Are Episcopalians Required to Follow Their Church Teachings?

[Usbek_de_Perse]

That is a good description. But there are other churches that would have the same attitude, including the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church and of course the Eastern Orthodox churches.

Even so, among Catholics you will find a myriad of views about any given topic. It’s just that the leadership doesn’t approve or sanction such a divergence of views on certain topics.

I think whether you’re aware of it or not you’re imposing a Catholic ecclesiology on an essentially non-Catholic entity.

 

[tomarin]

I am sure this is, at the very least, partially true. But still, I would like to hear from an Anglican or Episcopalian on why they believe that it is ok to reject their church’s teachings.

In other words, it is not mandatory for them to believe in everything that may appear to you as the Church of England’s “teachings”; not all of their statements are doctrinally binding on the consciences of their members.

 

[Indifferently]

I am sure this is, at the very least, partially true. But still, I would like to hear from an Anglican or Episcopalian on why they believe that it is ok to reject their church’s teachings.

In my opinion, one of the Articles of Religion (our Confession of Faith) states that the Church does not have the authority to legislate for things which are un-Biblical. And, let’s face it, lots of this political correctness is unbiblical in the extreme, and further reform would also be in this direction if, for example, same-sex marriage were allowed by the Church, or abortion were declared acceptable. There is a higher authority than the Church of England hierarchy, as a fellow parishioner always says to me (whilst looking to the sky) and he is our Advocate.

 

[jinc1019]

I think whether you’re aware of it or not you’re imposing a Catholic ecclesiology on an essentially non-Catholic entity.

Well yes I am and no I am not. I am more concerned with the philosophy behind it. Why would a person be in a church whose leadership teaches things they don’t believe in? That is the question and it really isn’t about applying Catholic rules to their religion.

 

[jinc1019]

In my opinion, one of the Articles of Religion (our Confession of Faith) states that the Church does not have the authority to legislate for things which are un-Biblical. And, let’s face it, lots of this political correctness is unbiblical in the extreme, and further reform would also be in this direction if, for example, same-sex marriage were allowed by the Church, or abortion were declared acceptable. There is a higher authority than the Church of England hierarchy, as a fellow parishioner always says to me (whilst looking to the sky) and he is our Advocate.

I agree!

 

[Indifferently]

I agree!

One of my favourite writers on Anglicanism is Peter Hitchens, whom you may know is the brother of the atheist author Christopher Hitchens. He wrote this piece, which basically sums up my view, far more elegantly than I could:

hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2008/02/is-the-church-o.html

 

[GWright]

The Episcopal Church has * teachings*?

News to me!

For me Anglicanism has really lost its way, (even more than they did when coming into existence via the Reformation).

A recent UK newspaper article, referred to an American description of the US Episcopal Church as being “flexible to the point of indifference on dogma”.

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100172245/americas-liberal-christians-might-be-progressive-and-inclusive-but-they-are-also-dying-out/

I think that sums it up. In 2012, global Anglicanism seems largely to be a mixture of disparate people with little or nothing in common, who meet every Sunday to “play at Catholics”.

I do not mean to be uncharitable, but sometimes the truth is tough.

It is very difficult to view global Anglicanism as having any credibility whatsoever. In England, Anglicans want to marry gay people in Church, in Uganda, Anglicans want to hang gay people. What a confused mess. What is worse, is that neither extreme is remotely Christian.

And recently the Church of England made another master-stoke, by voting not to have women Bishops, having already agreed to have women Bishops. I mean “Eh?”.

If it wasn’t so painful and tragic to see - for the damage they do to the credibility of Christianity - it would almost be like a comedy show.

I think the problem is that there are few Christians left in Anglicanism, but plenty of feminists, gay activists, ‘equality’ campaigners etc, all of whose idea of Christianity is simply to push make their Church ever more like the world. And that is exactly what Christ told us not to do.

I think that when I am an old man, Anglicanism will largely have disappeared, bar some token shell of the Church of England, which will remain to provide meaningless pagentry for the British Royal family.

It’s sad, but, had I been around at the time of the reformation, I would have happily bet on this outcome. In future, scholars will look back at 500-odd years of Anglicanism as a brief “flash in the pan”, a short, quaint aberration, caused by people who thought they knew better than Christ.

 

[Indifferently]

The Episcopal Church has * teachings*?

News to me!

