Are gay Catholics condemned to loneliness?

[ArielRussu]

No difference. A call to celibacy is a call to celibacy, no matter the reason. SSA Catholics are called to celibacy. Period. If they fail, and are contrite, they go to confession and receive reconciliation. Just like anyone else who sins.

The point is, The Church isn’t demanding anything of SSA Catholics that it doesn’t demand of its own priests and bishops.

Yes, there is a difference, a big difference, one has the choice to remain celibate, the other is mandated to remain celibate. Gay people don’t have a choice when it comes to sex and romantic love. According to the Catholic Church, there option is remain celibate. unless of course the gay person is prepared to live a lie with someone of the opposite gender whom they have no attraction too in order to fit in, which like I stated in the previous post, many gay people have found out DOESN’T work in the long run. Priests and bishops have a choice. They choose celibacy, it’s not mandated of them as a person because they could just choose not to enter priesthood and marry a woman instead. In fact there have been priests who first married then years later after their spouse died, decided to enter the priesthood. For gay people there is zero hope for romantic love.

 

[Sarcelle]

Yes, there is a difference, a big difference, one has the choice to remain celibate, the other is mandated to remain celibate. Gay people don’t have a choice when it comes to sex and romantic love. According to the Catholic Church, there option is remain celibate. unless of course the gay person is prepared to live a lie with someone of the opposite gender whom they have no attraction too in order to fit in, which like I stated in the previous post, many gay people have found out DOESN’T work in the long run. Priests and bishops have a choice. They choose celibacy, it’s not mandated of them as a person because they could just choose not to enter priesthood and marry a woman instead. In fact there have been priests who first married then years later after their spouse died, decided to enter the priesthood. For gay people there is zero hope for romantic love.

Well how about single heterosexuals who cannot find anyone despite their best efforts?

Or how about divorced Catholics who cannot get annulments?

 

[faithsmind]

Yes, there is a difference, a big difference, one has the choice to remain celibate, the other is mandated to remain celibate. Gay people don’t have a choice when it comes to sex and romantic love. According to the Catholic Church, there option is remain celibate. unless of course the gay person is prepared to live a lie with someone of the opposite gender whom they have no attraction too in order to fit in, which like I stated in the previous post, many gay people have found out DOESN’T work in the long run. Priests and bishops have a choice. They choose celibacy, it’s not mandated of them as a person because they could just choose not to enter priesthood and marry a woman instead. In fact there have been priests who first married then years later after their spouse died, decided to enter the priesthood. For gay people there is zero hope for romantic love.

The SSA person has the choice to commit to his faith or not. Different Christians have different challenges. Christ is not forcing anyone into anything.

 

[Bataar]

I’m probably being a jerk but I think many of these people simply won’t make time for their old friends. Marriage changes you but not to the point that your single friends become unrelatable. I haven’t let marriage stop me valuing my friends.

How many new, good friends do you have though? I don’t have any “old” friends, just people I’ve grown to be friends with in the last few years. Some of the friends I have are really nice guys, but they’re married and have small kids and the vast majority of the time I invite them to do something, it conflicts with something family related. Typically his social activities involve his family or his wife’s family or events with his “old” friends. When he does have time for a break and can hang out with a friend, would he rather hang out with one of his old friends who he doesn’t get to see much or a brand new friend that he doesn’t yet have a strong relationship with?

 

[Bataar]

Aren’t you the one that despises small talk? This may be what is limiting your options.

Part of socialization is enduring the small talk, especially with people you have just met.

Also, if you do have a wife and she wants to talk about things that you do not consider important, for the sake of your marriage, you better brush up on your listening skills.

Either that, or be prepared to be lonely for the rest of your life.

I like talking with people I know and care about, it’s new people that I struggle with. I’ve accepted that things won’t get better for me, but for others who are single, I’m merely pointing out the struggles we face.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

How many new, good friends do you have though? I don’t have any “old” friends, just people I’ve grown to be friends with in the last few years. Some of the friends I have are really nice guys, but they’re married and have small kids and the vast majority of the time I invite them to do something, it conflicts with something family related. Typically his social activities involve his family or his wife’s family or events with his “old” friends. When he does have time for a break and can hang out with a friend, would he rather hang out with one of his old friends who he doesn’t get to see much or a brand new friend that he doesn’t yet have a strong relationship with?

Not as many as I would like and they are all distance but marriage has not made a difference. I actually got married just after another friend and we both made a pledge to not become boring married people who don’t see friends. I do think it’s harder with male friends, they tend to default to their wives plans, my husband is guilty of this although we have mutual friends.

I don’t like small talk either, I don’t mind with strangers but I find it really awkward when you have known someone for a while and you are still only on small talk, it just gets more awkward with time.

Society has changed, we are more mobile and transient which inevitably weakens our friendships, a romantic love interest can offer us the hope of a permanent relationship that can endure through relocations and life changes. Making new friends when you have no shared history and nothing that brings you together is hard.

 

[at9009]

Yeah, and I do have deep friendships with married females that I treasure.
But there are those days and moments where you can’t help but feel left out, or I begin to overly romanticize the marriage relationship as an outsider looking in.

