Are children conceived in rape a gift?

[Rico_S]

Exactly. Rape is a violent act, but it is still an act of free will. God would no more desire that kind of violence as he would murder or any other disordered act. **A child in this case would be a ray of sunshine **in the darkest of storms. Unfortunately we as a society have come to see children as purely something bourn only of our own desires and not gifts in and of themselves.

So, God forbid, if your 15 yr old daughter is raped, you would hope that she got pregnant so that something good would come out of it?

 

[7armyrugrats]

So, God forbid, if your 15 yr old daughter is raped, you would hope that she got pregnant so that something good would come out of it?

Don’t be ridiculous! Of course no one would ever want their child to be violated in ANY way. When I read that post, that was the farthest thought from my mind. What the poster was saying is that it is NOT the baby’s fault regardless of how he/she is conceived. The baby should be looked at as the innocent soul it is, not as a demon due to the circumstances surrounding its conception.

 

[Rico_S]

What the poster was saying is that it is NOT the baby’s fault regardless of how he/she is conceived. The baby should be looked at as the innocent soul it is, not as a demon due to the circumstances surrounding its conception.

Don’t disagree with any of that. 100% in agreement.

Just not in line with the whole, “child is a gift…silver lining” idea the poster was expressing–especially drawing on the notion that to think otherwise is b/c “see children as purely something born only of our own desires and not gifts in and of themselves.” I was trying to express that to not want a child as a result of a rape is not born of some twisted view of children not being gifts.

 

[7armyrugrats]

Don’t disagree with any of that. 100% in agreement.

Just not in line with the whole, “child is a gift…silver lining” idea the poster was expressing–especially drawing on the notion that to think otherwise is b/c “see children as purely something born only of our own desires and not gifts in and of themselves.” I was trying to express that to not want a child as a result of a rape is not born of some twisted view of children not being gifts.

Ok. I see your point now. I can, however, say that when it happened to me I actually did pray for my son. Thankfully my prayers were answered. To me, it just had to have happened for a reason. That being said, I COMPLETELY understand how the majority of women would pray for the opposite…that they wouldn’t need to see the face of that man ever again. The situation was different–we had been in a relationship and I thought We loved each other before that night. I don’t know how I would have felt/thought/coped if he had been a stranger or anyone else.

You know, this is probably going to come back to haunt me. I never have told my son the truth because I never wanted him to think he was anything besides an answered prayer. He is and always will be, but he doesn’t know why I prayed for him. My husband doesn’t even know. He knows that my son’s bio dad never wanted anything to do with us and quickly signed for my husband to adopt him when asked. Now I guess it no longer matters. It was 20 yrs ago and bio dad died in an accident about 7 yrs ago. It’s in the past so I know it should just stay there. This is the first time I have told people why this subject is so sensitive to me. I probably shouldn’t have. Oh well, if people are able to figure out who I am and want to tell everyone involved it is God saying they need to know.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Don’t disagree with any of that. 100% in agreement.

Just not in line with the whole, “child is a gift…silver lining” idea the poster was expressing–especially drawing on the notion that to think otherwise is b/c “see children as purely something born only of our own desires and not gifts in and of themselves.” I was trying to express that to not want a child as a result of a rape is not born of some twisted view of children not being gifts.

if there was a resultant child one could give the child up for adoption and make some family who can’t have children very happy so good could come out of it that way.

 

[PetrusRomanus]

God gave the gift of life to the child, not the child being a gift to the mother.

 

[Mulligan2]

*Note:The issues/questions I raise in this thread may be emotionally disturbing. I raise them in the interest of seeking both clarification and consistency.

I was reflecting on the controversial statement made by Richard Mourdock back in 2012, about his opposition to abortion in the cases of rape, for which took a lot of heat from both the media and Republican Party. He stated:

Some of his critics interpreted Mourdock’s statement to mean that pregnancies that result from rape are willed by God, and the reason his critics were scandalized at that suggestion is because the implication of it is not merely that God wills that we respect the human life conceived in rape, but also that that act of rape which caused the pregnancy, a new human life – was willed by God,

Now, I am sure that all of us Catholics naturally repulse at the latter suggestion because it is offensive and contrary to our faith and foundation of moral theology to maintain that God wills humans to commit sin, and rape is a sin and a mortal one at that.

Yet, we do have before ourselves a moral/theological difficulty to resolve. I am not sure how to articulate it so I will simply list the thoughts I have in mind at the moment and I am sure that the point I am trying to get at will speak for itself.

