Are conservative Catholics over-emphasizing Mary?

[garysibio]

Oh, that’s not what I meant at all. I am a lover of St. Francis de Sales as well. I meant to show you that the eminent place of Mary in the spiritual life is not my own invention but the teaching of many holy people. My concern for people who neglect Our Lady is especially grounded in the writings of St. Louis.

I’m not saying that there should be no devotion to Mary. I see her as the perfect example of the Christian life. What concerns me are people I’ve heard who say or imply that all our prayers should be directed to Mary and don’t consider Jesus much at all. It bothers me that I never see anyone kneeling before the crucifix but there is always a crowd in front of the statue of Mary. We say that Mary’s purpose is to point us to Jesus but we seem to never get past her and get around to looking at Jesus. I believe that Mary, being humble, is disturbed by this excessive devotion.

 

[formerlysure]

I’m having a little trouble understanding what is so complicated about realizing it is possible to exceed those boundaries; otherwise we would need not be given that enjoinment. I have only taken issue, myself, with those who have implied if others don’t feel the way they do, there is insincerity in the question, or even a purposeful kind of dissension.

I supose anything can be done to excess, but of all the excesses in the world, without meaning to invalidate your point at all, I just feel that excessive veneration of the Blessed Virgin is probably the least of our problems! And I’ve never seen an example of the problem that is being expressed with the question - I don’t think those of us who don’t see it as a problem mean to be dismissive or rude in any way, we perhaps just don’t think it’s a problem. Funny that I kind of felt the same way with the response to my honest opinion on the question - like because I disagreed, I was somehow being nasty or whatever - not at all, I just think it’s wonderful if people celebrate Mary, and feel that even if those who are doing so with inadequate attention to Jesus are opening a door - God can speak to us through her, just as we can speak to Him through Her, so I just think it’s good the conversation is happening. Does that make sense?

 

[TimothyH]

You don’t know what they are thinking any more than I do. Are you in a position to say that every single person I’ve observed exhibiting these behaviors is thinking exactly what you say they are? As I said, I realize that I can’t read people’s minds. However, based on conversations I’ve had with individuals that I’ve observed, I suspect this may be a problem and something for Catholics to be aware of. I haven’t accused anyone of anything.

Remember that the earliest Christians were willing to die for the bones of the saints and other articles of faith.

So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them. (Acts 19:11)

Many miracles have happened and continue to happen at places where relics were stored, by touching things which touched holy people, and by coming in contact with things which were blessed - sacramentals.

*She said, “If I but touch his clothes, I shall be cured.” Immediately her flow of blood dried up. She felt in her body that she was healed of her affliction. Jesus, aware at once that power had gone out from him, turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who has touched my clothes?” … The woman, realizing what had happened to her, approached in fear and trembling. She fell down before Jesus and told him the whole truth. He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has saved you. Go in peace and be cured of your affliction." (Mark 5:28-30,33-34) *

What some see as a potential problem, other’s see as a loss of faith in the supernatural - that God is is a spirit who transcends creation, controls matter, and even holds it in existence. And so I’ll cut to the chase…

What of the Eucharist?

The way I look at it is, if a priest can command that the Holy Spirit change bread and wine into the body and blood of the Second Person of the Trinity - Jesus Christ - then surely satan can be made to flee when he sees that I hold in my hand a rosary blessed by that very same priest and used to pray to the Mother who made that seme flesh present.

St. Benedict made the sign of the cross over a glass of poisoned drink and the glass cracked and the drink spilt. God worked through Mose’s and Aaron’s rod. God created matter. God controls matter. Jesus walked on water. And I have enough faith in that to carry a rosary and wear a miraculous medal.

I don’t see a problem.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

I’m not saying that there should be no devotion to Mary. I see her as the perfect example of the Christian life. What concerns me are people I’ve heard who say or imply that all our prayers should be directed to Mary and don’t consider Jesus much at all. It bothers me that I never see anyone kneeling before the crucifix but there is always a crowd in front of the statue of Mary. We say that Mary’s purpose is to point us to Jesus but we seem to never get past her and get around to looking at Jesus. I believe that Mary, being humble, is disturbed by this excessive devotion.

