Are effeminate priests the cause of the vocations shortage?

[setter]

I have been wondering about this lately. Like any vocation, profession or career, a person is most attracted by having had personal knowledge of someone whom they feel that they can relate to and emulate in that capacity and lifestyle.

Unfortunately for too long, I found that there have been too few priests who fit the grade as a man’s man, which I believe is what would be most attractive to the type of person and priest that God wants to lead His flock in these times. In the absence of relevant role models, it would seem that God has been more limited in being able to attract viable young men to His chosen priestly vocation. I would appreciate other’s thoughts on this.

Here is an example of what I mean by a man’s man priest (thank you Fr. Joe) to attract other strong men of God to the priesthood as a relevent vocation:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1677847#post1677847

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1661419#post1661419

 

[netmilsmom]

I think that homosexuality being tolerated in some seminaries is a big cause. That and the discouraging of orthodox candidates.

 

[scylla]

Goodbye Good Men should be a must read for everyone who is considering a vocation or knows boys who may be looking into a vocation.

goodbyegoodmen.com/

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Being “manly” is certainly NOT the stereotype of beer swigging, loud-mouth, overbearing swagger-meister, which certain elements of our society (cough–liberals and feminists-cough) would like us all to believe While one may lack an impressive masculine physique, a priest should project a concerned, intelligent paternal nature–he should be a “Father” to his parish in every sense but biological.

BTW regarding the link, YUM!—have’nt had venison for years!

 

[Prayerful]

“Goodbye Good Men” is an inflammatory work written by someone trained as a book-keeper and not as a serious investigative journalist. I wouldn’t recommend it as it’s quite prejudicial and reductionist. “The New Men” by Brian Murphy is a far more productive read.

Keep in mind that often time times what is perceived as an “effeminate” bearing is often a product of living a sheltered, quiet, gentle life, surrounded many times by women and not by men. Further, when someone’s view of the priests is of effeminate-acting men, typically only those who act (or want to act) in that manner will be attracted to the priesthood

That said, I think the effeminate manner in which a great many priests act is indeed a terrible turn-off to many, including myself. This became even more pronounced when our new pastor started and he broke what seemed to be a tradition of effeminate acting priests. I like him – he seems like a “regular” guy.

 

[Fr.Joe]

“Goodbye Good Men” is an inflammatory work written by someone trained as a book-keeper and not as a serious investigative journalist. QUOTE]

That may be, but unfortunately many of the things described in that book are true. Many good men (who would have been great priests) have left the seminary because of a strong homosexual subculture that was present and because of a faculty that for some reason disliked masculine qualities in their students. Personally, I don’t blame them. I wouldn’t have put up with that either. Thankfully this is changing for the better.

 

[tequilamac]

I’d have to say no. I’ve never actually met an effeminate priest. What do effeminate priests do that is different from other men?
I’ve had a nasty habit of developing crushes on several priests, several of whom had actually been engaged before they entered seminary.
Where do you live where you have these so called effeminate ones?

 

[palmas85]

I have been wondering about this lately. Like any vocation, profession or career, a person is most attracted by having had personal knowledge of someone whom they feel that they can relate to and emulate in that capacity and lifestyle.

Unfortunately for too long, I found that there have been too few priests who fit the grade as a man’s man, which I believe is what would be most attractive to the type of person and priest that God wants to lead His flock in these times. In the absence of relevant role models, it would seem that God has been more limited in being able to attract viable young men to His chosen priestly vocation. I would appreciate other’s thoughts on this.

Here is an example of what I mean by a man’s man priest (thank you Fr. Joe) to attract other strong men of God to the priesthood as a relevent vocation:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1677847#post1677847

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1661419#post1661419

I don’t think so. I think it is more just a reflection of one the loss of uniqueness of the Priesthood and lack of knowledge of the faith… Quite frankly, many young men now don’t really see a whole lot of difference between the laity and the Priethood, due in part to the actiual bluring of the lines between the two and ignorance caused by 40 years of really poor catechisis.

You will note that in those diocese that have strong catechal programs that teach orthodox Catholicism, not just Traditional but orthodox in scope, you have quite a few vocations. In areas where the spirit is more liberal and modernistic, you have the reverse.

 

[chotock]

I don’t think so. I think it is more just a reflection of one the loss of uniqueness of the Priesthood and lack of knowledge of the faith… Quite frankly, many young men now don’t really see a whole lot of difference between the laity and the Priethood, due in part to the actiual bluring of the lines between the two and ignorance caused by 40 years of really poor catechisis.

You will note that in those diocese that have strong catechal programs that teach orthodox Catholicism, not just Traditional but orthodox in scope, you have quite a few vocations. In areas where the spirit is more liberal and modernistic, you have the reverse.