1. If all children are gifts/blessings, then it follows necessarily that children conceived in rape are gifts/blessings. Now a gift is precisely that, something which is given, and here the giver is God, since human life is a gift from God.
2. In every conception/pregnancy, irrespective of its circumstantial causes, there is a unique human being. A human being consists of a soul united to a body. The biological composition (i.e. body, or to use traditional language “flesh” ) of a human being is provided by the person’s parents. The soul however, is provided by God Himself. Therefore, in all conceptions/pregnancies there is a cooperation between God and man.

However, the same cannot be said about all deliberate avoidances of conceptions/pregnancies. Afterall, moral teaching tells us that contraception is evil and NFP is only conditionally permissible. So, it is entirely possible for avoidance of conception/pregnancy in this or that case to be contrary to God’s will.

1. The conditional permissibility of using emergency contraception (in cases of rape) gives us something interesting to consider:

Scenario A : Woman is raped, refuses recourse to emergency contraception, and conceives.

Scenario B (alternate “ending”): Woman is raped, uses emergency contraception, and prevents fertilization – which otherwise would have occurred ( I know, the latter part is not something we can know, but only God in His omniscience. But it is precisely God’s perspective that is the issue here).

Which of those scenarios was God’s will? Suppose the very human being conceived in scenario A is the very human being prevented from coming into existence in Scenario B.

In scenario B we would say the child conceived is a gift from God. The implications of this is that in scenario A the woman refused a gift from God.

I recall that the vast majority of people - including the vast majority of voters in Indiana - found Richard Mourdock’s comments to be insensitive, boorish, and wrong.

I think it is fair to say that many Catholics have complex thoughts on this issue, particularly as it might relate to public policy.

 

[jmcrae]

So, God forbid, if your 15 yr old daughter is raped, you would hope that she got pregnant so that something good would come out of it?

If she were pregnant, it would be with my grandchild, and my duty as a parent and grandparent would be to protect and care for both my daughter and my grandchild - regardless of how the situation came about.

 

[Robertanthony]

I’d like to probe the hearts of adoptees, well beyond the expected “I had good parents”. Adoption is never simple, emotion-wise. Loyalty conflicts, feeling different from half-siblings, fear of abandonment, and the list goes on. Some have described living in a fog. I don’t like this utlilitarian approach: crackhead gives birth while this couple plagued by infertility would do anything to have a child. So crackhead gives away child, couple is happy, crackhead is relieved of a responsibility and child gets a go at a normal life, he’ll get over this small abandonment thing in no time. Reality is more complex. Adoption is a terrible thing, really, you’re torn apart from the only person you have a symbiotic bond with.

God is not about giving gifts, he no doubt made the rules for procreation, and the rules will apply blindly whether it’s a father being incestuous, a teenage girl brutally raped or a meth-addicted couple living like hoarders do (with rotten pizza, dead cats lying under a ton of filth etc.), God made the rules and set the ball rolling. The ball goes where it pleases. This gift insanity has to stop. Seed meets egg, no magic, simple grade 9 biology. God would be pretty dumb to make a girl more miserable by bearing her father’s child. The incest is horrible, and the child is born in terrible circumstances, he’s not God’s gift, he’s the unfortunate result of an unnatural sexual intercourse. Which doesn’t deny its intrinsic value, dignity and need for love, warmth and acceptance. I’ll let the child determine when he’s of age if he considers his life a gift.

Everything happens through God’s will, sovereign or permissive. Not one thing happens that God doesn’t say yes to. From a fatherless boy bullied to the point where he commits suicide, to the Austrian young girl who was kidnapped and kept in a dungeon and mistreated on all levels for years, God says “yes” to all these things. They’re not gifts, more often than not, you won’t have the proverbial and cliché “greater good”, but they happen because this is how the world operates and God is not in the business of stopping every evil.

 

[Robertanthony]

Don’t disagree with any of that. 100% in agreement.

Just not in line with the whole, “child is a gift…silver lining” idea the poster was expressing–especially drawing on the notion that to think otherwise is b/c “see children as purely something born only of our own desires and not gifts in and of themselves.” ** I was trying to express that to not want a child as a result of a rape is not born of some twisted view of children not being gifts**.

I can’t make sense of what you’re trying to say, too many “nots” I guess.

