Are Catholics who support abortions,contraception ect, guilty of dissent?

[Lisa4Catholics]

I think they are in dissent,but I would like to hear your take on it.If you have any documents from the Magestarium they would be appreciated.God Bless

 

[Dr.Colossus]

It depends on their knowledge of official Church teaching in the matter. If they have been raised on faulty “Spirit of Vatican-II”, “It’s your conscience that matters” theology they may not be dissenters as they don’t know that they are dissenting.

However, a person aware of the numerous Church pronouncements on the subject who disagreed and still insisted on calling themselves Catholic would be dissenters.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Thankyou very much for your answer. You have to wonder with all the media slamming the Pope for his teaching how they couldn’t know What exactly is the conscience theology?God Bless

 

[jlw]

Lisa4Catholics:

Thankyou very much for your answer. You have to wonder with all the media slamming the Pope for his teaching how they couldn’t know What exactly is the conscience theology?God Bless

conscience theology?? RELATIVISM

 

[jlw]

YES, they are.

An athiest can support “social justice” issues, too. What’s the difference between he and Ted Kennedy??

A protestant can believe in the Holy Trinity and support “social justice”, but accept or promote abortion, and they aren’t “dissenting” because they DON’T or CAN’T rely on 2000 years of Magesterial AUTHORITY on the matter. John Kerry should, but doesn’t. What is the difference between that protestant and John Kerry??

 

[katherine2]

An athiest can support “pro-life” issues, too.
A protestant can believe in the Holy Trinity and support “pro-life”, but accept or promote racism, and they aren’t “dissenting” because they DON’T or CAN’T rely on 2000 years of Magesterial AUTHORITY on the matter. Those who reject the churches social teachings should, but don’t. What is the difference between that protestant and a Catholic racist??

 

[Scott_Waddell]

I have a student who will be confirmed next year. The person confessed that she did not accept the Church’s teaching on abortion (dissenting parents). I basically have a year to get the person to accept the teaching and if not, I have to inform the priest who has made it rather clear that cannot be confirmed if she doesn’t. Pray for her conversion.

Scott

 

[Pug]

Scott Waddell:

I have a student who will be confirmed next year. The person confessed that she did not accept the Church’s teaching on abortion (dissenting parents).

Is confirmation normally a don’t ask don’t tell policy so that this situation doesn’t come up? RCIA is like that, except for being sure about a person’s marriage.

 

[Agomemnon]

Lisa4Catholics:

I think they are in dissent,but I would like to hear your take on it.If you have any documents from the Magestarium they would be appreciated.God Bless

I wish we had better terms. I would rather dissent refer to authority and disciplinary matters only but since it also means those that hold heretical and intrinsically evil doctrines I must use it here.

Yes they are in dissent. Yes they are heretics. Yes what they support is intrinsically evil and abortion is an Abominable Crime (as Vatican II dogmatically affirmed).

I was once a contracepting heretic so don’t think I’m being mean. I’m being truthful and only the Truth presented and presented often will shine the light of Christ through these dark doctrines of Satan.

What should you do. Present the truth. Humanae Vitae, Evengelium Vitae,the constant teaching ofthe Early Church Fathers. and don’t forget to pray to St. Michael the Archangel and the All Holy Mary Mother of God to defeat the demons darkening their hearts and minds.

 

[A_Chaoidh]

First I recommed you have dissenters read “Instruction on respect for Human Life”

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19870222_respect-for-human-life_en.html

N.B., I am no expert, however according to what you list these go far beyond simple dissent to sin… and depending on the dissent (e.g. if one denies a Truth or holds the opposite of a Truth) and if obstinate in sin, one may be anathema and/or guilty of heresy.

Fiorenzo Cardinal Angelini declared that “Humanae Vitae” “is a doctrine of the Church expressed in a very solemn form,” and if people do “not believe that, they are committing a sin.” catholic-pages.com/morality/hv-angelini.asp

Furthermore, as Catholics we must accept the Teaching Authority of the Church:

The Pope is correct. Dogma: “The Pope is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra (De fide.).”