When you pray to Mary, you pray to Jesus, who is in heaven seated right next to her. When we look at Mary, we look at Jesus, who is seated in heaven right next to her.

Why is it that those who don’t understand strong devotions to Mary act toward people who do have strong devotions like we are some kind of quacks who just don’t get it? We are treated like aetheists treat Christians, like believers in fairy tales who are not in touch with reality.

Prayer to Mary is prayer to Jesus. They cannot be seperated. You don’t get past Mary or around Mary to get to Jesus. You go through Mary to Jesus because Jesus came through Mary to get to you. The Church - Christ’s Body - came to you through Mary. God willed that the Second Person of the Trinity come into creation through Mary and he wills that creation go through Mary to get back to him.

Mary is not an obstacle. She is a shortcut.

50 years ago there was none of this nonsense. If you asked anyone what the quickest way to get to Jesus was, they would answer “The Blessed Mother” and not an eyebrow would raise. If you go to an Eastern Catholic Church, you will be blown away at the level of devotion to Mary, and in their Church you might as well be a Southern Baptist as to say that Mary is an obstacle to Jesus or something to get around or someone to get past.

This whole idea that veneration of the Blessed Virgin who God willed to come into creation through is “too much” or “over the top” is a minority view in the worldwide Catholic Church, both now and through the Church’s history.

-Tim-

 

[Lutgardis]

When you pray to Mary, you pray to Jesus, who is in heaven seated right next to her. When we look at Mary, we look at Jesus, who is seated in heaven right next to her.

Why is it that those who don’t understand strong devotions to Mary act toward people who do have strong devotions like we are some kind of quacks who just don’t get it? We are treated like aetheists treat Christians, like believers in fairy tales who are not in touch with reality.

Prayer to Mary is prayer to Jesus. They cannot be seperated. You don’t get past Mary or around Mary to get to Jesus. You go through Mary to Jesus because Jesus came through Mary to get to you. The Church - Christ’s Body - came to you through Mary. God willed that the Second Person of the Trinity come into creation through Mary and he wills that creation go through Mary to get back to him.

Mary is not an obstacle. She is a shortcut.

50 years ago there was none of this nonsense. If you asked anyone what the quickest way to get to Jesus was, they would answer “The Blessed Mother” and not an eyebrow would raise. If you go to an Eastern Catholic Church, you will be blown away at the level of devotion to Mary, and in their Church you might as well be a Southern Baptist as to say that Mary is an obstacle to Jesus or something to get around or someone to get past.

This whole idea that veneration of the Blessed Virgin who God willed to come into creation through is “too much” or “over the top” is a minority view in the worldwide Catholic Church, both now and through the Church’s history.
-Tim-

You keep insinuating that devotion to the Blessed Virgin bothers some. Why we seem baffled is because no matter how many times we express that we are devoted to her as well as you–you just keep making a false argument that we oppose devotion to the mother of our Lord. On love and devotion to her, everyone agrees! But that was never the point of this whole thread. Worship–latria–is only to God; He is first. He is the primary focus of our faith. We are enjoined by this teaching, and the teachings of Vatican II which Gary sited to you, to take care that we express our faith reverently and properly, in a manner befitting love and honor to the one who is blessed among women, but also in acknowledgment of the difference between God Himself and any other.

Perhaps you are among those who feel it is impossible to misstep in this area because no matter what we give to Mary, she gives it, in turn, to Jesus and will not “allow” us to give to her what should be His. This view implies that we are not accountable for the disposition of our own hearts, that Mary can take what we should only give to God and make it right by handing to God, to whom it rightly belongs. This is erroneous.

Praying to Mary and praying to Jesus is not the same thing. We can ask Mary to intercede for us; we can ask for the intercession of Saints; we cannot say praying to Mary is the same as praying to Jesus. Jesus and Mary are not interchangeable. And no one has implied that Mary is an obstacle–but only that it is possible that we ourselves make her one. Wouldn’t you agree that the “Mary is God” movement is over the top–or is Mary securing our favor with God on that one, too?