 

[Aloysium]

I’d like to probe the hearts of adoptees, well beyond the expected “I had good parents”. Adoption is never simple, emotion-wise. Loyalty conflicts, feeling different from half-siblings, fear of abandonment, and the list goes on. Some have described living in a fog. I don’t like this utlilitarian approach: crackhead gives birth while this couple plagued by infertility would do anything to have a child. So crackhead gives away child, couple is happy, crackhead is relieved of a responsibility and child gets a go at a normal life, he’ll get over this small abandonment thing in no time. Reality is more complex. Adoption is a terrible thing, really, you’re torn apart from the only person you have a symbiotic bond with.

God is not about giving gifts, he no doubt made the rules for procreation, and the rules will apply blindly whether it’s a father being incestuous, a teenage girl brutally raped or a meth-addicted couple living like hoarders do (with rotten pizza, dead cats lying under a ton of filth etc.), God made the rules and set the ball rolling. The ball goes where it pleases. This gift insanity has to stop. Seed meets egg, no magic, simple grade 9 biology. God would be pretty dumb to make a girl more miserable by bearing her father’s child. The incest is horrible, and the child is born in terrible circumstances, he’s not God’s gift, he’s the unfortunate result of an unnatural sexual intercourse. Which doesn’t deny its intrinsic value, dignity and need for love, warmth and acceptance. I’ll let the child determine when he’s of age if he considers his life a gift.

Everything happens through God’s will, sovereign or permissive. Not one thing happens that God doesn’t say yes to. From a fatherless boy bullied to the point where he commits suicide, to the Austrian young girl who was kidnapped and kept in a dungeon and mistreated on all levels for years, God says “yes” to all these things. They’re not gifts, more often than not, you won’t have the proverbial and cliché “greater good”, but they happen because this is how the world operates and God is not in the business of stopping every evil.

you may have come to the right place
there is great beauty, comfort, peace, love and hope to be found in God
approach Him with your concerns

 

[pollynova]

I’d like to probe the hearts of adoptees, well beyond the expected “I had good parents”. Adoption is never simple, emotion-wise. Loyalty conflicts, feeling different from half-siblings, fear of abandonment, and the list goes on. Some have described living in a fog. I don’t like this utlilitarian approach: crackhead gives birth while this couple plagued by infertility would do anything to have a child. So crackhead gives away child, couple is happy, crackhead is relieved of a responsibility and child gets a go at a normal life, he’ll get over this small abandonment thing in no time. Reality is more complex. Adoption is a terrible thing, really, you’re torn apart from the only person you have a symbiotic bond with.

God is not about giving gifts, he no doubt made the rules for procreation, and the rules will apply blindly whether it’s a father being incestuous, a teenage girl brutally raped or a meth-addicted couple living like hoarders do (with rotten pizza, dead cats lying under a ton of filth etc.), God made the rules and set the ball rolling. The ball goes where it pleases. This gift insanity has to stop. Seed meets egg, no magic, simple grade 9 biology. God would be pretty dumb to make a girl more miserable by bearing her father’s child. The incest is horrible, and the child is born in terrible circumstances, he’s not God’s gift, he’s the unfortunate result of an unnatural sexual intercourse. Which doesn’t deny its intrinsic value, dignity and need for love, warmth and acceptance. I’ll let the child determine when he’s of age if he considers his life a gift.

Everything happens through God’s will, sovereign or permissive. Not one thing happens that God doesn’t say yes to. From a fatherless boy bullied to the point where he commits suicide, to the Austrian young girl who was kidnapped and kept in a dungeon and mistreated on all levels for years, God says “yes” to all these things. They’re not gifts, more often than not, you won’t have the proverbial and cliché “greater good”, but they happen because this is how the world operates and God is not in the business of stopping every evil.

I am the result of incestuous rape. You want to probe my heart?

Adoption is a terrible thing, really, you’re torn apart from the only person you have a symbiotic bond with.

I had to re-read that several times to make sure you didn’t mean abortion. I literally screamed out-loud, several things that would get me banned if I posted them. Adoption is a terrible thing? Our own Lord and Savoir spent his time on Earth as an adopted child! Yeah, we give all this honor to Mary to saying yes to God. How about Joseph? If not for him, Mary would have been dragged to the city gates and STONED TO DEATH! How DARE you say that adoption is a horrible thing when it saved the life of Christ Himself!

 

[7armyrugrats]

I am the result of incestuous rape. You want to probe my heart?