The Church is correct. Dogma: “In the final decision on doctrines concerning faith and morals the Church is infallible. (De fide.)”

"The primary object of the Infallibility is the formally revealed truths of Christian Doctrine concerning faith and morals. (De fide.)

“The secondary object of the Infallibility is truths of the Christian teaching on faith and morals, which are not formally revealed, but which are closely connected with the teaching of Revelation. (Sent. certa.)”

“The totality of the Bishops is infallible when they, either assembled in general council or scattered over the earth, propose a teaching of faith or morals as one to be held by all the faithful. (De fide.)”

To refute any aspect of these, AFAIK, is anathema and heresy. One cannot ask or expect the Church to change to suite one’s preferences, opinions, perspective or orientation as “dissenters” do.

I, a penitent sinner, also see the Deadly Sin of Pride in these dissenters who seemingly value their own intellectual conclusions, moral judgement and “personal conscience” far above those of Church Fathers, Bishops, Cardinals, Teaching Authority of the Church and even the Holy Father!
As most are aware, for Catholics there are Nine Ways of being accessory to another’s sin:

By counsel.
By command.
By consent.
By provocation.
By praise or flattery.
By concealment.
By partaking.
By silence.
By defense of the ill done.

catholic.org/clife/prayers/sin.php
Many of these acts approved by popular culture, modernist, secular and societal law as a “right” for which many on the liberal left seek to have the Church’s approval are “Sins Crying to Heaven for Vengeance”. (It goes without saying that Vengeance belongs to God alone).

Pax vobiscum.

 

[rlg94086]

katherine2:

An athiest can support “pro-life” issues, too.
A protestant can believe in the Holy Trinity and support “pro-life”, but accept or promote racism, and they aren’t “dissenting” because they DON’T or CAN’T rely on 2000 years of Magesterial AUTHORITY on the matter. Those who reject the churches social teachings should, but don’t. What is the difference between that protestant and a Catholic racist??

Catholics shouldn’t reject social justice teachings, but these teachings are not the same as life issues. Abortion and contraception are clear cut. What does it mean to accept the Church’s teaching on social justice? There are different approaches.

Some examples from the catechism…

**CCC 2425 **“Reasonable regulation of the marketplace…is to be commended.” Okay. What’s “reasonable”? Other than extreme libertarians, I don’t know of too many people that believe in removing all regulations.

CCC 2432"Those *responsible for business enterprises…*have an obligation to consider the good of persons and not only the increase of *profits. *Profits are necessary, however. They make possible the investments that ensure the future of a business and they guarantee employment." So, how much profit? Is this a directive for government regulation or a call to Catholic business owners?

CCC 2434"A just wage is the legimate fruit of work…Remuneration for work should guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family on the material, social, cultural, and spiritual level, taking into account the role and the productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good." Okay. How much is a *just wage? *Doesn’t this vary by location? Does the Church say how just wages should be ensured?

Observant Catholics can disagree on how to meet these ends and what amount of responsibility belongs to the government. Observant Catholics can’t disagree on abortion, contraception, etc. They are black/white issues, and the teaching is very clear.

God Bless,

Robert.

 

[rlg94086]

Lisa4Catholics:

Thankyou very much for your answer. You have to wonder with all the media slamming the Pope for his teaching how they couldn’t know What exactly is the conscience theology?God Bless

Hi Lisa,

It is incorrect catechesis. Read through Part Three, Chapter One, Article 6 (1776-1802) in the Catechism. Some people teach that you must always follow your conscience in moral matters (1800). For example: If you have really prayed about it and decide that contraception is okay, you should follow your conscience and use contraception.

They ignore the Church teachings on formation of conscience: “The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgement and to reject authoritative teachings.”(1783)

I was incorrectly catechized when I converted. Luckily, I learned to form my conscience.

God Bless,

Robert.

