Are Evangelical Christians Warmongers?

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exnihilo said:
I’d call preaching that the US military should start wars on other countries war mongering.

John Hagee calling for pre-emptive strikes on Iran

Funny his first concern is Israel, not the US.
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A 31 second clip from a guy who wrote a book In Defense of Israel where he contends Jesus did not want to be the Messiah.

Hagee has no real support in Evangelical circles, much like Pat Robertson.

Also the 31 second clip, what Hagees said, would fit within Just War Theory.

Again I ask for some one not on the fringes. Like in my earlier post.

Mark
 
JustaServant said:
It also might be helpful to point out that the current Republican favorite, Rick Perry, attends Hagee’s church…
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No he does not. He attends Lake Hills Church in Austin when he can, according to it’s pastor. Lake Hills use to be Lake Hills Baptist Church, dropped Baptist in 1999. He attends many different churches. He was born and raised a methodist.

Hagee attended a non-denominational prayer rally that Gov Perry organized. He, Hagee, spoke there…I think. He has endorsed Perry, but I have not see where Perry has acknowledge the endorsement.

I am not a Perry supporter. Know very little about him, though learning daily…he is running for President. All this info took about 5 minutes on google.

Mark
 
Justaservant,

Thanks for the effort, but none of your links supports the accusation evangelicals are warmongers. I went to the links and read them and read links to other blogs.

The first two links, after the google link, are two news reports using Nabil Shaath “a senior Palestinian politician” telling us Bush said this in a meeting he had with the palestinians back in what 2003. No evidence then President Bush ever said these things. Just the word of a palestinian politician who opposes US foreign policy. Last I check most Palestinians are not evangelical Christians. Both are hearsay, possible gossip.

3rd link is from a single Pastor, Pastor Brown, who opposed the war. No evidential sources of evangelicals being warmongers. Note also, he was deposed by his church
Hosanna Free Lutheran this year. Using the rules of evidence so far being introduced by this thread I guess we can assume Pastor Brown is not a worthy source and possibly a heretic or apostate. Well so far we are using what others are saying about evangelicals and throwing mud…
For the record I have not idea why he was deposed and why he started another church, per his blog I did not see much detail. Then again I did not go that far as it was and is not important to this discussion.

4th link…Huffington Post…🤷 Oh that’s an objective news source. :rolleyes:

Hagee, believe I addressed Hagee on another post in this thread. Moving on.

Sarah Palin. Nice 19 sec video clip. What was she talking about? A war? The US military helping at Katrina, or any other natural diaster. Title does not fit content.

Trailer by the Iraqi…decent bit of viewing. Noticed a lack of evangelicals or even radical muslims in the trailer. Seems to be documenting the horrors of war. Couple of scenes appeared to be staged…maybe interesting in seeing.

World Net Daily link. Did you read what the late Rev Jerry Fallwell wrote? The title again does not match the content of the article. Rev. Fallwell was using scripture to show at times war is just. Quote Old and New Testament verses on when to fight and when not. Talked about the development of a just war theory. Not very warmongering. He did have one sentence where he supported then Pres. Bush in Iraqi…something about liberating oppressed people.

Your charts. Show evangelical and catholic oppose torture about the same. 21-22%. Not warmongering, and shows evangelicals appear to be in line with white catholics. Not sure how you think this supports the accusation evangelicals are warmongers. If it is the 21 %, uh little secret…it is lower than the catholic percentage.

It appears you did what I said would happen in an earlier post. Run to google and what grap the first negative links about Pres. Bush and evangelicals? Also, Hagee…fringe.

OK…where is the evidence from denominational sources…creeds, statements of faith, etc that evangelicals are warmongers. I just saw a clip where a catholic priest was supposed to have said the church does not teach homosexual acts are sin and there are not church documents to that fact. Trying to show the looney statements of one priest does not define the Church. Finding the looney statements of one or two evangelicals or even experiencing uncrhistian behavior by some evangelicals does not make the evangelical movement.