 

[drforjc]

Wouldn’t you agree that the “Mary is God” movement is over the top

I’d agree, but I’ve never seen such a movement in actual fact.

 

[TimothyH]

Wouldn’t you agree that the “Mary is God” movement is over the top–or is Mary securing our favor with God on that one, too?

There is no “Mary is God” movement. What some wrongly see as a “Mary is God” movement is a well established, pious tradition of the Church.

tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/829

No less a man than Blessed Pope John Paul II had made an act of total consecration to Jesus through the hands of Mary and stated that it was the turning point in his spiritual life. God willing, I will join him in doing so, on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception this December 8.

-Tim-

 

[Lutgardis]

I’m sorry if I made you feel that way. I know how that feels–not very good; I guess we must just agree to disagree about this issue. God bless.

 

[losh14]

I’m not saying that there should be no devotion to Mary. I see her as the perfect example of the Christian life. What concerns me are people I’ve heard who say or imply that all our prayers should be directed to Mary and don’t consider Jesus much at all.

You have a point. The preponderance of devotions - on the back of the Missalette, promulgated by confraternities, even just the times I see the Blue Army praying the Rosary in the mornings before I go to work - are to Mary. Perhaps they consider Jesus deeply and intimately but not obviously, but the external is so profoundly focused on Mary in form that you can be excused to wonder about the substance.

It bothers me that I never see anyone kneeling before the crucifix but there is always a crowd in front of the statue of Mary. We say that Mary’s purpose is to point us to Jesus but we seem to never get past her and get around to looking at Jesus. I believe that Mary, being humble, is disturbed by this excessive devotion.

If the purpose of personal devotion is to be received in closer intimacy with the target of devotion, then the preponderance of Marian devotions and lack of devotions to Christ means that Jesus remains in the Eucharist but is mostly approached through Mary otherwise. Is this distance healthy?

 

[losh14]

When you pray to Mary, you pray to Jesus, who is in heaven seated right next to her.

“Pray for us sinners…” that’s a prayer to Mary, asking intercession with Jesus on our behalf.
“Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.” That’s a prayer to Jesus.

When we look at Mary, we look at Jesus, who is seated in heaven right next to her.

When we look at Mary we see Mary, a created being assumed into Heaven. When we look at Jesus, we see the Divine, the Uncreated, the Eternal.

Why is it that those who don’t understand strong devotions to Mary act toward people who do have strong devotions like we are some kind of quacks who just don’t get it? We are treated like aetheists treat Christians, like believers in fairy tales who are not in touch with reality.

Funny, I’ve gotten the same feeling in three of these threads so far that a Catholic who does not practice Marian veneration is less of a Catholic. In a faith that is centered on, built upon, nourished by, and fully dependent upon Christ, it is right to ask whether attention drawn to one who is not Christ is a good pursuit. Jesus is not Mary and Mary is not Jesus. Mary did not die on the Cross with Jesus - she was present at His side and suffered her own sufferings, not His. By Mary’s sword we were not healed, but by Christ’s stripes. To Christ should go the honor and the glory and the praise.

I think this was the sense that started this thread, the very legitimate question of whether we can emphasize Mary too much, to the point that it becomes a detriment to our deepening in Christ.

Little things engender this suspcision. That parishes have Rosary groups but not a Bible study, that the Blue Army has more regular members every morning than show up all day at the Adoration Chapel. That more Catholic homes in our neighborhood have a statue of Mary in the garden than a statue of Christ. A conversation overhead among some in our parish that if Jesus won’t answer your prayer, Mary will.

And bigger things, too. The letters and movements and apostolates all pushing for the fifth Marian doctrine on co-redemptrix to be made dogma. The numerous apparitions of Mary, without Christ, giving us cryptic messages.

And then things like this:

Prayer to Mary is prayer to Jesus. They cannot be seperated.

50 years ago there was none of this nonsense.

That was then. This is now, a new generation asking questions and wanting answers.

This whole idea that veneration of the Blessed Virgin who God willed to come into creation through is “too much” or “over the top” is a minority view in the worldwide Catholic Church, both now and through the Church’s history.

