Are Eastern Catholics Moving Away From Rome?

[JMJ_coder]

Yes, I’ve heard of that Wyoming group, but I’m not sure how truly “Carmelite” they are. For one thing, they call themselves “monks” whereas Carmelites have always been mendicant friars. They don’t live in monasteries. They live in priories. For another, I have no idea of their standing within the Order. Are they subject to the Prior General?

A friar is word that means brother – from the Latin fratres. But, monk is an appropriate term to use – they are monastic (especially this group). They do live in monasteries – that is what they call their communities. Whether priory can be also used (I usually associate priory with the Dominicans), the Carmelites themselves use the term monastery to describe their communities.

The Carmelites in Wyoming are not part of O.Carm. or O.C.D. – they are their own branch called M.Carm. I don’t know exactly what M. stands for, but if I were to guess, I would say either something monastic or Marian.

They are in complete obedience to their local Bishop and celebrate the Rite of the Holy Sepulchre (Carmelite Rite). From what I have heard, the Bishop insisted on it.

Note: the Carmelite Rite was in use with the Calced Carmelites (O.Carm) up through Vatican II – the Discalced Carmelites (O.C.D.) adopting the Roman Rite very soon after the reform.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

A friar is word that means brother – from the Latin fratres. But, monk is an appropriate term to use – they are monastic (especially this group). They do live in monasteries – that is what they call their communities. Whether priory can be also used (I usually associate priory with the Dominicans), the Carmelites themselves use the term monastery to describe their communities.

The Carmelites in Wyoming are not part of O.Carm. or O.C.D. – they are their own branch called M.Carm. I don’t know exactly what M. stands for, but if I were to guess, I would say either something monastic or Marian.

They are in complete obedience to their local Bishop and celebrate the Rite of the Holy Sepulchre (Carmelite Rite). From what I have heard, the Bishop insisted on it.

Note: the Carmelite Rite was in use with the Calced Carmelites (O.Carm) up through Vatican II – the Discalced Carmelites (O.C.D.) adopting the Roman Rite very soon after the reform.

Fascinating! Thank you for sharing this…

 

[Aramis]

Not that it matters much, but I have never heard of a “Benedictine usage.”

In the Cathedral in Anchorage it is the Dominican Mass; The ony “Benedictine Use” I’ve head of was Episcopalian, and that was also in Alaska.

 

[malphono]

A friar is word that means brother – from the Latin fratres. But, monk is an appropriate term to use – they are monastic (especially this group). They do live in monasteries – that is what they call their communities. Whether priory can be also used (I usually associate priory with the Dominicans), the Carmelites themselves use the term monastery to describe their communities.

I know what a monk is and I know what a friar is. As it happens, I was raised with Carmelites (O. Carm) around, and several were close friends of the family, so I have some familiarity with that order. Of course that was in pre-1969 missal promulgation days, in other words when the the Carmelite usage was still breathing on its own.

Never once did one of them use the term “monk” to describe himself. It was always friar. Further, where they live (there’s still a community in that same location) is called a Priory. (Yes, I know the Domninicans use the same term.) The superior of the house was the Prior (I recall "Father Prior as the formal form of address). The superior of the province was the Prior Provincial. The general superior of the order was the Prior General.

JMJ_coder:

The Carmelites in Wyoming are not part of O.Carm. or O.C.D. – they are their own branch called M.Carm. I don’t know exactly what M. stands for, but if I were to guess, I would say either something monastic or Marian.

They are in complete obedience to their local Bishop and celebrate the Rite of the Holy Sepulchre (Carmelite Rite). From what I have heard, the Bishop insisted on it.

OK, that pretty much answers my original question: from what you say it seems this group is a foundation of diocesan right which is, as we both know, different from being part of the Carmelite Order. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that, but it does explain the use of “monks” and “monastery” which would otherwise be out of place. OTOH, not being part of the Order, use of the Missale Carmelitanum etc, still strikes me as odd. I could be wrong, but don’t think a Roman Rite bishop-ordinary has the authority to grant an indult for the use of a non-Roman Rite tradition.