For me Anglicanism has really lost its way, (even more than they did when coming into existence via the Reformation).

A recent UK newspaper article, referred to an American description of the US Episcopal Church as being “flexible to the point of indifference on dogma”.

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100172245/americas-liberal-christians-might-be-progressive-and-inclusive-but-they-are-also-dying-out/

I think that sums it up. In 2012, global Anglicanism seems largely to be a mixture of disparate people with little or nothing in common, who meet every Sunday to “play at Catholics”.

I do not mean to be uncharitable, but sometimes the truth is tough.

It is very difficult to view global Anglicanism as having any credibility whatsoever. In England, Anglicans want to marry gay people in Church, in Uganda, Anglicans want to hang gay people. What a confused mess. What is worse, is that neither extreme is remotely Christian.

And recently the Church of England made another master-stoke, by voting not to have women Bishops, having already agreed to have women Bishops. I mean “Eh?”.

If it wasn’t so painful and tragic to see - for the damage they do to the credibility of Christianity - it would almost be like a comedy show.

I think the problem is that there are few Christians left in Anglicanism, but plenty of feminists, gay activists, ‘equality’ campaigners etc, all of whose idea of Christianity is simply to push make their Church ever more like the world. And that is exactly what Christ told us not to do.

I think that when I am an old man, Anglicanism will largely have disappeared, bar some token shell of the Church of England, which will remain to provide meaningless pagentry for the British Royal family.

It’s sad, but, had I been around at the time of the reformation, I would have happily bet on this outcome. In future, scholars will look back at 500-odd years of Anglicanism as a brief “flash in the pan”, a short, quaint aberration, caused by people who thought they knew better than Christ.

Have you ever read the 1662 Book of Common Prayer? This is the living, breathing basis of all my beliefs and attitudes, religious and secular. It is written as a tablet in fire. Its marriage service is a thing of both terror and beauty, much like marriage itself. Its communion service is suitably penitent, whilst also conveying the majesty of the Eucharist. Read, for example, the Prayer of Humble Access:

“We do not presume to come to this thy Table, O merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in thy manifold and great mercies. We are not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under thy Table. But thou art the same Lord, whose property is always to have mercy: Grant us therefore, gracious Lord, so to eat the flesh of thy dear Son Jesus Christ, and to drink his blood, that our sinful bodies may be made clean by his body, and our souls washed through his most precious blood, and that we may evermore dwell in him, and he in us. Amen.”

A prayer which might look awkward considering where it is placed in the Canon, but is realized in all its beauty that it calls us to pause, for a moment during the consecration of the elements, and at that intense time, to reflect on our own unrighteousness and God’s infinite mercy.

The Anglican musical tradition is a gift to the whole world. The thing limping around calling itself the Church of England, that you scorn so heavily, is not the real thing. it is a bureaucratic mess. The real Church of England does live, in some places. Have you ever been to an Anglican Mass service at a conservative parish, or spoken to a conservative priest? I beg you to do so. Perhaps you might be slightly more charitable when you do.

I am sorry for this post on this Roman Catholic forum - as perhaps I have not used correct manners here - but referring to the very basis and lifeblood of my spirituality and relationship with Almighty God as a ‘brief aberration’ is certainly going to provoke a reaction.

The peace of God be always with you.

 

[jinc1019]

Have you ever read the 1662 Book of Common Prayer? This is the living, breathing basis of all my beliefs and attitudes, religious and secular. It is written as a tablet in fire. Its marriage service is a thing of both terror and beauty, much like marriage itself. Its communion service is suitably penitent, whilst also conveying the majesty of the Eucharist. Read, for example, the Prayer of Humble Access:

“We do not presume to come to this thy Table, O merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in thy manifold and great mercies. We are not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under thy Table. But thou art the same Lord, whose property is always to have mercy: Grant us therefore, gracious Lord, so to eat the flesh of thy dear Son Jesus Christ, and to drink his blood, that our sinful bodies may be made clean by his body, and our souls washed through his most precious blood, and that we may evermore dwell in him, and he in us. Amen.”

A prayer which might look awkward considering where it is placed in the Canon, but is realized in all its beauty that it calls us to pause, for a moment during the consecration of the elements, and at that intense time, to reflect on our own unrighteousness and God’s infinite mercy.