Is it the veneration, or the how of it, combined with the arguments for Mary’s exalted position, titles, and faculties. I cringe every time I have to explain to a non-Catholic why the taxis downtown have an ad on top that says “Our Virgin of Guadeloupe, Empress to All the Americas!” and what that has to do with Jesus Christ.

 

[losh14]

Well, interesting perspective. No disrespect or bullying silencing intended. I guess where I’m coming from is that the Blessed Mother and saints are integral to our faith, which teaches us to revere and pray to them for intercession.

Well-intended and respectful, thank you.
I think the thread isn’t so much about excising the saints as understanding what we are to do with them and what that has to do with our relationship with the Trinity.

 

[Fiasco]

Funny, I’ve gotten the same feeling in three of these threads so far that a Catholic who does not practice Marian veneration is less of a Catholic.

I think this was the sense that started this thread, the very legitimate question of whether we can emphasize Mary too much, to the point that it becomes a detriment to our deepening in Christ.

Little things engender this suspcision . . .

And bigger things, too. The letters and movements and apostolates all pushing for the fifth Marian doctrine on co-redemptrix to be made dogma. The numerous apparitions of Mary, without Christ, giving us cryptic messages.

Is it the veneration, or the how of it, combined with the arguments for Mary’s exalted position, titles, and faculties. I cringe every time I have to explain to a non-Catholic why the taxis downtown have an ad on top that says “Our Virgin of Guadeloupe, Empress to All the Americas!” and what that has to do with Jesus Christ.

I have to agree. If we could stick to the Churchs teachings (including safeguards) on Marian devotions, wed be OK.

Some folks on these forums may be fortunate enough never to have experienced over-the-top Mary devotees, but I`m not one of them. In my own experience, the ones who chase after alleged apparitions and locutions are the worst, and they definitely look down their noses at the rest of us.

One fan(atic) of unapproved Marian “apparitions” told me that she regards our Lady as an extension of the Blessed Trinity! What would a non-Catholic think, even if she doesnt quite mean that Marys divine?

Theres a place in Normandy, France, where a "locutionist" who calls herself "JNSR" was told by "Heaven" that Mary was conceived the same way that her Son was. JNSR tried to see the pope, but Satan stopped her from getting in . . . probably in the shape of a couple of alert Swiss Guards! But, until this new "revelation" is added to the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception, the Catholic Church is disobeying Heaven. Dont kid yourselves, folks: I know a fair few people who follow Dozule! One of them said to me: “You should wait for the Church to judge, before condemning it.”!!!

There are Catholics who refer to Mary as “She”, “Her” and “Hers”. Again, when a non-Catholic sees that, and sees the personal pronouns for God spelt with a lower case “h”, he has every right to draw conclusions. I saw that very thing on a poster someone composed, and I could NOT convince her that it was wrong! To make it worse, she was given archdoicesan approval to pass out hundreds of copies.

These over-the-top Marian devotees bring ridicule on the Church. A lot of them refuse to accept the truth that** PUBLIC **Revelation ceased when Saint John died, so when a condemned “apparition” or “locution” contradicts the Church, they go with “Heaven”: "Hes a** BAD **bishop!" They dont care about scandalizing non-Catholics. Some of them even regard non-Catholics with contempt.
If a priest isnt "Marian", hes no good . . .
Etc.

In the end, theres so much evidence that it cant be ignored.
If they spent less time going to “Marian” get-togethers and reading “Apparition” magazines, and more time learning about the Faith, we`d all be better off.
Satan knows how to trap us and dilute our energy.

Gary: your concerns are legitimate.

 

[simple_soul]

*In dwelling on this thread some more and in following the posts on this one and others I am wondering if the question is not so much about over-emphasizing the importance of Mary and her role but more about how sound of an understanding of her role and the importance of it is do we have?
On a different thread someone posted some excerpts from St. Louis De Montfort’s True Devotion to Mary and I found this one to be of interest;

1. If then we are establishing sound devotion to our Blessed Lady, it is only in order to establish devotion to our Lord more perfectly, by providing a smooth but certain way of reaching Jesus Christ. If devotion to our Lady distracted us from our Lord, we would have to reject it as an illusion of the devil.