JMJ_coder:

Note: the Carmelite Rite was in use with the Calced Carmelites (O.Carm) up through Vatican II – the Discalced Carmelites (O.C.D.) adopting the Roman Rite very soon after the reform.

I think I know what you mean, but just to clarify:

The Carmelites of the Ancient Observance (O. Carm) held the ancient usage until it was “flash-frozen” (or “put in suspended animation” or whatever) in the post-conciliar free-for-all.

The OCD used the Roman Rite starting with Trent (perhaps before).

 

[malphono]

In the Cathedral in Anchorage it is the Dominican Mass; The ony “Benedictine Use” I’ve head of was Episcopalian, and that was also in Alaska.

Thanks for that information. I had heard that the ancient Dominican Rite was being used (at least occasionally) in Anchorage. Kudos to the Western Province.

The Benedictines in particular never had their own Missal, although of course they do have the Breviarium Monasticum. Pre-Trent, it seems that Mass was offered according to local custom on an abbey-by-abbey basis, but post-Trent, Benedictines used the Missale Romanum exclusively. Makes me wonder what books those Episcopalians you mentioned are using.

As far as I know or have ever read, the only true monks that ever had their own particular Missals are the Cistercians and the Carthusians.

 

[JMJ_coder]

I know what a monk is and I know what a friar is. As it happens, I was raised with Carmelites (O. Carm) around, and several were close friends of the family, so I have some familiarity with that order. Of course that was in pre-1969 missal promulgation days, in other words when the the Carmelite usage was still breathing on its own.

Never once did one of them use the term “monk” to describe himself. It was always friar. Further, where they live (there’s still a community in that same location) is called a Priory. (Yes, I know the Domninicans use the same term.) The superior of the house was the Prior (I recall "Father Prior as the formal form of address). The superior of the province was the Prior Provincial. The general superior of the order was the Prior General.

I can’t speak too much for the O.Carm., but:

While technically they are a mendicant order, the Carmelites have their origins in the monastic tradition on Mount Carmel in the Holy Land, where hermits gathered together to form a community. Later, due to Islamic aggressions and atrocities, they fled to Europe and were ‘re-cast’ (hard to find a good word here?) into a medieval mendicant order.

And while the O.C.D. will refer to themselves as Carmelite Friars, I don’t think they would bat an eye if you called them a monk. (this part here is just my opinion).

The O.C.D. in the reform strived to return more to their monastic and contemplative roots (the O.Carm. retaining their more active charism and ministry).

The O.C.D. have called their communities monasteries from the start. Indeed, Saint Teresa at the beginning of her book “The Way of Perfection” refers to Saint Joseph (the first community she founded) this way:

“When I began to take the first steps toward founding this monastery…”

Indeed, in the Province of the Immaculate Heart of Mary (Washington), the communities are such (straight from the proverbial horses mouth):

Monastery of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel (Washington, D.C.)
Monastery of the Espousals of Mary and Joseph (Brighton, MA)
Monastery of Christ on the Mountain (Hinton, WV) – this is the “desert” community.
Monastery of St. Florian (Milwaukee, WI)
Shrine of Our Lady Help of Christians (Holy Hill, WI) – ok, a shrine not a monastery, but you get the point.
Monastery of St. John of the Cross (Nairobi, Kenya)

The superiors of the O.C.D. are not called Prior Provincial – they are called Father Provincial. And the superior of the order is just called Superior General or General Superior (I’ve seen both used).

 

[malphono]

I can’t speak too much for the O.Carm., but:

While technically they are a mendicant order, the Carmelites have their origins in the monastic tradition on Mount Carmel in the Holy Land, where hermits gathered together to form a community. Later, due to Islamic aggressions and atrocities, they fled to Europe and were ‘re-cast’ (hard to find a good word here?) into a medieval mendicant order.

