Are gay Catholics condemned to loneliness?

[S_A_M]

Replace the words “gay Catholic” with “priest” and see if that changes your perspective.

Everyone is expected to sacrifice something for God’s service. It’s just a question of what.

totally agree

 

[Peter_J]

Right. Many married people feel the sting of losing friendships, too, especially after having kids. People can be cruel and thoughtless regardless of their state in life. That said, there’s also such a thing as growing apart, and that’s not a bad thing, either, just part of life. Not everyone will be a good friend to you through every stage of life. Most people never have more than one or two very close friends.

I think the important thing, for any lonely person, is not to stew in blaming others for their loneliness, but to be proactive, sociable, and get out there and meet folks, expecting that while not everyone will be someone to share secrets with, you can be friendly with almost everyone. That will lead to mostly pleasant social interactions, which paves the way for fun acquaintances and eventually strong friendships - and for those to last, they need nurturing just like romantic and family relationships.

If I might piggyback on that a little, it is also possible for the single person to need to adjust.

Like say that a couple has two single friends, Bob and Betty. Bob and Betty are not interested in each other romantically (for,whatever reason, not necessarily sexual orientation – and it might even be that they tried dating before and it didn’t work out).

Hopefully it goes without saying that the couple shouldn’t expect Bob and Betty to become a couple just to make them happy … but the flip side is that Bob and Betty could make a reasonable effort to be friends with each other, at least enough that the four of them could do things together. I mean as opposed to Bob expecting the couple (or the husband from that couple) to do things with just him.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Not gay but in the “more likely than not to never marry and be single for life” demographic. My 3 best friends in HS are now all married, and there has certainly been a change in how I relate to them. I feel more like an occasional visitor into their lives than a daily part of them, the way it was when we were teenagers, so long ago. And while I have made friends with other singles, most are younger than me, and though not all fit the Millenial stereotypes, I’m sure my aversion to Social Media keeps me from being in the “loop” with them as much as I otherwise would.

I didn’t choose to be single, and at times I even wish I hailed from some culture that practiced arranged marriages. Same issue with many Christians denying that being single is a vocation and seeing singles of a certain age as second-class citizens.

Not as bad in Catholic circles, but the issue of “is singleness a vocation” has certainly been debated a lot and many Catholics would say “people are called either to marriage or the religious life” and it seems just being single with no hope for marriage is no longer by itself considered a qualification for religious life (as it seems ot have been in the past).

Maybe it would be presumptuous to claim I am just as lonely as a chaste gay person. But at times I do wonder if the way I feel is at least slightly similar to how they feel.

 

[faithsmind]

I think, from my perspective, there is no kinda sorta attitude one with this particular cross that can be very toxic and ultimately detrimental to one’s faith journey. When I started to really accept that this was my cross, I basically had the attitude of any friendship or interaction with another guy had to be closely monitored to ensure that I didn’t get too close, didn’t lead to any possible temptations, etc.

It made it incredibly hard to actually make connections (when I was literally analyzing all of my words, speech and behaviors) not to mention was basically not okay with being vulnerable or any physical intimacy (referring to non-sexual things like hugs here because was viewing it as a potential occasion of sin). I had this fear that getting too close would only lead to heart break as it would possibly lead to developing of romantic feelings which I thought would be incredibly painful. So my solution was to avoid the situation (wasn’t really a conscious decision but looking back I can see the patterns now).

That lead to profound moments of loneliness, feeling like I literally had no one to talk with (not out to family or pretty much anyone in person especially at that time), and lead to feelings of emptiness and lots of envy towards those who could be in relationships (Valentine’s day is still a bad period for me). I also kept a little distance from women because I still relate better to other guys as friends and didn’t want to inadvertently lead them on and cause them pain. So, I had settled on being the third wheel or almost peripheral friend at best. I was able to use school as a tool to ignore my feelings until they bottled up later and lead to a pretty big depressive period (luckily found support shortly after).

Eventually, I have had friendships where I was open about me and let it be more natural. In only a few times did romantic feelings develop but I talked about it with the friend and we discussed boundaries, etc. However, eventually those romantic feelings subsided but I still cared for and had affection for the friend (minus the frustrating romantic feelings). Being able to have a friends like this where I can be open and vulnerable is a tremendous support in maintaining chastity as it fills a lot of those needs that if left unfilled can easily lead to temptation to sin (i.e. pornography or masturbation). Most of these friends (other celibate Christians) are via online connections so we mostly interact over video chats but having meant them in person solidified the relationships and has provided me support.

I will say that there are a surprising amount of celibate gay/ssa Christians out there looking for support, some of which people have found in groups like Courage or through spiritualfriendship.org. So, thankfully living in this age of technology allows communication across vast distances to make sustaining many friendships easier.