The Anglican musical tradition is a gift to the whole world. The thing limping around calling itself the Church of England, that you scorn so heavily, is not the real thing. it is a bureaucratic mess. The real Church of England does live, in some places. Have you ever been to an Anglican Mass service at a conservative parish, or spoken to a conservative priest? I beg you to do so. Perhaps you might be slightly more charitable when you do.

I am sorry for this post on this Roman Catholic forum - as perhaps I have not used correct manners here - but referring to the very basis and lifeblood of my spirituality and relationship with Almighty God as a ‘brief aberration’ is certainly going to provoke a reaction.

The peace of God be always with you.

Your comments are welcome and I find the defense of your church admirable. I really do. Personally, I believe the Church of England is just another victim of far-left socialist ideology like so many other organizations in the Western world. I believe the evidence certainly points to this and I do pray and hope your church finds its way.

 

[Indifferently]

Your comments are welcome and I find the defense of your church admirable. I really do. Personally, I believe the Church of England is just another victim of far-left socialist ideology like so many other organizations in the Western world. I believe the evidence certainly points to this and I do pray and hope your church finds its way.

I couldn’t have put it better myself. The Church has either been infiltrated by the hard left - Rowan Williams was I think once a member of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, a Moscow-funded lobby group bent on disarming the Western powers in the face of communism - or many of the clergy and people have just been turned into what Lenin would call ‘useful idiots’ of the revolutionary vanguard.

It’s not alone. You can get fairer and more balanced coverage of British news from the Russia Today news service than you can from the relentless politically-correct ideological bastion of multiculturalism, the BBC.

 

[jinc1019]

I couldn’t have put it better myself. The Church has either been infiltrated by the hard left - Rowan Williams was I think once a member of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, a Moscow-funded lobby group bent on disarming the Western powers in the face of communism - or many of the clergy and people have just been turned into what Lenin would call ‘useful idiots’ of the revolutionary vanguard.

It’s not alone. You can get fairer and more balanced coverage of British news from the Russia Today news service than you can from the relentless politically-correct ideological bastion of multiculturalism, the BBC.

America is not that far off in many respects. We are all headed that way and I fear the voice of reason needed is not currently present on the world stage.

 

[GKC]

Have you ever read the 1662 Book of Common Prayer? This is the living, breathing basis of all my beliefs and attitudes, religious and secular. It is written as a tablet in fire. Its marriage service is a thing of both terror and beauty, much like marriage itself. Its communion service is suitably penitent, whilst also conveying the majesty of the Eucharist. Read, for example, the Prayer of Humble Access:

“We do not presume to come to this thy Table, O merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in thy manifold and great mercies. We are not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under thy Table. But thou art the same Lord, whose property is always to have mercy: Grant us therefore, gracious Lord, so to eat the flesh of thy dear Son Jesus Christ, and to drink his blood, that our sinful bodies may be made clean by his body, and our souls washed through his most precious blood, and that we may evermore dwell in him, and he in us. Amen.”

A prayer which might look awkward considering where it is placed in the Canon, but is realized in all its beauty that it calls us to pause, for a moment during the consecration of the elements, and at that intense time, to reflect on our own unrighteousness and God’s infinite mercy.

The Anglican musical tradition is a gift to the whole world. The thing limping around calling itself the Church of England, that you scorn so heavily, is not the real thing. it is a bureaucratic mess. The real Church of England does live, in some places. Have you ever been to an Anglican Mass service at a conservative parish, or spoken to a conservative priest? I beg you to do so. Perhaps you might be slightly more charitable when you do.

I am sorry for this post on this Roman Catholic forum - as perhaps I have not used correct manners here - but referring to the very basis and lifeblood of my spirituality and relationship with Almighty God as a ‘brief aberration’ is certainly going to provoke a reaction.

The peace of God be always with you.

Your manners here are exemplary. You will not always find this reciprocated, on the net, in general. It is something one becomes enured to, woth time.

GKC

 

[jinc1019]

Your manners here are exemplary. You will not always find this reciprocated, on the net, in general. It is something one becomes enured to, woth time.

GKC

I agree completely!

 

[GWright]

The Anglican musical tradition is a gift to the whole world.

Hi Indifferently,

I agree with what you say above, Anglican music is indeed renowned for its beauty and its truly a gift to the world.

The thing limping around calling itself the Church of England, that you scorn so heavily,

I apologise if you were offended by my post. I was not intending to be nasty or provocative for its own (or any other) sake. I was just being honest as to my view.

