Are French Cardinals closet-schismatics?

[giuseppeTO]

From Catholic World News (CWN), The Pope’s direct challenge; the French bishops’ tepid response

Only about 5% of French Catholics attend Mass each week, and a growing number of young couples do not bother to arrange a church wedding or baptize their children. The country once known as the “eldest daughter of the Church” has slipped into religious indifference.

But the flight from the Catholic faith is not uniform. Traditionalist Catholics are unusually active in France, and unusually successful in attracting congregations. The vigor of traditionalist groups-- in sharp contrast to the torpor of ordinary parishes-- has given rise to severe tension. Traditionalists have frequently complained about what they see as the hostility of the French hierarchy, and the bishops in turn have strongly opposed efforts to accommodate the traditionalist liturgy.

“I hope that, thanks be to God, the necessary pacification of spirits is already taking place (in France, between Traditionalists and the hierarchy),” the Pope said (to a meeting of Bishops and Cardinals) . “I am aware of your difficulties, but I do not doubt that, within a reasonable time, you can find solutions satisfactory for all, lest the seamless tunic of Christ be further torn.”

By expressing his confidence that the French bishops could implement the motu proprio, Pope Benedict was clearly saying that they should implement it. “Everyone has a place in the Church,” the Pope added, indirectly addressing the bishops’ suspicions toward traditionalists. “Every person, without exception, should be able to feel at home, and never rejected.”

The message came through, loud and clear. But will the French hierarchy follow the papal directive? That is another question. The newspaper La Croix described the bishops’ reception of the Pope’s talk as “lukewarm.” Cardinal Vingt-Trois of Paris, speaking in his capacity as president of the French episcopal conference, told a press conference that the bishops do not have a “servile” attitude toward the Roman Pontiff. “The relationship of the Pope with the bishops is not a boss-employee relationship,” the French cardinal reminded journalists. “He is not the chief executive of a multinational corporation coming to visit a branch office.”

 

[strugglingalong]

Great. French traditionalists are so bad that they are attracting many while the New Mass parishes are empty.

God bless those traditionalists in France! Then again, if the whole Church returned fully to the Tradition maybe we’d have parishes as full and as vibrant as these traditionalist ones in France.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[DAPDN]

Cardinal Vingt-Trois of Paris, speaking in his capacity as president of the French episcopal conference, told a press conference that the bishops do not have a “servile” attitude toward the Roman Pontiff. “The relationship of the Pope with the bishops is not a boss-employee relationship,” the French cardinal reminded journalists. “He is not the chief executive of a multinational corporation coming to visit a branch office.”

This is just great…! For much less than this, Archbishop Lefebvre was excommunicated. What about this, now? In my opinion, this is a clear act of disobedience to papal authority, a crystal-clear demonstration of disobedience. And a public one, which is even worse; it seems like Cardinal Vingt-Trois is publicaly defying the authority of the Pope.

And it would/will be like that if the Pope came to Portugal - traditionalists and conservatives would complain, the Pope would admonish the bishops, and the bishops would probably give him the same answer of defiance and lack of respect towards papal authority that the french ones gave. This way, dear friends, you can see and witness the way things are in our Holy Mother Church in Continental Europe.

 

[strugglingalong]

This is just great…! For much less than this, Archbishop Lefebvre was excommunicated. What about this, now? In my opinion, this is a clear act of disobedience to papal authority, a crystal-clear demonstration of disobedience. And a public one, which is even worse; it seems like Cardinal Vingt-Trois is publicaly defying the authority of the Pope.

And it would/will be like that if the Pope came to Portugal - traditionalists and conservatives would complain, the Pope would admonish the bishops, and the bishops would probably give him the same answer of defiance and lack of respect towards papal authority that the french ones gave. This way, dear friends, you can see and witness the way things are in our Holy Mother Church in Continental Europe.

Yes, and its the SSPX who denies Papal authority. Ha! I think not. The SSPX is more loyal to the Pope than 80% of the Bishops I bet.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[DAPDN]

Now, what you’re saying is not that obvious. By staunchly rejecting Vatican II, the SSPX can’t be trully called “obedient” to the Magisterium. They are, in fact, much more obedient, to a point that makes us all joyful, in terms of liturgical orthodoxy, than 80% of the European Church, and one may say that in what concerns to the most part of the Church’s Doctrine, too. But rejecting Vatican II - which is ridiculous, by the way, because most of them, the less extremist faction, already practices its true spirit (which is the complete opposite of what is known as the “Spirit of the Vatican II”) - makes them, still, disobedient, and not in full communion with Rome.

 

[cam100]

Cardinal Vingt-Trois of Paris, speaking in his capacity as president of the French episcopal conference, told a press conference that the bishops do not have a “servile” attitude toward the Roman Pontiff. “The relationship of the Pope with the bishops is not a boss-employee relationship,” the French cardinal reminded journalists. “He is not the chief executive of a multinational corporation coming to visit a branch office.”

While I’m not sure in what context the cardinal said this, and it could be misinterpreted, he is technically correct about the bishops’ relationship with the pope. This quote itself does not imply a schismatic or disobedient attitude.

On the hand, since you had to bring it up, Archbishop Lefebvre did something that is viewed by the Church as so tragic that it carries an automatic excommunication. But let’s not get into that here… It’s been discussed quite thoroughly elsewhere.

 

[DAPDN]

Still, you can’t forget that the Bishop of Rome is primus inter pares. The bishops owe him obedience, because of Papal supremacy. The Pope is not only the Bishop of Rome, he is the sucessor of Peter. Let’s not try to run away from the facts.

 

[cam100]

Still, you can’t forget that the Bishop of Rome is primus inter pares. The bishops owe him obedience, because of Papal supremacy. The Pope is not only the Bishop of Rome, he is the sucessor of Peter. Let’s not try to run away from the facts.

Of course the bishops owe the pope obedience, but the quote by Cardinal Vingt-Trois doesn’t deny this. It says nothing contradictory to the faith.

 

[DAPDN]

If the Pope says “You should allow and arrange for more parishes being able to host the celebration of the Tridentine Latin Mass”, and Cardinal Vingt-Trois replies something like “We bishops don’t just simply take orders like that, the Pope’s relation with us is nothing like «employer-worker»”, doesn’t this seems to you like he is not willing to cumply? So, what do you call when you don’t cumply to an order you’ve been given? That’s what I’m saying. It does looks like that, for me.

 

[Jo_Benedict]

It is fine to disagree with members of the hierarchy. For the future, if you must do so, do it without using derogatory terms such as “closet-schismatics.” Thanks.

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This thread is closed. Thanks to all who participated in the discussion.