 

[Viki59]

So many people don’t learn how to think.
It’s not taught in schools, or in our society. People have trouble following their beliefs to logical conclusions.
I think our best bet is to rely on prayer. One day after converting I woke up and thought, “Hey, abortion is wrong.” No conscious thought involved, it must have been the Holy Spirit working undercover. Let’s pray that all these confused people, especially the student who will be confirmed, will let God straighten out their thinking.
Rather than label such people dissenters, heretics or the like,(truthful though such labels might be) it would be more fruitful to encourage them to read the Bible or Catechism or other documents, and give some thought to their stand.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Pug:

Is confirmation normally a don’t ask don’t tell policy so that this situation doesn’t come up? RCIA is like that, except for being sure about a person’s marriage.

This is a case where she volunteered her opinion after class and even interrogated me as to whether I had to talk about abortion in the class. I would probably never grill anyone on their beliefs without a good substantial reason, but since she is the one who opened this can of worms, I am obligated to follow up on it.

Scott

 

[katherine2]

rlg94086:

Catholics shouldn’t reject social justice teachings, but these teachings are not the same as life issues. Abortion and contraception are clear cut. What does it mean to accept the Church’s teaching on social justice? .

God Bless,

Robert.

And at the end of your life, when you are standing before the Throne of Heaven, will you be comfortable saying “Lord, on the easy, clear, obvious issues, I followed Your way. But some others concerns were too complicated, too demanding of discernment and reflection, too difficult. Those I didn’t worry about”

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

katherine2:

And at the end of your life, when you are standing before the Throne of Heaven, will you be comfortable saying “Lord, on the easy, clear, obvious issues, I followed Your way. But some others concerns were too complicated, too demanding of discernment and reflection, too difficult. Those I didn’t worry about”

Katherine just so you do not misunderstand or overlook the rest of Roberts post.He NEVER said he didn’t discern and reflect and take action over the social issues.He said that he may disagree on how to help.But, help and action was never taken out of the equation.God Bless

 

[felra]

katherine2:

And at the end of your life, when you are standing before the Throne of Heaven, will you be comfortable saying “Lord, on the easy, clear, obvious issues, I followed Your way. But some others concerns were too complicated, too demanding of discernment and reflection, too difficult. Those I didn’t worry about”

“Lord, thank you for your grace to know and honor you on the essential, fundamental, life and death issues, now for the rest …” … This reflects God’s priorities much better than the misrepresented venacular in your version. See CCC Article 5, The Fifth Commandment 2258-2258-2317, for a chronological heirachy of life issues.

 

[ThornGenX]

Lisa4Catholics:

I think they are in dissent,but I would like to hear your take on it.If you have any documents from the Magestarium they would be appreciated.God Bless

I do not have any documents but I did hear something very good on a free CD I received from a Catholic Web Site. The CD on apologetics ended with the speaker tearing pages out of the Catechchism of the Catholic Church for every “doctrine” people often disagree with. He said something to the effect that if you could just ignore one doctrine, others have the right to do the same thing with others.

Soon, page after page would be torn out and though he stopped (mostly since the CD was coming to an end…and I think also his hour long discussion), you could see that if everyone could remove the page they didn’t agree with, there would be nothing left eventually. Bottom line, they are in dissent.

 

[jlw]

katherine2:

An athiest can support “pro-life” issues, too.
A protestant can believe in the Holy Trinity and support “pro-life”, but accept or promote racism, and they aren’t “dissenting” because they DON’T or CAN’T rely on 2000 years of Magesterial AUTHORITY on the matter. Those who reject the churches social teachings should, but don’t. What is the difference between that protestant and a Catholic racist??

All decent points to which I can’t disagree. AND…

The issue of life is VERY CLEAR.

The way to help the poor, and to *what degree *government should be involved IS NOT so clear cut, is it??

Are you saying that because I would prefer to be taxed less, and therefore have more money in my pocket FOR TYTHING, FOR CHARITY etc, I have somehow disobeyed Chruch teaching???

 

[Pug]

Scott Waddell:

This is a case where she volunteered

Scott, I will pray for her.