I’ve had Protestants tell me that they’re certain that if the Pope told us to eat kittens on Sundays instead of the Eucharist, we’d do it. So, I think part of this misconception that we follow the Church with completely blind loyalty.

God created the Church for us, and it is a part of Him that helps us grow closer and closer to him throughout our lives.

 

[LegoGE1947]

I do think that it can be rather anti-Catholic whenever people suggest that loyalty to the Church is something we hold over loyalty to God. I’ve had Protestants tell me that they’re certain that if the Pope told us to eat kittens on Sundays instead of the Eucharist, we’d do it. So, I think part of this misconception that we follow the Church with completely blind loyalty.

God created the Church for us, and it is a part of Him that helps us grow closer and closer to him throughout our lives.

As Jesus said “The Sabbath ( and by analogy, the Church) was made for Man, not Man for the Sabbath”!