But this is far from being the case. As I have already shown and will show again later on, this devotion is necessary, simply and solely because it is a way of reaching Jesus perfectly, loving him tenderly, and serving him
faithfully.
So I beleive the question really is what is a sound devotion to Our Blessed Mother Mary?
The way I understand it is, we have to have a sound devotion to our Blessed Mother Mary in order for it to lead us to Jesus Christ.
So how do we know if we are sound in our devotion to our Blessed Mother Mary?
Well, I believe in the saying; “You will know them by their fruit.” So if the fruit of our devotion to Mary allows us to practice love of God and love of neighbor and allows Jesus to transform us into the Christ-like image of Himself that we are called to be and allows us to continue to bring Him into the world, then I would say our devotion to Mary is sound.
If we are not being Christ-like in our thoughts words or deeds, then I would be lead to believe that the devotion we have for our Blessed Mother Mary is not sound and that it is an illusion of the devil.
Please do not get me wrong. I do agree with St. Louis that devotion to Mary is necessary, simply and solely because it is a way of reaching Jesus perfectly, loving him tenderly, and serving him faithfully. But if we are not reaching Jesus perfectly, loving Him tenderly, and serving Him faithfully, then I believe we could be falling into an illusion of what a True Devotion to Mary is.

As always I hope and pray this makes some sense…

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

So you are fine with Catholics who only focus on Mary but never give Jesus a thought. You may be one of the people I see as a problem.

Again, I am not saying to ignore Mary; just let her do what she is supposed to do: lead us to Jesus.

Hello Gary,
I see and agree with your concerns. Every day I feel drawn closer to the Catholic church. And as such I have studied a lot of Marian material and have not found the church in error as far as official doctrine is concerned. But there seems to be a body of Catholics who have moved away from the original teaching of Marian devotion being an aid to a better understanding of God and his Son the Holy Spirit and the Church to something bordering on for want of a better word worship! I recently went on a weekend retreat in the Scottish Highlands. I spent two nights there, most of my time in prayer with a group of nine or ten others. My overall impression of the whole weekend was a total lack of prayer to the Lord!
All of the time was spent praying to the Saints and Mary. This is ***not ***the teaching of the Holy Catholic Church and is causing me many sleepless nights!
Your Brother in Christ,
Richard.

 

[BluesPicker]

Hello Gary,
I see and agree with your concerns. Every day I feel drawn closer to the Catholic church. And as such I have studied a lot of Marian material and have not found the church in error as far as official doctrine is concerned. But there seems to be a body of Catholics who have moved away from the original teaching of Marian devotion being an aid to a better understanding of God and his Son the Holy Spirit and the Church to something bordering on for want of a better word worship! I recently went on a weekend retreat in the Scottish Highlands. I spent two nights there, most of my time in prayer with a group of nine or ten others. My overall impression of the whole weekend was a total lack of prayer to the Lord!
All of the time was spent praying to the Saints and Mary. This is ***not ***the teaching of the Holy Catholic Church and is causing me many sleepless nights!
Your Brother in Christ,
Richard.

 No, and the Holy Trinity is derived from the Bible but not spelled out as such.   As Catholics we believe in the Mystical Body of Christ which is divided into the Church Alive in Heaven and  the Church Alive on Earth today.  This is the Communion of Saints Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church and  the rest are the Members and Organs of that Body. 