Thank you for your Christian witness. Christ fulfills that true longing, the whole person. People are more than their sexual feelings. Outsiders don’t seem to understand the cross… Paul’s teaching on the value of the cross. True followers of Christ choose to embrace the cross instead of going the opposite way, dragging it on the ankle.

If I do have my annulment denied, I have a lot of dreams that I want to accomplish that I might not be able to accomplish if there were another person’s wants and needs in the picture. It’s easy to dwell on all the things we don’t have, but there is also a very positive side to the freedom of a single life.

 

[at9009]

Thank you for your Christian witness. Christ fulfills that true longing, the whole person. People are more than their sexual feelings. Outsiders don’t seem to understand the cross… Paul’s teaching on the value of the cross. True followers of Christ choose to embrace the cross instead of going the opposite way, dragging it on the ankle.

Thanks. A lot of support I owe to people like Wesley Hill, Eve Tushnet, and Ron Belgau. People who wrote about their personal experiences who helped me realize that I’m not alone and have conversations about how best to support LGBT/ssa people with conservative sexual ethics like that of the Catholic Church.

If I do have my annulment denied, I have a lot of dreams that I want to accomplish that I might not be able to accomplish if there were another person’s wants and needs in the picture. It’s easy to dwell on all the things we don’t have, but there is also a very positive side to the freedom of a single life.

That is a great and healthy attitude. I pray that whatever happens God gives you the strength, courage, and peace with his ultimate path for you. Know also that something I always needed reminded to be is that single does not have to mean alone and without love. There is deep love possible in genuine friendship (it always reminds me of John 15:13).

 

[at9009]

Also somewhat tangentially related to the original topic at hand. This is Wesley Hill, a celibate gay/ssa Christian (He’s actually an Anglican Professor at a university in Pennsylvania) who wrote “Washed and Waiting.” Anyway, he spoke to a group of I think college aged kids and said this:

Here is his full talk: advance.cccu.org/stories/a-necessary-pairing-the-theology-of-marriage-and-of-compassion

Here’s an excerpt (added some bolded emphasis and think it can kinda apply a little to celibate Catholics too in our current culture. The talk is also geared towards Evangelicals i think but still find it helpful:

I want to suggest to you that one of the most important things you can do on your campuses is cast a vision of what a hopeful future could look like for your students who are same-sex attracted**. For so many of us, when we think about living out our lives in the evangelical church as gay—and as celibate, probably, for most of us—the future looks blank. We can’t picture what it would look like because we don’t have models of how this goes. I’ve spent all my life in the church, and I have rarely seen people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s who are talking openly about what it looks like to embrace a vocation of celibacy.**

I remember recently talking to a Roman Catholic friend of mine who grew up in the church. He said, “From the time I was 4 years old, it was a huge question in my mind as to whether God might call me to be celibate”—because God might call him to be a priest. As soon as I heard him say that, I thought, “Our childhoods were so profoundly different because it never occurred to me that God might call me to be celibate. It never occurred to me to contemplate the single life.” I always simply assumed I’d go to college and meet my spouse like my parents did and live a Christian life by having kids and being part of a family values church. That was the future; that was the path. It never occurred to me that God might have in mind a vocation of celibacy. I apparently never read 1 Corinthians 7.

But this is the challenge for you, to cast a vision—and it doesn’t have to be one vision; I think there are 100 different models that this could take for your students—but to cast a vision [for your students]: “This is what a hopeful future looks like for you. If you’re same-sex attracted, and you’ve tried everything, and you haven’t experienced one iota of change in your same-sex attraction, and you’re wanting to give your life to God in celibacy, that does not have to equal loneliness. That does not have to equal isolation. … There’s a life for you. There’s a future for you that doesn’t simply look like alienation from your fellow believers in the church who seem to be so fixated on the nuclear family.” … What I am praying for you is that you will find yourself thinking of your same-sex attracted students not as a liability on your campus, but as people you’re in solidarity with.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

Yes. That’s true. But as a married person I think that’s a bad thing. I remember being at a religious talk for men a while after my wedding. Most of the men there were married. The theme of the talk was Christian charity. One of the things the priest said was that marriage should not be an excuse to ignore good friendships that we have. That married life is busy and hectic, but that an effort must be made to maintain friendships.
It’s true that some friends grow apart with the years and that’s normal sometimes, but married people should make the effort to maintain friendships too.

I’m really glad to hear that a priest said that. I think a lot of couples believe that in order to have a strong marriage you need to completely focus on your spouse to the exclusion of everyone else.