Adoption is a terrible thing, really, you’re torn apart from the only person you have a symbiotic bond with.

I had to re-read that several times to make sure you didn’t mean abortion. I literally screamed out-loud, several things that would get me banned if I posted them. Adoption is a terrible thing? Our own Lord and Savoir spent his time on Earth as an adopted child! Yeah, we give all this honor to Mary to saying yes to God. How about Joseph? If not for him, Mary would have been dragged to the city gates and STONED TO DEATH! How DARE you say that adoption is a horrible thing when it saved the life of Christ Himself!

God bless you. I’m so glad you were born. And yes, adoption is beautiful. No greater gift in this world and everyone involved wins–birth parents, adoptive parents and child. Thank you for chiming in.

All children are gifts from God, all life is gifted to us. Just because society no longer views it as such doesn’t make them any less precious gifts.

 

[carn]

Scenario A : Woman is raped, refuses recourse to emergency contraception, and conceives.

Scenario B (alternate “ending”): Woman is raped, uses emergency contraception, and prevents fertilization – which otherwise would have occurred ( I know, the latter part is not something we can know, but only God in His omniscience. But it is precisely God’s perspective that is the issue here).

Which of those scenarios was God’s will? Suppose the very human being conceived in scenario A is the very human being prevented from coming into existence in Scenario B.

In scenario B we would say the child conceived is a gift from God. The implications of this is that in scenario A the woman refused a gift from God.

She did refuse being raped. His sperm inside her is part of the rape, she is allowed to do whatever to keep it from affecting her, as long as third persons are not harmed.

And you forgot scenario C: During rape, but before he finishes, the women finally gets hold of her handbag, draws, points to the head and pulls the trigger. If she hadn’t otherwise he would have finished soon and she would have got pregnant. She got raped anyway, the only thing she realy achieved was not getting pregnant (aside from him never being able to repeat the crime).

Did she reject a gift from God?

 

[Rau]

…but if a child is conceived during a rape, you can be sure that God created that child on purpose and wills that he should become a Saint.

Again, God did not will the rape.

But when God saw the rape occurring, He chose to bring some good out of the situation, by creating a child.

Why do you assert that God “willed” anything here at all? Things happen in this world, by virtue of God’s laws of nature and the Free Will of men. We may do right or wrong, but I don’t agree that God is directing the action.

 

[Robertanthony]

I am the result of incestuous rape. You want to probe my heart?

Adoption is a terrible thing, really, you’re torn apart from the only person you have a symbiotic bond with.

I had to re-read that several times to make sure you didn’t mean abortion. I literally screamed out-loud, several things that would get me banned if I posted them. Adoption is a terrible thing? Our own Lord and Savoir spent his time on Earth as an adopted child! Yeah, we give all this honor to Mary to saying yes to God. How about Joseph? If not for him, Mary would have been dragged to the city gates and STONED TO DEATH! How DARE you say that adoption is a horrible thing when it saved the life of Christ Himself!

Pollynova, my problem is that people seem to take adoption too lightly. Humans are not wired to be separated from their birth parents. I don’t think adoption without deep feelings of conflict, identity crisis, a certain disarray and a host of negative feelings is possible. I don’t believe in fairy tales. I tend to think it’s felt like the little kid who gets left behind by the character played by Julianne Moore (who played his tormented mother) in The Hours, I’ve never nor will i ever see a more gut-wrenching scene than that one. We live in a fallen world, some have it good, some have it ok, some have it bad, this is where adoption comes into play, it is necessary but not the miracle solution people tout it as.

If you want to get things off your chest, you can PM me, don’t worry I won’t report you )), hence you won’t get banned. I admit I have radical ideas about life. If the life I’ve known was God’s idea, and not simply bio 101 seed meets egg, then it was indeed a very bad idea. Hurdles and challenges left and right, very little in the way of talent and potential= a crummy life (mine). If things have worked out well for you and you are in your heart of hearts genuinely happy and happy to be alive, then I’m really glad for you.

 

[Robertanthony]

Why do you assert that God “willed” anything here at all? Things happen in this world, by virtue of God’s laws of nature and the Free Will of men. We may do right or wrong, but I don’t agree that God is directing the action.

I agree. As a general rule. But I also believe that God can step in and intervene in the affairs of mice and men once in a while. For instance if you pray for safety for a car trip, you might get into an accident, but people around will probably stand amazed at how unlikely you were to come out of something like that unharmed or just slightly hurt.

