Are conservative Catholics over-emphasizing Mary?

[garysibio]

If you are truly Catholic, then it is impossible to venerate Mary more than we worship Christ. The Most Holy Sacrifice of the mass is greater than all the hyper-dulia we could ever offer in a lifetime (or eternity, for that matter).

Focusing our prayer lives on Mary is not at any rate unhealthy. When you take these prayers to the offering at mass, the prayers return to Christ through Mary, and it becomes about Christ. When you receive, it is Christ who is physically present and mingling with your flesh, while Mary is only spiritually present with all the other angels and saints.

The only way I can see that you could “worship” Mary is believing her to be a god, and offering her the Holy Sacrifice of the mass. It’s fruitless, because Latria is reserved for God, and Mary is by no means a god. Mary will completely and utterly reject your “worship” (sacrilege).

Any and all* veneration* you give her she gives to her son. She keeps none of it. She offers you in her prayers, and says, “look my son, here is a person in need. I ask that you help them.” And then Christ helps us, or gives Mary the power to help us.

I understand this. I am talking about people who, IMO, have gone from the teachings of the Catholic Church on the Blessed Mother and have crossed into Maryolatry.

 

[garysibio]

Think of the Wedding Feast at Cana.

Jesus did not really want to “fix” the embarrassing situation their friends faced, when the wine ran out.

His Mother, Mary, … what did she do? … she just about “insulted” Jesus, the Son of God! … she ignored Jesus and His objection “Woman!, my time has not yet come!”]. Mary turned to the waiter and said, “Do what He tells you to do.”

And so, Jesus … pretty much venerated His own Mother … Mary didn’t know what He was going to do! … She only knew that Jesus would “fix it”.

Can you imagine!

[In my head, I visualize Jesus being played for television by that actor, John Ratzenberger, who plays a mailman in the television program, “Cheers”. Jesus was a Carpenter and He got criticized for spending too much time in bars. So, when His mother orders Him to fix the problem … I can see Ratzenberger saying … “Awww… Ma!!!”. "]

So, what will happen if Mary tells Jesus to give you a free pass into Heaven?

So … say the Rosary each day.

It might we worth it.

**

Gee, Monte. How did people who lived before there was a rosary get saved?

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I have seen instances where Mary was “venerated” to the extent that Jesus was secondary, if at all.

This is your opinion. Opinion is not to be confused with Truth. You cannot know this.

On the flip side, I think that younger Catholics, only using those that I have seen, may hardly give her a thought. Part of this problem comes from (another thread) the lack of TEACHING the faith during Homilies. Thank God I’ve experienced excellenty preaching/teaching.

On a side note, I have previously made a decision not to pray the Hail Mary with groups of other, almost exclusively older, Catholics. Why? I can not speed-speak the words as fast as they due and I honestly feel that there is little “prayer” going on. Just “ger-r-done”. It usually takes these groups about 15 minutes from start to finish. If you watch Mother Angelica’s Rosary broadcast, I think you see a wonderful example. Personally, I have learned the applicable verses and recite them after saying “the first …” It takes me about 30 minutes +/- to pray the Rosary.

The Rosary is a contempletative prayer about the mysteries, not the individual prayers, which are like background music to the meditation. Pray it however you wish. And allow others to do the same, without criticism. You should judge yourself and not others. You have no way of knowing what others – either young are old – are thinking during prayer. Criticizing others at prayer and congratulating yourself for doing it “better” reminds me of the story of the Pharisee and the publican in Luke 18:10.

Jim Dandy

 

[garysibio]

This is your opinion. Opinion is not to be confused with Truth. You cannot know this.

The Rosary is a contempletative prayer about the mysteries, not the individual prayers, which are like background music to the meditation. Pray it however you wish. And allow others to do the same, without criticism. You should judge yourself and not others. You have no way of knowing what others – either young are old – are thinking during prayer. Criticizing others at prayer and congratulating yourself for doing it “better” reminds me of the story of the Pharisee and the publican in Luke 18:10.

Jim Dandy

You can, however, form judgements based on what they tell you.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I understand this. I am talking about people who, IMO, have gone from the teachings of the Catholic Church on the Blessed Mother and have crossed into Maryolatry.

There is no way you can know this about anyone. Your opinion should be kept to yourself. This is gossip at best, or bearing false witness. The correct word is Mariolatry. You are not the judge of other people’s spirituality. That’s Christ’s job, not yours.

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

You can, however, form judgements based on what they tell you.

Posting your judgment on a public forum is, in my opinion, sinful. You bring discredit to the Church.

Jim Dandy

 

[garysibio]

There is no way you can know this about anyone. Your opinion should be kept to yourself. This is gossip at best, or bearing false witness. The correct word is Mariolatry. You are not the judge of other people’s spirituality. That’s Christ’s job, not yours.

Jim Dandy

That’s a pretty judgemental statement for you to make.

 

[garysibio]

Posting your judgment on a public forum is, in my opinion, sinful. You bring discredit to the Church.