Evangelicals have told me I am going to hell for being a catholic. Other evangelicals came and cut my grass, brought food, cared for my family when I was in the hospital with a brain tumor 7 years ago. Took care of my kids. The evangelical pre-school even made sure my kids made the sign of the cross when praying.

for the record, when I was an evangelical…I had a catholic priest tell me I was going to hell for being protestant. He would not accept I could even be a christian. He was Irish, but I know he did not speak for the Church, much less the Irish. I tried not to paint all Catholics in a certain way due to one very ignorant priest…ignorant of church teachings that is.

Mark
 
themeginthemoon said:
🤷 I am sorry Mark… I am just commenting on what I have observed here. People are very mighty scared and whitey… and fear often begets anger which begets hatred. I have been ostracized my entire life here, for being Catholic, because I am an “unsaved heathen”. It really is that bad where I live, and where I grew up… I wish I had different experiences to base my opinions on. 😊 I would love to meet some nice Evangelical Christians who were more kind and understanding about humanity. Perhaps I am just in the wrong part of the country. I really don’t like generalizing… when it comes to Evangelicals,** I have a definite bias that I need to overcome**.
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I had one about Catholics…now I am one. Pray. Just pray. Not all evangelicals are like this.

Give you my experiences with an ethnic group. Where I grew up, whites were the minority.
I could hate Creek Indians. one murdered my great-grandfather leaving my great grandmother to raise 6 kids in extreme poverty that took 2 generations to exit. My grandfather went to live and was raised by one of her good friends. Oh they happened to have black skin. His name was Uncle Duke and his wife Aunt Emmie. Growing up poor, we hunted and fished to put meat on the table. Rural life is like that. We always took part to Uncle Duke. When I asked my dad why Uncle Dukes children did not care for them in their old age…the answer was because they are no damn good (n word).
Confused me, as my dad LOVE uncle Duke, dislike his kids. Many times I was beaten up by kids/teenagers who happened to have black skin when I would go visit my Aunt and Uncle. Got so bad, I had to stop going by myself. Why was I beaten…I am white.

I had a bias to over come. When I entered the USMC, my first Captain was a black man. Who did nothing to help me over come my bias. Matter of fact he reinforced it or and he was a Yankee…did not help that issue either. It was not until I meet my wife in my early 20’s, that I was introduced to blacks who I felt were not bigoted or racists. My wife is a latina. She had a good friend who was black. When Jen first met me she hugged me. I stiffened. She noticed. We spent about 3 hours talking over some beers in a bar. My wife then girlfriend smiles when she remembers this. Jen was the first black person I met, other than my Aunt and Uncle, I could honestly say I liked. Jen was Catholic, like my wife. She prayed for me. I was changed.

Now you understand why I dislike broad bush accusations against groups.

peace,

Mark
 
MarkBrown said:
A 31 second clip from a guy who wrote a book In Defense of Israel where he contends Jesus did not want to be the Messiah.

Hagee has no real support in Evangelical circles, much like Pat Robertson.

Also the 31 second clip, what Hagees said, would fit within Just War Theory.

Again I ask for some one not on the fringes. Like in my earlier post.
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Your challenge was accepted and met. I found an evangelical. If we are going to discount any evangelical who is a warmonger then the exercise in providing proof is futile. Hagee and Robertson are two big evangelical names. You say they have no support. But they sure seem to rake in money. How do you define fringe?

Just War Theory does not allow preemptive strikes. And if it does then Hitler had every right to attack Poland. If wars are just because someone *might *do something bad then there is no unjust war.
 
exnihilo said:
Your challenge was accepted and met. I found an evangelical. If we are going to discount any evangelical who is a warmonger then the exercise in providing proof is futile. Hagee and Robertson are two big evangelical names. You say they have no support. But they sure seem to rake in money. How do you define fringe?