 

[Bataar]

I’m really glad to hear that a priest said that. I think a lot of couples believe that in order to have a strong marriage you need to completely focus on your spouse to the exclusion of everyone else.

Yup, I can definitely agree. I’ve lost numerous friends over the years due to marriage. Of all the guy friends I’ve had that have gotten married, I’ve only been able to remain friends with one of them.

 

[AdamP88]

Yup, I can definitely agree. I’ve lost numerous friends over the years due to marriage. Of all the guy friends I’ve had that have gotten married, I’ve only been able to remain friends with one of them.

That’s a pity. Really all it takes is a little bit of awareness on the married person’s side to realise that they shouldn’t lose good friends because they’re married.

 

[at9009]

That’s a pity. Really all it takes is a little bit of awareness on the married person’s side to realise that they shouldn’t lose good friends because they’re married.

The patterned I seemed to notice is there is at least in the US (can’t speak elsewhere) this tendency to only really look for friends in a similar life state. So with this attitude, people who marry kinda sometimes phase of their single friends in favor of coupled friends for I guess convenience and the possibility of doing couple type activities or something. So, usually unintentionally, the single friend kinda drifts away.

 

[Bataar]

The patterned I seemed to notice is there is at least in the US (can’t speak elsewhere) this tendency to only really look for friends in a similar life state. So with this attitude, people who marry kinda sometimes phase of their single friends in favor of coupled friends for I guess convenience and the possibility of doing couple type activities or something. So, usually unintentionally, the single friend kinda drifts away.

I believe this hits the nail on the head. As people get older, most will probably end up married and will take on this mentality. This leaves those of us doomed to singleness even extra lonely. Not only do we not get a romantic, intimate relationship, we lose and can’t make casual social relationships either.

 

[AdamP88]

I believe this hits the nail on the head. As people get older, most will probably end up married and will take on this mentality. This leaves those of us doomed to singleness even extra lonely. Not only do we not get a romantic, intimate relationship, we lose and can’t make casual social relationships either.

I honestly can’t understand that attitude. My best friend is a single guy. And my wife and I often have him over for dinner and a movie etc. We were both in the Dominicans. I left after a year. He stayed until recently and then decided to leave. I can tell he needs good friends right now as he’s sort of reevaluating his options in life and I think feeling a bit lost. I’m so thankful to have such a good friend. In fairness we’re more like brothers. I can’t imagine my marriage being a factor that causes us to grow apart.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

The pattern I seemed to notice is there is at least in the US (can’t speak elsewhere) this tendency to only really look for friends in a similar life state. So with this attitude, people who marry kinda sometimes phase of their single friends in favor of coupled friends for I guess convenience and the possibility of doing couple type activities or something. So, usually unintentionally, the single friend kinda drifts away.

This is generally very true and was a painful part of my experience being single, too (although I am married now). It also makes it more difficult to make friends if you are new to a parish where most of the people around your age are married. The other women in their 30s were all married with young kids, and I was just never able to break into that group. Not that I really blame them; I am sure that when you have young kids, it is hard to find time to keep up the friendships that you already have, much less make new friends, too.

 

[Bataar]

I honestly can’t understand that attitude. My best friend is a single guy. And my wife and I often have him over for dinner and a movie etc. We were both in the Dominicans. I left after a year. He stayed until recently and then decided to leave. I can tell he needs good friends right now as he’s sort of reevaluating his options in life and I think feeling a bit lost. I’m so thankful to have such a good friend. In fairness we’re more like brothers. I can’t imagine my marriage being a factor that causes us to grow apart.

How long have the two of you been friends? If you’ve been friends a long time, I can see that happening. It sounds like you’ve been friends for quite a while so that makes sense. In my case, I don’t have any old friends. The friends I lost due to marriage were relatively new friendships. I’d known the guy probably around a year or so when he got married. Between his new wife, her family, her friends and his old friends, he didn’t have time to keep in contact with the new friend. That has been the case on my end. I’ve pretty much given up on trying to befriend guys who are already married because that has proven to be a pointless endeavor.

 

[AdamP88]

How long have the two of you been friends? If you’ve been friends a long time, I can see that happening. It sounds like you’ve been friends for quite a while so that makes sense. In my case, I don’t have any old friends. The friends I lost due to marriage were relatively new friendships. I’d known the guy probably around a year or so when he got married. Between his new wife, her family, her friends and his old friends, he didn’t have time to keep in contact with the new friend. That has been the case on my end. I’ve pretty much given up on trying to befriend guys who are already married because that has proven to be a pointless endeavor.