  If  we here on earth alive can pray for one another interceding for one another asking Christ to help ourselves and others  then why can't the Church Alive in Heaven can't do so.  This is explained in the Catholic Encyclopedia: 

  "The Catholic doctrine of intercession and invocation is set forth by the Council of Trent, which teaches that "the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their own prayers to God for men. It is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers, aid, and help for obtaining benefits from God, through His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, Who alone is our Redeemer and Savior. Those persons think impiously who deny that the Saints, who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven, are to be invoked; or who assert either that they do not pray for men, or that the invocation of them to pray for each of us is idolatry, or that it is repugnant to the word of God, and is opposed to the honor of the one Mediator of God and men, Jesus Christ" (Sess. XXV). This had already been explained by St. Thomas: "Prayer is offered to a person in two ways: one as though to be granted by himself, another as to be obtained through him. In the first way we pray to God alone, because all our prayers ought to be directed to obtaining grace and glory which God alone gives, according to those words of the psalm (lxxxiii, 12): `The Lord will give grace and glory.' But in the second way we pray to the holy angels and to men, not that God may learn our petition through them, but that by their prayers and merits our prayers may be efficacious. Wherefore it is said in the Apocalypse (viii, 4): `And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel'" (Summ. Theol., II-II, Q. lxxxiii, a. 4). The reasonableness of the Catholic teaching and practice cannot be better stated than in St. Jerome's words: "If the Apostles and Martyrs, while still in the body, can pray for others, at a time when they must still be anxious for themselves, how much more after their crowns, victories, and triumphs are won! One man, Moses obtains from God pardon for six hundred thousand men in arms; and Stephen, the imitator of the Lord, and the first martyr in Christ, begs forgiveness for his persecutors; and shall their power be less after having begun to be with Christ? The Apostle Paul declares that two hundred three score and sixteen souls, sailing with him, were freely given him; and, after he is dissolved and has begun to be with Christ, shall he close his lips, and not be able to utter a word in behalf of those who throughout the whole world believed at his preaching of the Gospel? And shall the living dog Vigilantius be better than that dead lion?" ("Contra Vigilant.", n. 6, in P.L., XXIII, 344). "

 Catholics don't worship our Blessed Mother but we give her honor  as the mother of Jesus Christ.  She is the highest of all Creation being born just a lowly human of flesh and blood.  Through her humility and complete devotion to God she earned this title and position as  Queen of Heaven.   She is not God though.  But if we imitate the Blessed Virgin we will gain to see the Blessed Fruit of her womb  Jesus Christ.  

  Every fallen angel fell rejecting some aspect of  Jesus Christ. Some rejected Christ's Infinite Mercy.  Some His Infinite Compassion.  Satan fell rejecting our Blessed Mother Mary.

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

No, and the Holy Trinity is derived from the Bible but not spelled out as such. As Catholics we believe in the Mystical Body of Christ which is divided into the Church Alive in Heaven and the Church Alive on Earth today. This is the Communion of Saints Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church and the rest are the Members and Organs of that Body.

  If  we here on earth alive can pray for one another interceding for one another asking Christ to help ourselves and others  then why can't the Church Alive in Heaven can't do so.  This is explained in the Catholic Encyclopedia: 

  "The Catholic doctrine of intercession and invocation is set forth by the Council of Trent, which teaches that "the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their own prayers to God for men. It is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers, aid, and help for obtaining benefits from God, through His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, Who alone is our Redeemer and Savior. Those persons think impiously who deny that the Saints, who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven, are to be invoked; or who assert either that they do not pray for men, or that the invocation of them to pray for each of us is idolatry, or that it is repugnant to the word of God, and is opposed to the honor of the one Mediator of God and men, Jesus Christ" (Sess. XXV). This had already been explained by St. Thomas: "Prayer is offered to a person in two ways: one as though to be granted by himself, another as to be obtained through him. In the first way we pray to God alone, because all our prayers ought to be directed to obtaining grace and glory which God alone gives, according to those words of the psalm (lxxxiii, 12): `The Lord will give grace and glory.' But in the second way we pray to the holy angels and to men, not that God may learn our petition through them, but that by their prayers and merits our prayers may be efficacious. Wherefore it is said in the Apocalypse (viii, 4): `And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel'" (Summ. Theol., II-II, Q. lxxxiii, a. 4). The reasonableness of the Catholic teaching and practice cannot be better stated than in St. Jerome's words: "If the Apostles and Martyrs, while still in the body, can pray for others, at a time when they must still be anxious for themselves, how much more after their crowns, victories, and triumphs are won! One man, Moses obtains from God pardon for six hundred thousand men in arms; and Stephen, the imitator of the Lord, and the first martyr in Christ, begs forgiveness for his persecutors; and shall their power be less after having begun to be with Christ? The Apostle Paul declares that two hundred three score and sixteen souls, sailing with him, were freely given him; and, after he is dissolved and has begun to be with Christ, shall he close his lips, and not be able to utter a word in behalf of those who throughout the whole world believed at his preaching of the Gospel? And shall the living dog Vigilantius be better than that dead lion?" ("Contra Vigilant.", n. 6, in P.L., XXIII, 344). "