Just War Theory does not allow preemptive strikes. And if it does then Hitler had every right to attack Poland. If wars are just because someone *might *do something bad then there is no unjust war.
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Failed to read what I wrote. I expected some one to run to google and the internet and find a fringe guy espousing some looney thing and say…see all evangelicals are bloody thirst warmongers…I could be a prophet…but nah I just know people.

Go back and read my post. Your 31 second clip is your proof? If so you have serious issues to overcome in your attitude toward your fellow Christians. Hagee and Robertson are not big evangelical names. To say so show you have no clue what an evangelical is and what they stand for or even believe. Next you will be saying Joel Osteen is catholic!:eek: I like to point out silly positions by being silly. They are TV evangelists. Most evangelicals I know, especially pastors will get upset if you try to lump them into that mold.

To help you out, some evangelical leaders from the last 30-40 years. Schaffer, Billy Graham, J.I Packer, John Stott, Hybels (Willow Creek though his apparent cozing up to Soulforce my get him push to the edge of the herd if true), Rick Warren, Guthrie, Al Mohler, Chuck Colsen…google these guys. They are evangelical leaders and theologians. They will give you the pulse of the evangelical movement. Be careful of the emergent church crowd, most evangelicals are not ready to accept them, though I think Tim Keller maybe acceptable.

According the Just War Theory, preemptive strikes are allowed. Just go to the definition here on CAF and read it. About half way down it gives allowance for it. What Hagee said in the clip you posted is within those guidelines. That is the problem with sound bite attacks.
You can in turn get bit with the sound bite is listen too, investigated and the full comment is found.

So I know you want to claim victory and move on…I guess this is your Bush moment on the aircrafrt carrier…MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. 😊 See how well that worked for him!😃

I have now given you sources, credible evangelical sources for you to investigate to see if you can prove your accusation that our evangelical christian brethern are bloody thirsty warmongering people. What next, they have horns, tails and a pitchfork?

Mark
 
Oh I forgot the internet rule, but it only took 47 posts before someone invoked Hitler.

Wish I could say, didn’t see that coming.

Mark
 
jam070406 said:
I think perhaps some has to do their end times and rapture theology.
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Evangelicals do not share the same end time theology. Meaning not all are hold to the
Left Behind genre.

Evangelicals can be pre, amil or post mil. In the premil theology they can be pre trib, mid trib, continuous trib and post trib rapture pre-mils.

Meaning they do not agree if and when the rapture will take place and do not agree on how and when the rapture will take place.

Not all evangelicals get wrapped upon in an Israeli flag either.

It is hard for Catholics to understand protestant and much less evangelical theology.
Hey, when I was an evangelical I had a hard time understanding all the various protestant and evangelical theologies out there.

Mark
 
JHow said:
It is a simple challenge: produce the evangelical and an example of his “war-mongering”.

“Conservative, Anti-Union, Pro-Business, Pro-capital punushment, don’t believe in climate change” is simply a list of liberal shibboleths, and none of them mean the same thing as “war-monger”.

I’m starting to think the thread should be: “Are liberals bigots, because they sure argue like one?”
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I think the way people argue is just a product of the culture we have let de-evolve. Also, people will say all sorts of nasty things on the internet that they would never think about saying in person. Though some are crude enough.

Sadly, I am seeing this thread turn into a one ups man ship of who can say the biggest whopper about evangelicals. To assume they are all conservative…and like Bush…ok
got some ocean front property in Montana I would like to sell you. Really great view and not that expensive.😉

Mark
 
So I know you want to claim victory and move on…I guess this is your Bush moment on the aircrafrt carrier…MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. 😊 See how well that worked
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He got his reelection, didn’t he???🙂
 
Lets see:
John Hagee
Jerry Falwell
Billy Graham
Rick Warren
Rod Parsley

Shall I go on?

First of all, I did not write the article. A fundamentalist named Chuck Baldwin did.
This is not about Baldwin though, he just was honest enough to indentify the 800 pound gorilla sitting on the evangelical couch. Lets use it as a springboard to the larger issue.
American evangelicalism is married to an ideology that allows them to be used by those in this country who want America to be an ‘empire’.
How about this wonderful comment from Sean Hannity (a Catholic):
rawstory.com/news/2008/Hannity_suggests_Christianity_compatible_with_torture_0311.html

Soooooo, torture is okay if it’s “Christian torture”?