We’ve been friends about five years now. I think you’re right that perhaps new friendships suffer more. Perhaps I’m unusual in that my wife encourages me to have “guy time” with my friends. I also tend to encourage her to invest time in developing friendships. More so because she is from Latvia and left many of her friends to live in Ireland with me. People need friends other than their spouse.

 

[Peter_J]

To the last few posts, I would chime in this: from my experience it seems like many wives and husbands don’t believe in “guy time” because for them it’s kind of like code for irresponsibility (I don’t mean doing anything really bad, but self indulgence and vices like drinking too much, eating whatever one feels like, spending too much time just having fun, being obnoxious, whatever) … which can then become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[at9009]

To the last few posts, I would chime in this: from my experience it seems like many wives and husbands don’t believe in “guy time” because for them it’s kind of like code for irresponsibility (I don’t mean doing anything really bad, but self indulgence and vices like drinking too much, eating whatever one feels like, spending too much time just having fun, being obnoxious, whatever) … which can then become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Add on that from my own experiences, it still seems like the attitude that is common place is singleness = lack of maturity so the now ‘mature’ married couple wants friendships with other mature people (at least how I’ve seen some Christians act towards single people). Even most of the young adults groups I was involved with were basically nothing more than premarital groups where the main focus ending up being dating and marriage. Being celibate without the possibility of marriage made it feel less worth attending overtime.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

Add on that from my own experiences, it still seems like the attitude that is common place is singleness = lack of maturity so the now ‘mature’ married couple wants friendships with other mature people (at least how I’ve seen some Christians act towards single people). Even most of the young adults groups I was involved with were basically nothing more than premarital groups where the main focus ending up being dating and marriage. Being celibate without the possibility of marriage made it feel less worth attending overtime.

Despite Catholic teaching on the value of celibacy and single vocations, on a cultural level we still seem to see it as a temporary state that just needs managing until the person reaches the proper state of being married. I guess there is always aspects of the secular world creeping into the church.

As a married but childless adult I am coming to terms with the fact I may well never be considered fully adult in my parish whatever the church teaches about confirmation. I imagine this can be similar for singles and now I’m aging out of the young adult category.

 

[AdamP88]

To the last few posts, I would chime in this: from my experience it seems like many wives and husbands don’t believe in “guy time” because for them it’s kind of like code for irresponsibility (I don’t mean doing anything really bad, but self indulgence and vices like drinking too much, eating whatever one feels like, spending too much time just having fun, being obnoxious, whatever) … which can then become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Possibly. But both my wife and I would tend to think that guy/girl time is something necessary and important. Certainly for me it is.

 

[at9009]

Despite Catholic teaching on the value of celibacy and single vocations, on a cultural level we still seem to see it as a temporary state that just needs managing until the person reaches the proper state of being married. I guess there is always aspects of the secular world creeping into the church.

As a married but childless adult I am coming to terms with the fact I may well never be considered fully adult in my parish whatever the church teaches about confirmation. I imagine this can be similar for singles and now I’m aging out of the young adult category.

Yeah, culture tells you that the biggest most important focus of one’s live is finding ‘the one’ which equates to fulfillment and happiness. Otherwise it is implied you are alone, unfulfilled and without love. Even many Christians seemingly unintentionally encourage this type of attitude. Like with the view of purity I see as basically some have the impression of ‘white knuckle it’ till you find the one and they you can have ‘all the fun’ worry free (or something to that extent which I realize is a gross oversimplification of ‘purity culture’). However, I’ve been to enough talks, Christian groups for my age to realize that essentially no one even among Catholics really talks about celibate vocations (maybe with the one exception when someone mentions religious life). It’s hard to not feel left out and forgotten one again.

Add on to that, that as a gay celibate Catholic, I know a a decent minority in various parishes I have attended that would be scandalized just by the fact that I was gay regardless of my commitment to celibacy and chastity. So, I end up feeling like the ugly step child most of the time; not really wanted but merely tolerated. I thank God for the grace and strength I get through the sacraments like the Eucharist (when I’m able to receive) and of confession (when I need it). I often feel discouraged by fellow Christians at times and this kinda secrecy I carry with my cross (where I sometimes add ambiguity when I talk about my faith journey to avoid me becoming a wedge issue), just is incredibly exhausting at times. I can see why a lot of gay Catholics trying to live within church teaching get lonely, I get it too often. I’m just lucky I have found support from other gay/ssa people who are trying to live within a traditional sexual ethic.

One common theme I have seen is a relative lack of support within church communities which would be a good discussion on how to fix. Instead, we are caught in the culture war of US vs THEM where the only discussion is why gay marriage is bad and why the acts are bad. A lot of us would like to have the discussion given the church teaching on X, how do we best support one another to live within that context.