Jim Dandy

Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Gee, Monte. How did people who lived before there was a rosary get saved?

Well, people were perfectly able to ask Mary for help before the Rosary was thought of.

And it was probably a good idea.

Even before the Rosary.

How many got saved?

I have no idea.

But, we are dealing with us today, and we have more resources available to us today than before.

Interesting question, though … what we would need to do would be to look at the writings of the early, first century, Church fathers. See what they included in their writings and homilies.

In addition, the writer with the largest respository of writing that has survived is probably St. Augustine from the late 300’s. Probably find his work on-line.

It would make a good project.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

But why are you focusing, gary, on ‘conservative Catholics?’

I have had many experiences of the more ‘liberal’ if you will Catholics who tell me point blank that Jesus --the ‘historical Jesus’, of course, never REALLY rose from the dead and the whole point of the Catholic Church is service to the poor which is ALL Jesus’ message was really about.

IOW, they talk about Jesus all right, but it’s the Jesus who is that ‘good man, not god’ and he’s only one of MANY examples of good ‘behavior’.

Now, do I go around asking why "liberal Catholics de-emphasize Christ’s Divinity’?

I don’t. . .because while it is true that I have heard more than a FEW who identify themselves as such and who don’t believe in Jesus as God, I also have heard more than a few who identify themselves as such and DO believe in Christ’s divinity.

Just as more than a few conservative Catholics not only treat Mary appropriately but have an incredible devotion and love for Christ built ON THAT SOLID FOUNDATION.

IOW, I don’t take the words or the ‘appearances’ of a small group whom I ‘label’ and then accuse the whole group of something based on those words, etc.

**Because quite frankly that would be silly. **

Blanket statements usually are not the way to win friends and influence people, and blanket ‘queries’ whereby a whole group is accused of something ‘wrong’ are usually found, on careful and unbiased investigation, to result from misunderstandings on the part of the poster and a too-ready willingness to leap to conclusions without making sure of the facts. . .IMO.

 

[garysibio]

But why are you focusing, gary, on ‘conservative Catholics?’

I have had many experiences of the more ‘liberal’ if you will Catholics who tell me point blank that Jesus --the ‘historical Jesus’, of course, never REALLY rose from the dead and the whole point of the Catholic Church is service to the poor which is ALL Jesus’ message was really about.

IOW, they talk about Jesus all right, but it’s the Jesus who is that ‘good man, not god’ and he’s only one of MANY examples of good ‘behavior’.

Now, do I go around asking why "liberal Catholics de-emphasize Christ’s Divinity’?

I don’t. . .because while it is true that I have heard more than a FEW who identify themselves as such and who don’t believe in Jesus as God, I also have heard more than a few who identify themselves as such and DO believe in Christ’s divinity.

Just as more than a few conservative Catholics not only treat Mary appropriately but have an incredible devotion and love for Christ built ON THAT SOLID FOUNDATION.

IOW, I don’t take the words or the ‘appearances’ of a small group whom I ‘label’ and then accuse the whole group of something based on those words, etc.

**Because quite frankly that would be silly. **

Blanket statements usually are not the way to win friends and influence people, and blanket ‘queries’ whereby a whole group is accused of something ‘wrong’ are usually found, on careful and unbiased investigation, to result from misunderstandings on the part of the poster and a too-ready willingness to leap to conclusions without making sure of the facts. . .IMO.

I already stated in another msg that saying “conservative Catholics” was an unfortunate choice of terms. I consider myself a conservative Catholic. I certainly was not referring to all conservative Catholics. On the other hand I’ve never run into a Catholic whose Marian devotion crossed the line in my opinion who denied the Eucharist or the necessity of confession. However, sedevacantists also believe these things. It’s possible to fall off the barque of Peter on the left side or the right.

 

[Hboggs]

This is your opinion. Opinion is not to be confused with Truth. You cannot know this.

The Rosary is a contempletative prayer about the mysteries, not the individual prayers, which are like background music to the meditation. Pray it however you wish. And allow others to do the same, without criticism. You should judge yourself and not others. You have no way of knowing what others – either young are old – are thinking during prayer. Criticizing others at prayer and congratulating yourself for doing it “better” reminds me of the story of the Pharisee and the publican in Luke 18:10.
of
Jim Dandy

I stand by my remarks as written. I simply offered observations and never intended any “better” comment. However, if you are defending the “speed-speakers”, then maybe you need to reconsider. It is this type of “action” that deservedly gives Catholics a bad rap.

 

[Monica4316]

I don’t think it’s possible to over-emphasize Mary because she leads us to her Son… as long as we know that she is a creature, and not God, and as long as we come to her to come closer to Jesus and to learn to love Him, - we can’t over-emphasize her. Jesus is pleased when we honour His Mother

God bless

 

[Allegra]

hey when does veneration becoming worship and can someone give an example srry i have no answer God bless

This might not be a clear example, but I’ve known people to use rosaries and Marian images like a rabbit’s foot. or lucky charm. They carry them around, even wear them around their necks, and act as though the presence of the object itself will protect them from evil. Obviously, the point of the the object is to help a person contemplate the life of Christ and bring the person closer to God through prayer. I think Mary’s role in our prayer life should work the same way. If our prayer to her is attempting to get around God and not to him, it is a problem. Of course, no one knows simply by observing a person if that is the case. However, I suspect it is a problem based on things I’ve heard other Catholics say.