As far as Bataar, I don’t know how he relates on a platonic level with males. It seems there’s always that attraction in the background which could threaten and complicate a Godly relationship. But, perhaps he prefers the company of women more? A faith-sharing group might be an incredibly rewarding solution to his struggle with loneliness.

I think, from my perspective, there is no kinda sorta attitude one with this particular cross that can be very toxic and ultimately detrimental to one’s faith journey. When I started to really accept that this was my cross, I basically had the attitude of any friendship or interaction with another guy had to be closely monitored to ensure that I didn’t get too close, didn’t lead to any possible temptations, etc.

It made it incredibly hard to actually make connections (when I was literally analyzing all of my words, speech and behaviors) not to mention was basically not okay with being vulnerable or any physical intimacy (referring to non-sexual things like hugs here because was viewing it as a potential occasion of sin). I had this fear that getting too close would only lead to heart break as it would possibly lead to developing of romantic feelings which I thought would be incredibly painful. So my solution was to avoid the situation (wasn’t really a conscious decision but looking back I can see the patterns now).

That lead to profound moments of loneliness, feeling like I literally had no one to talk with (not out to family or pretty much anyone in person especially at that time), and lead to feelings of emptiness and lots of envy towards those who could be in relationships (Valentine’s day is still a bad period for me). I also kept a little distance from women because I still relate better to other guys as friends and didn’t want to inadvertently lead them on and cause them pain. So, I had settled on being the third wheel or almost peripheral friend at best. I was able to use school as a tool to ignore my feelings until they bottled up later and lead to a pretty big depressive period (luckily found support shortly after).

Eventually, I have had friendships where I was open about me and let it be more natural. In only a few times did romantic feelings develop but I talked about it with the friend and we discussed boundaries, etc. However, eventually those romantic feelings subsided but I still cared for and had affection for the friend (minus the frustrating romantic feelings). Being able to have a friends like this where I can be open and vulnerable is a tremendous support in maintaining chastity as it fills a lot of those needs that if left unfilled can easily lead to temptation to sin (i.e. pornography or masturbation). Most of these friends (other celibate Christians) are via online connections so we mostly interact over video chats but having meant them in person solidified the relationships and has provided me support.

I will say that there are a surprising amount of celibate gay/ssa Christians out there looking for support, some of which people have found in groups like Courage or through spiritualfriendship.org. So, thankfully living in this age of technology allows communication across vast distances to make sustaining many friendships easier.

 

[Norseman82]

I don’t see this loneliness as a Catholic problem as much as society in general problem. I think there is a real tendency to see being paired up, preferably with children as the preferred state. On a practical level many people who pair up (whether gay or straight, Christian or non-Christian, married or cohabiting) will cut themselves off and only make time for their partner. In addition parents are a lot more cautious about who they have around their children. Sometimes it seems that people conflate the paired up state with maturity despite the character of the person.

All this can unintentionally leave singles out in the cold so it doesn’t surprise me that people are horrified at the idea of enforced celibacy. It shouldn’t inevitably mean lonely but it too often does.

That’s because this is the biblical norm - the first thing God said after finishing creation was “It is not good for the man to be alone”. That is why God created Eve. Then He told them to be fruitful and multiply.

This is the natural order that Satan is trying to destroy.

 

[Norseman82]

Big difference. Priest choose to remain celibate, and unless they are gay themselves have the option of marrying a woman and having sex. Homosexuals have no choice in the matter, and no, telling someone to pray the gay away and suppress there attraction and marry a woman isn’t an intelligent option. For many have tried that and found in the long run, living a lie doesn’t work.

NYC mayor Bill DeBlasio’s wife is a former lesbian:

nydailynews.com/news/election/de-blasio-wife-chirlane-mccray-talks-lesbian-article-1.1339398

 

[at9009]

NYC mayor Bill DeBlasio’s wife is a former lesbian:

nydailynews.com/news/election/de-blasio-wife-chirlane-mccray-talks-lesbian-article-1.1339398

Not sure how that is relevant. For the vast majority attractions don’t seem to change just looking at the failure of groups like exodus which even basically skewed data by calling celibate gay/ssa people as exgay. The reality is that a large portion, this attraction is a cross to bear this side of heaven. There is also a lot of scars and abuse some have dealt with such efforts so I don’t think acting like it’s a magic fix is particularly helpful (the therapy often kinda encouraged a gospel of prosperity type attitude I find incredibly flawed and it has a very skewed approach to therapy in general.

spiritualfriendship.org/2013/08/09/celibacy-and-healing/

spiritualfriendship.org/2014/02/01/honesty-about-orientation-change/

spiritualfriendship.org/2012/07/13/false-hope/

 

[PluniaZ]

I like talking with people I know and care about, it’s new people that I struggle with. I’ve accepted that things won’t get better for me, but for others who are single, I’m merely pointing out the struggles we face.

I’m basically in the same boat. Some days/weeks/months I’m really depressed about it, others I enjoy not having to worry about ever dealing with a relationship. Jesus will get us through it. Life is short. Heaven is forever.