 

[Aloysium]

She did refuse being raped. His sperm inside her is part of the rape, she is allowed to do whatever to keep it from affecting her, as long as third persons are not harmed.

And you forgot scenario C: During rape, but before he finishes, the women finally gets hold of her handbag, draws, points to the head and pulls the trigger. If she hadn’t otherwise he would have finished soon and she would have got pregnant. She got raped anyway, the only thing she realy achieved was not getting pregnant (aside from him never being able to repeat the crime).

Did she reject a gift from God?

i would not see it as rejecting a gift from God;
it’s not the same obviously as two people uniting in love
were a child conceived, it would be different matter
i think the distinctions are pretty obvious
what is your point?

 

[carn]

i would not see it as rejecting a gift from God;
it’s not the same obviously as two people uniting in love
were a child conceived, it would be different matter
i think the distinctions are pretty obvious
what is your point?

That there is no significant morale difference between using a gun during the rape and using a medicine, that prevents ovulation. There is only a practical difference that the former is more effective, works faster and has the side effect of good prevention of future crimes, but has the disadvantage of being more messy.

 

[gratus_fides]

This is a question that I have heard more than once over the years, in different contexts. It will never, of course and quite rightly too, be the case that human understanding will ever be able to fully grasp God’s purpose and planning that would otherwise explain all the content in our lives, from the wonderful, the truly awful, the confusing, enlightening and so on and this is where faith really comes into it’s own. More than this, trust. Without a doubt, EVERYTHING happens for a reason and if we can bring ourselves to live our lives in faith, acceptance and obedience, God though His actions as the Holy Spirit, will equip us with the strength and resilience to manage even the most difficult of events through grace.

I’m not just taking the ‘party line’ here. I don’t just believe this to be true. I know it. I have practised it. I have felt it. A cradle Catholic, born into a beautiful, kind, loving and devout small family (just one sister) I lost my Mum at age 5 but His grace eased the way, very considerably, for us through the love,compassion and care of our wider family, parish and community.

At age 21, I was raped in an unanticipated attack by someone I knew and subsequently discovered that I was expecting. As I had not been sexually active at that time, there was no question as to the accuracy of paternity. Though young, without family support nearby (but, happily, kindness, concern and love remained even though I had not told anyone about the rape but instead presented the father to them as a boyfriend, feeling this was preferable as I had told him about the baby and felt that every man has the right to know if he is to be a father, even though I wanted nothing to do with him). I have always been pro-life and there was no hesitation with my decision to go ahead and have the baby. I was grateful that I had work and a home and knew that, with God’s help, I would manage. It was humiliating because the community will have assumed that I must have been sleeping around or something but they were kind and supportive nonetheless. I have been quiet about what happened all these years and only recently started to be open about it, for a variety of reasons. Yes, it has made my personal life very difficult for obvious reasons, until last year when God started to reveal His hand, a little, once He caught my full attention through a man who has brought me such joy, healing and love but over and above all, an explosion in my faith and devotion to God.

Yes, life has been a challenge (I am 41 now and she is 19), she was not an easy child but as she grew, so did I. We learn so much from our children - and not just the I.T. stuff or how to use our mobile 'phones! Difficult she may often have been, at times, but I am proud of her, nonetheless and I have always known that she has her role to play in His plan, too.

Life has changed dramatically for me in the last of year: since the start of the Year of Faith. I had not been attending Church for years but developed spiritual gifts that can have come from only one source and so I have placed all trust in Him and now do my utmost to follow where He leads, as He clearly has a purpose in mind. There have been two spiritually very challenging, one of them terrifying, ocurrences in the last 12 months. Remarkably, I was able to understand how the rape was connected to the first and praying first, in an effort to understand what to do to progress matters, realised that forgiveness and compassion were the answer; as always, love is the answer. It worked, of course. Subsequently, I was able to use those lessons learned about the power of forgiveness when undertaken in prayer with faith and love, and then apply them in some highly unusual and unexpected circumstances, in order to help others. This was only the tip of the iceberg, as it turns out and God only can know where it’s heading but that’s good enough for me. As soon as I made the decision to follow and humbly asked Him to take me, mould me, teach and guide me, with no expectation of return, only a desire to help, my life changed. It’s not easy but it is much, much richer. I’m listening now and pray that those who find themselves in similar situations will call on Him with hearts,minds and souls open in love and faith, in order to feel and know, thus to enjoy His endless love and support for us all.