 

[Blenderx]

I stand by my remarks as written. I simply offered observations and never intended any “better” comment. However, if you are defending the “speed-speakers”, then maybe you need to reconsider. It is this type of “action” that deservedly gives Catholics a bad rap.

I pray my rosary at what is a natural pace for me. I neither purposely speed up the vocal prayers, or slow them down. Its just a natural pace while I pray and meditate on the mysteries of our faith. It takes me about 15 minutes. Get over yourself.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

This might not be a clear example, but I’ve known people to use rosaries and Marian images like a rabbit’s foot. or lucky charm. They carry them around, even wear them around their necks, and act as though the presence of the object itself will protect them from evil. Obviously, the point of the the object is to help a person contemplate the life of Christ and bring the person closer to God through prayer. I think Mary’s role in our prayer life should work the same way. If our prayer to her is attempting to get around God and not to him, it is a problem. Of course, no one knows simply by observing a person if that is the case. However, I suspect it is a problem based on things I’ve heard other Catholics say.

You see a lucky charm … they see a constant reminder to pray always.

These rosaries and Miraculous Medals remind them to pray always. The rosary in their pocket … whenever they reach for something they feel the rosary and it reminds them to pray. The painting of Jesus in my office next to my computer … it reminds me to pray.

So, you are attributing something to another person, which may be a false attribution.

We don’t know what is in peoples’ minds and hearts.

Just because someone has a statue of Mary on their front lawn, doesn’t mean they put Mary ahead of Jesus.

Some people name their children “Jesus” out of respect and some people do NOT name their children “Jesus” out of respect.

It is important for us not to attribute motives and motivations to other people.

We can guess at, but we have no real way of knowing, what is in peoples’ hearts … and we have no right to speak about that. Because after a short while, our speaking about other people … starts into their motivations … and then gets into criticism … and then into accusation … and it is all baseless and without foundation.

 

[CountrySteve]

You see a lucky charm … they see a constant reminder to pray always.

These rosaries and Miraculous Medals remind them to pray always. The rosary in their pocket … whenever they reach for something they feel the rosary and it reminds them to pray. The painting of Jesus in my office next to my computer … it reminds me to pray.

So, you are attributing something to another person, which may be a false attribution.

We don’t know what is in peoples’ minds and hearts.

Just because someone has a statue of Mary on their front lawn, doesn’t mean they put Mary ahead of Jesus.

Some people name their children “Jesus” out of respect and some people do NOT name their children “Jesus” out of respect.

It is important for us not to attribute motives and motivations to other people.

We can guess at, but we have no real way of knowing, what is in peoples’ hearts … and we have no right to speak about that. Because after a short while, our speaking about other people … starts into their motivations … and then gets into criticism … and then into accusation … and it is all baseless and without foundation.

and the good Lord Himself said not too judge others

 

[Allegra]

You see a lucky charm … they see a constant reminder to pray always.

These rosaries and Miraculous Medals remind them to pray always. The rosary in their pocket … whenever they reach for something they feel the rosary and it reminds them to pray. The painting of Jesus in my office next to my computer … it reminds me to pray.

So, you are attributing something to another person, which may be a false attribution.

We don’t know what is in peoples’ minds and hearts.

Just because someone has a statue of Mary on their front lawn, doesn’t mean they put Mary ahead of Jesus.

Some people name their children “Jesus” out of respect and some people do NOT name their children “Jesus” out of respect.

It is important for us not to attribute motives and motivations to other people.

We can guess at, but we have no real way of knowing, what is in peoples’ hearts … and we have no right to speak about that. Because after a short while, our speaking about other people … starts into their motivations … and then gets into criticism … and then into accusation … and it is all baseless and without foundation.

You don’t know what they are thinking any more than I do. Are you in a position to say that every single person I’ve observed exhibiting these behaviors is thinking exactly what you say they are? As I said, I realize that I can’t read people’s minds. However, based on conversations I’ve had with individuals that I’ve observed, I suspect this may be a problem and something for Catholics to be aware of. I haven’t accused anyone of anything.

 

[Allegra]

and the good Lord Himself said not too judge others

And yet, we are responsible for our own actions. Therefore it is right to use judgement to determine what is leading someone closer to or away from God. Or would you have everyone simply ignore potential spiritual problems and just assume they don’t exist?

 

[Monte_RCMS]

There is no way you can know this about anyone. Your opinion should be kept to yourself. This is gossip at best, or bearing false witness. The correct word is Mariolatry. You are not the judge of other people’s spirituality. That’s Christ’s job, not yours.

Jim Dandy

Good summary.