Baldwin is unhinged, you’ll get no argument from me on that, but l think he touched a nerve that should make every honest evangelical Christian cringe.

My father was a WW2 veteran. His generation saw things overseas that changed them forever, as any war does. My uncle was wounded at the D-Day landing. He rarely spoke about the war and when he did, this VERY large stocky man would cry like a baby. The soldiers who actually experienced war were usually the ones who didn’t view it as some kind of video game. Only armchair warriors who like like to play GI Joe with their bellies bouncing in the woods “enjoy” war.
My parents generation had a proper respect for life. I know if my father and uncle were alive today they would be HORRIFIED at Americans advocating what they defeated in WW2. The kind of tactics that drove the Nazis into historical defeat.
I suppose only those with a proper understanding of history weep at the direction our country is headed in. The fact that we now think it is perfectly okay to torture other human beings is about as low as we can sink. The idea that some can dare to bring religion into it, boggles the mind. Jesus said “you live by the sword, you die by the sword”.
The soldiers that marched off to the Civil War got a rude awakening. Fifty years later, surviving veterans warned those bright-eyed kids marching off to WW1 that it was not going to be a picnic. People dismiss what is not part of their experience, and don’t heed the warnings of those who have been there. It’s just part of the history books.
WW2 vets are dying in droves, and by the end of this decade there will be very few to warn the next generation of the path they are taking.
 
MarkBrown said:
To help you out, some evangelical leaders from the last 30-40 years. Schaffer, Billy Graham, J.I Packer, John Stott, Hybels (Willow Creek though his apparent cozing up to Soulforce my get him push to the edge of the herd if true), Rick Warren, Guthrie, Al Mohler, Chuck Colsen…google these guys.
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I think JustaServant did a pretty good job of finding the warmongering from some of the folks you listed as acceptable for this discussion.
MarkBrown said:
According the Just War Theory, preemptive strikes are allowed. Just go to the definition here on CAF and read it. About half way down it gives allowance for it. What Hagee said in the clip you posted is within those guidelines.
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I disagree. And even if it was justified it would have to be based on a standard of evidence not used by the US. Remember the US justified attacking Iraq on some very precise claims all of which turned out to be something best described by a word I can not use here. If justice allows preemptive attacks then the entire basis of the US legal system is called into question. Why couldn’t the government ‘take out’ (to use a popular euphemism for murder) American citizens who might be a threat to their neighbors?
MarkBrown said:
Oh I forgot the internet rule, but it only took 47 posts before someone invoked Hitler.
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OK, substitute Stalin for Hitler. Oh wait a minute. Stalin invaded Poland just like Hitler but we were allied with Uncle Joe Stalin even though we made war on Germany because they invaded Poland.

That rule is kinda silly since Hitler is an archetype for evil. And the chief reason for entering WWII in Europe, according to my government school teachers, was because he was invading other countries.
JustaServant said:
My father was a WW2 veteran. His generation saw things overseas that changed them forever, as any war does. My uncle was wounded at the D-Day landing. He rarely spoke about the war and when he did, this VERY large stocky man would cry like a baby. The soldiers who actually experienced war were usually the ones who didn’t view it as some kind of video game. Only armchair warriors who like like to play GI Joe with their bellies bouncing in the woods “enjoy” war
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My grandfather was a WWII vet. He didn’t speak much of it. He was very much against the Vietnam War having experienced the horrors of war himself and knowing that despite all the patriotic chest thumping it is truly Hell.
 
I would be careful to judge all Evangelicals based on the comments of a few big name leaders.

Like many I have a problem with those who are big on war but never served themselves.

Some years back my dad (who was a Freemason and anti-Catholic) was reading the obituaries and made a comment that I had also noticed some time before but never commented on. A disproportionate number of veterans, as well as policemen and firemen, were Catholics if they were church members.
 
