Are gay Catholics condemned to loneliness?

[at9009]

Nothing is impossible with God.

True. BUT we are also not promised that our crosses will be removed this side of Heaven and it is not a requirement either. We do not chose our temptations, we choose how to react to them. Your causal suggestion that a gay person basically must remove their temptations to be acceptable is contrary to the Gospel, contrary to Catholic teaching, and just flat out wrong.

Mainstream “Catholicism”? No. My words are, thankfully, not in line with that. Traditional Catholic understanding? Absolutely.

also not in line with church teaching, but hey why let little pesky details like that get in the way huh?

Consider this my last conversation with you. You lack any semblance of grace or compassion on this issue. Your ego and self righteous attitude will only succeed in pushing many vulnerable people away from the church especially since many of your statements are just wrong. But hey atleast you can pat yourself on the back for being a ‘true Catholic.’ I pray for you and wish you the best, but I will not engage you again on this forums.

 

[mathematoons]

I would rather learn my child had been burnt alive in a fire than learn they had engaged in this sin.

I would say this about any mortal sin, not just sodomy (though sexual sins are more tempting when the culture encourages them). Anyone who dies in a state of grace will go to Heaven. Someone who commits a mortal sin can easily find that they like the sin too much to even want to repent, and final impenitence can never be forgiven because the unrepentant refuse forgiveness. It doesn’t matter if the sin is fornication, murder, theft, or deliberately missing Mass.

St. Francis de Sales and St. Alphonsus both praised the mother of St. Louis (can’t remember which St. Louis) who had this exact attitude about him, for this exact reason. She would often tell him this, and so he always had the fear of God in him, which is probably how he became a saint.

 

[at9009]

It’s more the thought of living a lie that bothers me I think. If you knew to never expect eros then maybe you would feel differently. It’s hard to know how I would feel about arranged marriage as it’s not really part of my culture.

I think rather than marry someone in those circumstances I would prefer to support them as a friend, I did once know someone with a “platonic boyfriend”, they were both discerning celibate vocations and supporting each other.

To be fair there are examples of mixed orientation marriage and though it is a complicated area, it does show that for some gay/ssa people, marriage to the opposite sex can be part of their vocation (I would wager it is the minority in that case, but still something to discern). I would also recommend lots of open and honest communication really really early. For me, it simply isn’t a possibility and to force a vocation of marriage would be ultimately selfish and unfair to the woman but that isn’t always the case.

Here are some short article interviews about couples in a mixed orientation marriage.
spiritualfriendship.org/2015/02/03/a-simple-reason-to-get-married-we-were-in-love/
spiritualfriendship.org/2015/02/10/brian-what-makes-you-tick/
spiritualfriendship.org/2015/01/26/wait-a-minute-a-mixed-what/
spiritualfriendship.org/2013/09/24/orientation-change-vs-mixed-orientation-marriage/
spiritualfriendship.org/2013/10/04/further-considerations-on-marriage/

 

[at9009]

Gay is defined as suffering from the hell-born affliction of being cursed with that sexual disorder. Sodomite is someone who gives into this most heinous and disgusting sin. Sodomites need to go to confession and repent their horrible, hateful sin. Gays have not necessarily sinned, so confession may not be necessary. They should reject all disordered thoughts immediately and pray constantly for healing. If they don’t do either then I believe they are guilty of sin, possibly mortal sin depending on how greatly they consented to these intrinsically disordered thoughts. If they don’t believe God can heal them, they are guilty of the mortal sin of despair.

You have a lot of faulty perspective here. Yes, God can heal someone, but often He chooses to allow a thorn in a person’s side.

I also think you have a faulty definition of healing. This should add perspective.

One reason for this, I think, is that many Christians thought of marriage as an expression of divine healing, while celibacy was seen as merely settling for a fallen condition.

This is a serious mistake.

Celibacy is a high and difficult calling, and to live it well requires deep inner transformation. Spiritual friendship, too, requires an inner transformation that purifies the heart.

To pray for healing and to pray for orientation change are not identical. Paul says that though some of the Corinthians had engaged in various forms of sin, including homosexual activity, they were washed, sanctified, and justified. Some have used this as proof that God promises orientation change. But in the very next chapter, he praises celibacy as a higher calling—a better way of serving Christ—than marriage. If we are to “earnestly desire the higher gifts,” and to pray boldly for them, then there surely is nothing amiss if we pray boldly for this gift.

To live celibacy well requires in some ways a deeper healing, and a more dramatic inner transformation than opposite sex marriage would require. Although our pursuit of chastity—whether in marriage or in single life—begins with difficult self-denial, and often involves ongoing seasons of deep struggle, we shouldn’t think of celibacy primarily as a “booby prize”: the consolation given to the losers whose prayers for “healing” (understood solely in terms of orientation change) go unanswered. Nor should we view the sometimes gradual but resolute approach to Christian perfection in the life of those whose orientation has not changed as evidence that God has not healed. To do so involves a radical misunderstanding of vocation and of the work of the Holy Spirit.

Just because a cross persists does not equal mortal sin. Your suggest otherwise violates Catholic teaching and you are not in line with the church.

 

[at9009]

You know, I was gonna respond to this and other posts of yours here. Instead I’m gonna take the advice of several people on here including a priest to use the ignore function. Farewell. And I hope you never have children.

A smart move, sometimes it’s best to avoid situations where little good can come out of it. These forums can be incredibly discouraging, but the important thing to know that there are good people within the Church, many well-intentioned people, and support that can be found to live out a God-affirming live that is in line with Catholic teaching while dealing with this particular cross. Feel free to PM whenever if you need to talk

 

[mathematoons]

I think this hyperfocus on romance while ignoring friendship is why some gay people are clamoring for marriage.