I did not go out of my way to falsely portray the Anglican communion, nor to needlessly deride it. I just told it like it is.

No “scorn” was intended, I was just pointing out why I find it difficult to take the Anglican communion seriously and why I feel the (needless) difficulties they get themselves into are bad for Christianity overall.

is not the real thing. it is a bureaucratic mess. The real Church of England does live, in some places.

If it does live, then it surely must be dying. From my perspective, the ways the modern Church of England follows are the trends of the secular world, not the ways of Christ.

Have you ever been to an Anglican Mass service at a conservative parish, or spoken to a conservative priest? I beg you to do so. Perhaps you might be slightly more charitable when you do.

As a child I can recall visiting Anglican services when on holiday in England (1980s). It seemed just the same as our Catholic services. The similarity made me wonder why the CofE was distinct from the Catholic Church at all (back then I knew nothing of the reformation and all that jazz).

Are there many conservative CofE ministers in 2012? Mostly, I only know the figures presented in the media.

I have a lot of time and respect for the Archbishop of York, John Sentamu - however, the fact that he is conservative and straight talking is what essentially ruled him out of the Archbishop of Canterbury role.

Rowan “Hairy Leftie” Williams is not conservative.

Giles “Occupy” Fraser is not conservative.

The very glamourous & hip Sally Hitchiner is not conservative.

Jeffrey “civil partnership” John (or “Mandy” as I believe he was called in seminary, by the other openly gay men) is is not conservative.

Locally, I live near an Episcopal Cathedral. The (openly gay) clergyman there, Kelvin Holdsworth, recently openly defamed our Catholic defence of traditional marriage as “bigotry from the pulpit”. I can’t say I thought much of that. Kelvin is not conservative either.

I ask you: where are these conservative parishes and ministers? They do not seem to have much of a profile.

And if these parishes do exist, would they not be better off in the Anglican Ordinariate (where they can keep aspects of Anglican identity), so generously provided by our Holy Father Pope Benedict, than in the CofE with those listed above?

How long will conservative Anglicans continue to fight a futile rear-guard action? Surely it is clear that, by now, there is no way back to what the CofE once was?

What will it take for conservative Anglicans to accept the CofE experiment has been a failure, and that their true home in the Catholic Church now beckons?

I am sorry for this post on this Roman Catholic forum - as perhaps I have not used correct manners here

You have absolutely nothing to apologise for* - you are perfectly entitled to state your views and make your own arguments. I welcome hearing the points of view of others, even if they are profoundly different to my own.

(*I am not keen on the erroneous “Roman” qualifier in front of “Catholic”, but will let that go for now lol )

but referring to the very basis and lifeblood of my spirituality and relationship with Almighty God as a ‘brief aberration’ is certainly going to provoke a reaction.

I apologise if you found that remark hurtful.

By “brief abberation” I meant a short lived, (only 450 years and at deaths door already), deviation from the true faith.

I did not intend it as a snarky judgement on Anglican spirituality (of which there is much worthwhile, as we established above when discussing sacred music) or on the personal faith of any specific Anglican.

I am sorry if it came across in that way - perhaps I should have been more careful with how I phrased my post.

The peace of God be always with you.

And you, friend.

You are most welcome here on this forum and I hope you find it enjoyable.

I look forward to chatting (or crossing swords - but in a civil way, of course!) with you again in future.

God bless.

 

[Indifferently]

Thank you for the reply and well done for not backing down.

If I was to go to the Ordinariate it would only be for the fact that Rome enforces moral conservatism and a version of religious orthodoxy. I call it the ‘Roman Catholic Church’ because I see it as a Rome-based ecclesiastical polity under the governorship of a charming bishop whom I respect and like very much. One that, until recently, recruited much of its English clergy from Italy and worshipped in the tongue of the Roman Empire. That is all.

I cannot speak for High Anglicans and their beliefs. I am a conservative liturgical Protestant. I don’t view the Ordinariate as Anglican - all the compromise of the via media settlement, which informs so much of the English national character - is gone as soon as the Roman canon is inserted into the servicr of Holy Communion. The Ordinariate is most definitely Roman Catholic, wholly and completely.

If that is what they want, fine. But it’s not for me. I don’t believe the Church of England’s left)wing trajectory is permanent. If I’m wrong, other plans might need to be made. But right now I’m happy where I am.