So, as you yourself say, they are a mendicant Order.

JMJ_coder:

… The O.C.D. in the reform strived to return more to their monastic and contemplative roots (the O.Carm. retaining their more active charism and ministry).

The O.C.D. have called their communities monasteries from the start. …

.
I believe I recall something about the OCD using the term monastery. I have never encountered that among the O. Carm. Anyway, while the OCD certainly did spring from O. Carm, they developed into, and remain, two very distinct entities. Even the habit differs substantially.

JMJ_coder:

…The superiors of the O.C.D. are not called Prior Provincial – they are called Father Provincial. And the superior of the order is just called Superior General or General Superior (I’ve seen both used).

I wasn’t speaking of the OCD … I’ve never met one, nor do I know anything about them. But as I recall, for the O. Carm, the title was “Prior Provincial” but one would address him as “Father Provincial.” The Prior General would have been similarly addressed as “Father General.”

But of course all of this is totally off-topic … we’re both guilty

 

[JMJ_coder]

But of course all of this is totally off-topic … we’re both guilty

What would be the fun in staying on-topic?

 

[Koopa]

All I can say on this subject is that the first thing you see when you walk into the Maronite church I’ve been to is a huge picture of the pope.

 

[Jimzz12]

The VII document on Eastern Churches asked us to return to our traditions, and theologies. Our own particular theologies are just as legitimate as the latin theologies and we have every right to use them. As for looking towards the Orthodox, even Rome refuses to published authoritative liturgical books that are already in print under various Orthodox jurisdictions. So this is even something that Rome has encouraged us to do. An Eastern re-evaluation of the Papacy is also something the previous Pope had initiated in order to improve relations with the Orthodox churches. On devotions, no one is saying people can not practice latin devotions , but a Rosary before Divine Liturgy should not be done if its causing the parish to neglect the celebration of one of the Hours.

I agree. Moreover, the Rosary has been encouraged for the western catholics as more properly a private devotion.

 

[thunderballs75]

The Eastern Catholics should definitely not turn their liturgies into Roman liturgies (because if they did that, they’d lose all of their tradition like we did!!! ). But really, they should try to keep themselves as traditional as possible. Definitely not shift towards anything Latin. But of course, they must always keep in mind the supremacy of the Roman Pontiff, and remain as Catholic as any other.

 

[bkovacs]

I don’t mean to sound deliberately antagonistic here, but in the last decade or so I’ve noticed a trend within the Eastern Catholic Churches that seems almost subtly hostile to anything perceived as Roman. I understand the desire by some in the East to restore there historic traditions, but what particular disturbs me is when I hear people speak with a Puritanical zeal to eliminate anything that originated in the West, or to advocate an Orthodox (and not Catholic) re-evaluation of Papal authority, or simply to look to the Orthodox Churches, most of whom regard us with varying degrees of negativity, as there models. Perhaps what I find most disturbing of all, is that many in the Eastern Rite Churches, who are already close to there Latin brothers and sisters in there theological and devotional lives, are now being asked to move closer to those we are not even in communion with.

I think what is even more disturbing is what most of the Roman Catholic hierarchy is doing in their own Rite. In regards to traditional Catholics. They want to prevent Catholics from learning anything about the traditions of their rite before Vatican 2. And those that do, “sit in the back of the bus” a lack for a better term. Maybe Eastern Catholics don’t want to be part of a protestant Catholic Church. But of the traditional Catholic church. Eastern Catholics value their traditions way more than most Novus Ordo Vatican 2 Catholics. And will NOT change their traditions for anything!. God Bless them!.

 

[Jimzz12]

The Eastern Catholics should definitely not turn their liturgies into Roman liturgies (because if they did that, they’d lose all of their tradition like we did!!! ). But really, they should try to keep themselves as traditional as possible. Definitely not shift towards anything Latin. But of course, they must always keep in mind the supremacy of the Roman Pontiff, and remain as Catholic as any other.