I believe you have hit the issue a bit better. I know a few priests from Africa and they are constantly being called “girly”. I can honestly tell you, they would give any “red-blooded” American man a run for his money in the world of toughness.

“Manly” behaviours are cultural, not literal. While it is nice to see priests that do exhibit the modes of behaviour indigenious to the location they are assigned, we have to accept that with our current shortage, we are going to see priests from vastly different backgrounds.

Stereotyping an individual based on perceived types is not at all congruent with Christian teaching.

 

[Polaris]

This is how you judge a manly man by his desire and enjoyment of killing? I thought the point of a real man is to protect life with his strength not to use it for killing. Oh well I guess as one of those darn feminists my ideas of what a man should be is completely off.

(No offense Fr Joe I am grateful you have answered Gods call)

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I’d have to say no. I’ve never actually met an effeminate priest. What do effeminate priests do that is different from other men?
I’ve had a nasty habit of developing crushes on several priests, several of whom had actually been engaged before they entered seminary.
Where do you live where you have these so called effeminate ones?

Maybe they fail to join the NRA ​

Speaking as a person of non-USA extraction and domicile (NUEAD for short), I find the implication that a “manly” priest should be a testosterone-fuelled, six-gun-packing, beer-swilling, drunken bully very alarming

The thread is actually very interesting, because it recalls the divide between:

• the warlike man of arms
• the priest
  and the tendency of the former to despise the latter as a weakling, who is not really a man at all. This division is registered in late mediaeval literature, in mediaeval France - then a (relatively) young society. It’s tempting to wonder whether the same division is showing up in the USA, also a young society.

It is a great mistake to think that the priesthood (& the religious life) does not require stamina, self-discipline, strength of character, courage & other so-called manly virtues. Anyone who imagines that those two forms of life are somehow “unmanly” is sorely mistaken - they are anything but refuges from the troubles of life; in fact, it may be that it requires more courage & grace to be a priest now, than it did in 1950 or so.

USA Catholicism seems to have (or to have had ?) a tendency to exalt the “active” life above the “contemplative” life - this is one of the trends that Leo XIII mentioned in his Encyclical on “Americanism” in 1899. If there is such a tendency, it may be in the background when people express fear about the unmanliness (real or supposed) of priests - as though a “real man” might be expected to be more aggressive, & closer to Rambo than to St.John Vianney.

 

[tequilamac]

Maybe they fail to join the NRA ​

Speaking as a person of non-USA extraction and domicile (NUEAD for short), I find the implication that a “manly” priest should be a testosterone-fuelled, six-gun-packing, beer-swilling, drunken bully very alarming

The thread is actually very interesting, because it recalls the divide between:

• the warlike man of arms
• the priest
  and the tendency of the former to despise the latter as a weakling, who is not really a man at all. This division is registered in late mediaeval literature, in mediaeval France - then a (relatively) young society. It’s tempting to wonder whether the same division is showing up in the USA, also a young society.

It is a great mistake to think that the priesthood (& the religious life) does not require stamina, self-discipline, strength of character, courage & other so-called manly virtues. Anyone who imagines that those two forms of life are somehow “unmanly” is sorely mistaken - they are anything but refuges from the troubles of life; in fact, it may be that it requires more courage & grace to be a priest now, than it did in 1950 or so.

USA Catholicism seems to have (or to have had ?) a tendency to exalt the “active” life above the “contemplative” life - this is one of the trends that Leo XIII mentioned in his Encyclical on “Americanism” in 1899. If there is such a tendency, it may be in the background when people express fear about the unmanliness (real or supposed) of priests - as though a “real man” might be expected to be more aggressive, & closer to Rambo than to St.John Vianney.

Frankly, I have to honestly say I have never met a priest I would consider effeminate and at the same time I have never met a “testosterone-fuelled, six-gun-packing, beer-swilling, drunken bully” priest either. Maybe I just have been lucky but the priests I have met have been simply men. some more handsome than others and probably terrible for a woman to say but some sexier than others, but still just men. Sometimes I Look at a priest and say “what a shame for women.” But even my husband agreed that the priests I found rather sexy *were *sexy. But not in the way anyone is describing here.

There was one now… I wish I had met him before he became a priest. A big man, you know, from Salem Massachusetts, Irish guy with a Boston accent. Too old for me though. Already had his jubilee year. What a man! He’s my husbands’s best friend. And the kids love him to death. He is what I would describe as a meat and potatoes kind of guy you know. Down to earth and …
I digress. Pardon me.

And yes, before you ask, I DO go to Confession.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

“Goodbye Good Men” is an inflammatory work written by someone trained as a book-keeper and not as a serious investigative journalist. I wouldn’t recommend it as it’s quite prejudicial and reductionist. “The New Men” by Brian Murphy is a far more productive read.
.