 Catholics don't worship our Blessed Mother but we give her honor  as the mother of Jesus Christ.  She is the highest of all Creation being born just a lowly human of flesh and blood.  Through her humility and complete devotion to God she earned this title and position as  Queen of Heaven.   She is not God though.  But if we imitate the Blessed Virgin we will gain to see the Blessed Fruit of her womb  Jesus Christ.  

  Every fallen angel fell rejecting some aspect of  Jesus Christ. Some rejected Christ's Infinite Mercy.  Some His Infinite Compassion.  Satan fell rejecting our Blessed Mother Mary.

Thanks BluesPicker.I now feel better informed.
Your Brother in Christ,
Richard.

 

[BluesPicker]

No Problem Ricky,

     You are very welcome.   Really that Catholic Encyclopedia contains a wealth of information and is a wonderful facility  here at CAF.

BP

 

[cecilia97]

Let me explain why I asked this question. Yesterday I was listening to an interview of a man from the Blue Army by Fr. Mitch Paces. At one point the man said you can’t take the Bible literally. Fr. Pacwa corrected him saying there were parts you couldn’t take literally. The man said nothing giving me the impression that he disagreed but didn’t want to get into it. Yet this man had no problem with taking Mary’s words at Fatima quite literally. Although this incident made me ask, it is not alone. Even in the CAF I have seen comments that almost seemed to center our faith on Mary rather than Jesus.

I am talking about this kind of popular spirituality, not the Church’s teachings.

“Never be afraid of loving the Blessed Virgin too much. You can never love her more than Jesus did.”**…Saint Maximilian Kolbe

 

[perro_sarnoso]

Let me explain why I asked this question. Yesterday I was listening to an interview of a man from the Blue Army by Fr. Mitch Paces. At one point the man said you can’t take the Bible literally. Fr. Pacwa corrected him saying there were parts you couldn’t take literally. The man said nothing giving me the impression that he disagreed but didn’t want to get into it. Yet this man had no problem with taking Mary’s words at Fatima quite literally. Although this incident made me ask, it is not alone. Even in the CAF I have seen comments that almost seemed to center our faith on Mary rather than Jesus.

I am talking about this kind of popular spirituality, not the Church’s teachings.

Gary,

Ask Fr. Mitch, he will tell you. The Immaculate, Perpetual Virigin Mother of God is the sign spoken of in the Apocalypse.

To her, Jesus has reserved these “final” times in which we live. The triumph of the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart.

The vision of St. John Bosco: The one tall tower with the Eucharist on top and the sign: Salus Credentium and another smaller column with the Theotokos and a sign that says: Auxilium Cristianorum.

Over emphasize. …I think not.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Let me explain why I asked this question. Yesterday I was listening to an interview of a man from the Blue Army by Fr. Mitch Paces. At one point the man said you can’t take the Bible literally. Fr. Pacwa corrected him saying there were parts you couldn’t take literally. The man said nothing giving me the impression that he disagreed but didn’t want to get into it. Yet this man had no problem with taking Mary’s words at Fatima quite literally. Although this incident made me ask, it is not alone. Even in the CAF I have seen comments that almost seemed to center our faith on Mary rather than Jesus.

I am talking about this kind of popular spirituality, not the Church’s teachings.

It seems that there are some Catholics who wish to push Fatima as something more than a private revelation that is not a required belief for Catholics.

They seem to wish to make it Dogma.

There is also a set of Catholics who believe such that push the rosary as more than a private devotion to something that every Catholic must pray.

I think these Catholics are misguided and do not understand what the Church Teaches in these matters.