Nobody has “lost tradition”. Language like that indicates the impossibility of retrieval. I’d say your point of view is blurred a little. I don’t mean that as an attack but keep in perspective it says you’re from San Bernadino. I was there last month and went to different Masses all-around. I truly feel sorry for California’s Catholics – it almost would hurt at the deepest level of my soul to go to Mass. It really is sad out there. I hope and pray all you people in California get respectable leadership soon. Because California is like a oasis of possibility in a desert of sin right now. I’ve taken notice of the growing monastic communities out there. It’s really great. Anywho. Engaging Christ leads us into a requirement to engage our brains – Catholics really don’t have any excuse. We by all rights and measures should be known as a culture of people who speak multiple langauges, know history, architecture, and the arts and the natural sciences, make the best foods, wines, and oils. The non-Catholics have taken these areas over and have spoiled the sanctity of our culture. Most of all we have allowed secular groups to steal charitible contributions and put them into the cess-pool of 3% federally tax exempt organizations instead of putting them into rice bowls, and church funds where they are used most efficiently for the well-being of men, women, and children. That’s a whole nother story saved for later.

For the time being, Father Junipero Sera must be turning in his grave.

 

[thunderballs75]

Nobody has “lost tradition”. Language like that indicates the impossibility of retrieval. I’d say your point of view is blurred a little. I don’t mean that as an attack but keep in perspective it says you’re from San Bernadino. I was there last month and went to different Masses all-around. I truly feel sorry for California’s Catholics – it almost would hurt at the deepest level of my soul to go to Mass. It really is sad out there. I hope and pray all you people in California get respectable leadership soon. Because California is like a oasis of possibility in a desert of sin right now. I’ve taken notice of the growing monastic communities out there. It’s really great. Anywho. Engaging Christ leads us into a requirement to engage our brains – Catholics really don’t have any excuse. We by all rights and measures should be known as a culture of people who speak multiple langauges, know history, architecture, and the arts and the natural sciences, make the best foods, wines, and oils. The non-Catholics have taken these areas over and have spoiled the sanctity of our culture. Most of all we have allowed secular groups to steal charitible contributions and put them into the cess-pool of 3% federally tax exempt organizations instead of putting them into rice bowls, and church funds where they are used most efficiently for the well-being of men, women, and children. That’s a whole nother story saved for later.

For the time being, Father Junipero Sera must be turning in his grave.

Well I meant it for the most part as a light traditionalist Catholic rant. The situation in Southern California is pretty awful. I have the choice of going to the liberal irreverent protestantized mass down the street, or the extreme nearly-sedevacantist schismatic SSPX mass a few miles away. What to do??? Not a single parish nearby takes advantage of the Holy Father’s last motu proprio. I wonder why God decided to have me born into such a liberal diocese? Poor Blessed Father Serra, haha!

God bless!

 

[Diak]

It’s interesting that Vatican II was an impetus for our Churches to return to a more authentic practice of our respective received traditions, and several Eastern Catholic Patriarchs (especially Patriarchs Maximos IV of the Melkites and Josyp of the UGCC) made important contributions and statements.

It seems often in the Latin Church the Council was a source of some confusion, especially right after the Council, where as in the Eastern Catholic Churches there has been a steady progression from latinizations to a more authentic recapturing of the received tradition. In my lifetime alone my Eparchy has gone from a few refugee married priests during the Soviet era to now about 2/3 of the parochial clergy being married, a number of those American or Canadian born.

Our Church in general has seen a resurgence (there is still room to improve, of course) of Vespers and other services more congruous with our Kyivan tradition. The integrity of the three Sacraments if Initiation is making progress in its restoration. Our Synod selects bishops when it needs rather than waiting on Rome to appoint every one. There are more, but there are many things to thank God for, and essentially the Council was a serious impetus to kick these restorations and reforms into “higher gear”.