Yep, Rose lacked the “journalist union card” and never mind the content, it’s the professional connections that matter.

 

[Fr.Joe]

This is how you judge a manly man by his desire and enjoyment of killing? I thought the point of a real man is to protect life with his strength not to use it for killing. Oh well I guess as one of those darn feminists my ideas of what a man should be is completely off.

(No offense Fr Joe I am grateful you have answered Gods call)

No offense taken, but I guess you didn’t see the part about the wild game dinner I’ll be putting on (for the people of God.) As Jesus fed the multitudes with loaves and fish, I do it with venison.

God Bless

 

[Prayerful]

Yep, Rose lacked the “journalist union card” and never mind the content, it’s the professional connections that matter.

I didn’t say anything about “professional connections” – you did. Not only is his work inflammatory it’s also geared to the lowest common denominator. In no way does it offer a balanced viewpoint. Sadly those beating the drums the loudest seem very attracted to reductionist works for some reason and potential priests deserve better than that.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Speaking as a person of non-USA extraction and domicile (NUEAD for short), I find the implication that a “manly” priest should be a testosterone-fuelled, six-gun-packing, beer-swilling, drunken bully very alarming

I don’t see where anyone said they want an “testosterone-fuelled, six-gun-packing, beer-swilling, drunken bully”. Sounds more like a stereotypical cultural projection of your own upon us from the “States”.

I like cassocks, I like guns. I think a priest should be “manly” in the sense of being masculine. I will not give up my “manly” pursuits (such as shooting) because some people have a erroneous idea of what a priest should be.

 

[netmilsmom]

Many good men (who would have been great priests) have left the seminary because of a strong homosexual subculture that was present and because of a faculty that for some reason disliked masculine qualities in their students. Personally, I don’t blame them. I wouldn’t have put up with that either. Thankfully this is changing for the better.

A childhood friend’s brother left for that reason.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

I didn’t say anything about “professional connections” – you did…

Lets see, from your quote:

“Goodbye Good Men” is an inflammatory work written by someone trained as a book-keeper and not as a serious investigative journalist…

As some actually trained in both journalism and history, I recognize the techniques of research, interview, and analysis are not limited to the academicaly credited. Rose did not depart from accepted standards in preserving the requested anonynmity of many of his sources–and much of these anonymous sources experiences have been corraborrated by other non-anonymous reports. Even dissident Priest Andrew Greeley has recognized the existence of a “Lavender Mafia” (gay clique) within the priesthood

Not only is his work inflammatory it’s also geared to the lowest common denominator. In no way does it offer a balanced viewpoint. Sadly those beating the drums the loudest seem very attracted to reductionist works for some reason and potential priests deserve better than that.

It’s an expose of scandal, of a highjacking of (many) seminaries by a radical fringe that wants to push their theological and social agenda. There is no gentle, warm fuzzy way of putting it, especially when the radical agenda is the real reduction–the rejection of 2000 years of Church teaching & authority in exchange for the social and academic fads of the moment, the denial of the “democracy of the dead”
for the promise of false ecumenicalism and chronological snobbery

 

[Ace86]

I think we need to define masculinity. What do you think it means? I don’t think it means promiscuity. I think it means to be fatherly and brotherly, and also courageous. A priest can’t be afraid to stick up for Christ and his Church. And a priest has to love them both, and love his flock so much so that he is willing to die for them to protect them - after all, they are his spiritual family. Granted, not all men have six-packs and colossal muscles, but physique is not necessary, although good genes certainly help.

 

[palmas85]

I knew one Priest who was a stone cold alcoholic and pretty nuch a basket case without a few shots under his belt. I knew another Priest who was painfully and I mean painfully effeminate. I knew another who as Chaplain to a Police Department was a champion weightlifter and kick boxer, really pumped up physically and a totally obnoxious boor most of the time. A very vain man indeed. Yet another had what was probably the most intelligent, analytical mind I’ve ever run into. Another, well charitably I’d say I’m surprised he made it out of High School let alone any university or seminary.

All these men had one thing and really only one thing in common In spite of their weaknesses, their strengths and human characteristics , they all devoted themselves to God, and God was the most important thing to them. You could see it in their speech, in their official duties and in the way they approached the Mass and the Altar. None were perfect by any means and a couplea long way from it, but when you saw them at the Altar there was a power and dignity and a strength that radiated from them. It was palpable,. A truly awesome and amazing thing indeed.

I know at least two of the men have passed. The others, I don’t know. But I pray that their example of devotion to God and service to man in spite of their human failings as well as their strengths served as an example to others as well as to me.