Justaservant,

I do not think you are even reading what you are linking too.

1st link, Warren is being interviewed by Hannity. Warren actually uses biblical reasons for war, Paul writing in Romans 13, how God at times used David to defear enemies. Again
nothing warmongering. Was it in this one he says the Iranians are evil? Don’t see Warren beating the wardrum.

2nd link,an article prompting a very left wing “progressive” atheist writing against Billy Graham. No supports for supposed quotes given, except his own book, titled…Prince of War. Yeah, objective source.

3rd link…Rod parsley. Sola Dei Gloria reports on what he is supposed to have said. No link in your link. Again…denominational source documents or creeds?

The charts you like…using them to paint evangelicals as warmongers…interesting since they have a higher percentage of opposing torture than white Catholics. According to your source. If this proves evangelicals are warmongers…we catholics are worse by a percentage point.

Very few families were not affected by WWII. My grandfather and his brothers all served. Uncle John served in three wars. My grandfather had surgury until the early 1970’s to put him back together from wounds suffered inthe War. My father and my uncles served in Korea and Nam, I served and was wounded for this country. My nephew, two tours Iraqi in the Marines. Followed his uncle Mark and cousins. Blake is not evangelical. I know personally the horrors of war, the smell of burned flesh, watching someone die, ever watched a guy burned by wille pete? Google it. Still have the pocket knife the corpsman and I used to dig the pieces out of my friends body while other marines held him down.

As long as we are going for the sympathy factor.

None of the links prove a thing, exept you can not find any credible denominational documentation to support your wild and biased accusations against fellow Christians. From your links I get you are far left, hate Bush, conservatives and evangelicals. Don’t let you sins blind your reason.

Check with the SBC statement of faith. Look at the Methodists documents, Church of God, Christ, come on. If I used what you are using a proof or sources in any paper I turned in in college, seminary or graduate school, the professor would throw it out and say start over.
As a college prof, that is what I did. Know why you oppose someone with legit reasons.
Not this tripe.

I do not agree with evangelical theology and many beliefs. At least I do have a reasonable understanding and not some childish blog fetish to prove my beliefs. I look at thier documents, offical teachings…what I use to teach and believe.

Better yet, make an appointment with a local evangelical pastor and ask him what he believes and why. Go to the source, not secondary sources who have a axe to grind with and against evangelicals.

Mark
 
exnihilo said:
I think JustaServant did a pretty good job of finding the warmongering from some of the folks you listed as acceptable for this discussion.

I disagree. And even if it was justified it would have to be based on a standard of evidence not used by the US. Remember the US justified attacking Iraq on some very precise claims all of which turned out to be something best described by a word I can not use here. If justice allows preemptive attacks then the entire basis of the US legal system is called into question. Why couldn’t the government ‘take out’ (to use a popular euphemism for murder) American citizens who might be a threat to their neighbors?

OK, substitute Stalin for Hitler. Oh wait a minute. Stalin invaded Poland just like Hitler but we were allied with Uncle Joe Stalin even though we made war on Germany because they invaded Poland.

That rule is kinda silly since Hitler is an archetype for evil. And the chief reason for entering WWII in Europe, according to my government school teachers, was because he was invading other countries.

My grandfather was a WWII vet. He didn’t speak much of it. He was very much against the Vietnam War having experienced the horrors of war himself and knowing that despite all the patriotic chest thumping it is truly Hell.
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Still waiting for documents from evangelical denominations that they are warmongers.

Still waiting for evidence that mainstream evangelical leaders are warmongers. Every link I have gone to, which you or justaservant have provide fall terribly short in proving anything other than you and he/she have an axe to grind against our fellow christians.

This post, may pass for something in a highschool debate class (if you are a highschooler…oops foot in mouth) but not responsible discussion between adults about fellow Christians.

See my prior post to justaservant in regards to your other “issues”.

Mark
 
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