 

[AdamP88]

I agree, but it’s very, very hard for single people to make good friends as other people will be married and have kids and they simply don’t have time for their single friends.

So you make the time. Friendships are important for married people too.

 

[pensmama87]

So you make the time. Friendships are important for married people too.

Right. Many married people feel the sting of losing friendships, too, especially after having kids. People can be cruel and thoughtless regardless of their state in life. That said, there’s also such a thing as growing apart, and that’s not a bad thing, either, just part of life. Not everyone will be a good friend to you through every stage of life. Most people never have more than one or two very close friends.

I think the important thing, for any lonely person, is not to stew in blaming others for their loneliness, but to be proactive, sociable, and get out there and meet folks, expecting that while not everyone will be someone to share secrets with, you can be friendly with almost everyone. That will lead to mostly pleasant social interactions, which paves the way for fun acquaintances and eventually strong friendships - and for those to last, they need nurturing just like romantic and family relationships.

 

[StudentMI]

In a unique way, yes they are. I speak from experience.

I find it odd that Catholics seem to be so adverse to hearing the testimony of gay Catholics who don’t fit the Courage model of ‘I joined a group and I’m totally cool with everything now.’ It’s more complicated than that. There’s no sin in admitting that, nothing anti-Catholic.

 

[Peter_J]

How many new, good friends do you have though? I don’t have any “old” friends, just people I’ve grown to be friends with in the last few years. Some of the friends I have are really nice guys, but they’re married and have small kids and the vast majority of the time I invite them to do something, it conflicts with something family related. Typically his social activities involve his family or his wife’s family or events with his “old” friends. When he does have time for a break and can hang out with a friend, would he rather hang out with one of his old friends who he doesn’t get to see much or a brand new friend that he doesn’t yet have a strong relationship with?

Not to get too far off topic, but you reminded me of some of those “new friend vs old friend” commentaries, e.g. buzzfeed.com/floperry/how-you-act-with-your-new-friend-vs-your-best-friend

 

[Bataar]

So you make the time. Friendships are important for married people too.

Right, but me, as the single person cannot make them make time for me. This mindset does not help the single person at all.

 

[Bataar]

=think the important thing, for any lonely person, is not to stew in blaming others for their loneliness, but to be proactive, sociable, and get out there and meet folks, expecting that while not everyone will be someone to share secrets with, you can be friendly with almost everyone. That will lead to mostly pleasant social interactions, which paves the way for fun acquaintances and eventually strong friendships - and for those to last, they need nurturing just like romantic and family relationships.

This is true initially. I definitely don’t blame anyone. It’s just my state in life. Like I said, I’ve pretty much just accepted it at this point and moved on. Over the years, I’ve just run out of ideas of anything to go out and do by myself, at least that have any chance of meeting people. I’ll walk my dog or go out for some photo shoots, but that’s about it.

 

[Herculees]

It’s not the celibate part that is the problem, but the social. As a single adult, I am very lonely. I have some friends, but they’re all married with kids and so I rarely get to interact with them since, rightfully so, their families come first. If you’re in a relationship, not only do you have the comfort and closeness of that person, but it would open whole other avenues of social options not available to single/lonely people.

I’m a celibate woman that lives alone. I do however have many friends both male and female (some married some not) that I socialize with. Usually over a cup of coffee. I am also actively involved in many ministries which brings a sense of fulfillment.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

Right. Many married people feel the sting of losing friendships, too, especially after having kids. People can be cruel and thoughtless regardless of their state in life. That said, there’s also such a thing as growing apart, and that’s not a bad thing, either, just part of life. Not everyone will be a good friend to you through every stage of life. Most people never have more than one or two very close friends.

I think the important thing, for any lonely person, is not to stew in blaming others for their loneliness, but to be proactive, sociable, and get out there and meet folks, expecting that while not everyone will be someone to share secrets with, you can be friendly with almost everyone. That will lead to mostly pleasant social interactions, which paves the way for fun acquaintances and eventually strong friendships - and for those to last, they need nurturing just like romantic and family relationships.

I definitely went through the blame stage when I was younger. I put a lot of energy into joining groups and trying to make new friends and it didn’t bear fruit. It wasn’t a good place. Now I don’t actively try to find new friends but keep an open mind and heart to new people. I expect less from my parish and less from other people and it’s definitely healthier. I forced myself to get over my anxiety of doing things alone so I can still go out and enjoy myself. I set aside time to visit my old friends and family and use technology to keep in touch as it’s far more fulfilling than forcing small talk with a bunch of awkward acquaintances.

 

[AdamP88]

Right, but me, as the single person cannot make them make time for me. This mindset does not help the single person at all.

Yes. That’s true. But as a married person I think that’s a bad thing. I remember being at a religious talk for men a while after my wedding. Most of the men there were married. The theme of the talk was Christian charity. One of the things the priest said was that marriage should not be an excuse to ignore good friendships that we have. That married life is busy and hectic, but that an effort must be made to maintain friendships.
It’s true that some friends grow apart with the years and that’s normal sometimes, but married people should make the effort to maintain friendships too.