In today’s society, people think that a romantic relationship with someone of the opposite or the same sex is the only way people find relief from loneliness.

It is only eros that counts, while philos,storge and agape are ignored.

I’m not so sure this is false. Friends dump us when they get into relationships; family members of similar age do the same; parents grow old; dogs die; children grow up to start their own families. I learned the hard way that the only two options in our society are: 1) get with the program, or 2) get used to a life of loneliness. (Priests and religious are a separate category.)

It’s actually quite a logical system, as it encourages us to start families while we still can.

 

[StudentMI]

I would say this about any mortal sin, not just sodomy (though sexual sins are more tempting when the culture encourages them). Anyone who dies in a state of grace will go to Heaven. Someone who commits a mortal sin can easily find that they like the sin too much to even want to repent, and final impenitence can never be forgiven because the unrepentant refuse forgiveness. It doesn’t matter if the sin is fornication, murder, theft, or deliberately missing Mass.

St. Francis de Sales and St. Alphonsus both praised the mother of St. Louis (can’t remember which St. Louis) who had this exact attitude about him, for this exact reason. She would often tell him this, and so he always had the fear of God in him, which is probably how he became a saint.

Do you have kids? The idea that you’d rather they die in a fire than commit a mortal sin (which can be repented) is frankly morbid and distressing. I doubt any priest would endorse such an attitude.

 

[StudentMI]

I’m not so sure this is false. Friends dump us when they get into relationships; family members of similar age do the same; parents grow old; dogs die; children grow up to start their own families. I learned the hard way that the only two options in our society are: 1) get with the program, or 2) get used to a life of loneliness. (Priests and religious are a separate category.)

It’s actually quite a logical system, as it encourages us to start families while we still can.

What a distinctly worldly attitude. Priests and religious are the exception, the rest of us are breeders? Thank God I’ve encountered beautiful spiritual writing by theologians and mystics that say the exact opposite of what you are saying

 

[at9009]

I’m not so sure this is false. Friends dump us when they get into relationships; family members of similar age do the same; parents grow old; dogs die; children grow up to start their own families. I learned the hard way that the only two options in our society are: 1) get with the program, or 2) get used to a life of loneliness. (Priests and religious are a separate category.)

It’s actually quite a logical system, as it encourages us to start families while we still can.

I think this is a gross simplication of life. It also completely devalues friendship. Not everyone is called to marriage and some of those people aren’t called to religious life. Some due to circumstances are pushed into an unchosen celibacy. Does it mean they are alone and without love. Current culture says YES but that should be a resounding NO.

I have referenced this article before but I think this gives one clear example of counter culture in a good way: washingtonpost.com/local/they-met-in-a-1960s-group-house-nearly-50-years-later-theyre-still-roommates/2016/01/29/3ef27e30-a5de-11e5-b53d-972e2751f433_story.html?utm_term=.490225639aba

 

[mathematoons]

Do you have kids? The idea that you’d rather they die in a fire than commit a mortal sin (which can be repented) is frankly morbid and distressing. I doubt any priest would endorse such an attitude.

St. Francis de Sales and St. Alphonsus were both priests. What kind of irresponsible parent would rather their kids go to Hell after a long life than go to Heaven after a short life? I would rather die in a fire than commit a mortal sin, and since good parents love their children more than themselves, you do the math.

Sin can be repented, but it often is not. True, God will forgive any sin if the person repents. But as St. Augustine said, “He who has promised pardon to penitents has promised the grace of repentance to no one.” If you’re in a dark cave and turn off your flashlight and throw it away, there is a very real possibility that you may never find light again, and you could starve to death in the cave. It’s the same with mortal sin.

Anti-faith comments like yours seriously tempt me to make uncharitable remarks, so in the interest of avoiding sin, I’m out of this thread.

 

[StudentMI]

St. Francis de Sales and St. Alphonsus were both priests. What kind of irresponsible parent would rather their kids go to Hell after a long life than go to Heaven after a short life? I would rather die in a fire than commit a mortal sin, and since good parents love their children more than themselves, you do the math.

Sin can be repented, but it often is not. True, God will forgive any sin if the person repents. But as St. Augustine said, “He who has promised pardon to penitents has promised the grace of repentance to no one.” If you’re in a dark cave and turn off your flashlight and throw it away, there is a very real possibility that you may never find light again, and you could starve to death in the cave. It’s the same with mortal sin.

Anti-faith comments like yours seriously tempt me to make uncharitable remarks, so in the interest of avoiding sin, I’m out of this thread.

I’ll take that as you not having kids which explains a lot. For perspective, my grandmother burned to death in a house fire. The smoke inhalation didn’t get here. She burned to death. My uncle had to ‘ID’ her body. So yeah.

And anti-faith? Shame on you. Seriously, shame on you. You’re on ignore now.

 

[Peter_J]

Nothing is impossible with God.

Mainstream “Catholicism”? No. My words are, thankfully, not in line with that. Traditional Catholic understanding? Absolutely.

Sexual temptation and lust are afflictions to which all men and women must to some degree bear and resist. Homosexual “lusts” are a particularly dangerous affliction because they are intrinsically disordered (wrong in all cases) and are commonly accepted and/or endorsed by the “Christian” and secular world. Sodomy is a mortal sin and is one of the absolute worst ones. It demands retribution from God and for this sin He destroyed cities and slew many thousands. It is probably the most dangerous sin right now, because of how prevalent it is and because weak-willed and cowardly voices within our own communities (who should all have been cast out a long time ago) have been silent on it or even (and this should carry a death sentence) publicly endorsed it.

I would rather learn my child had been burnt alive in a fire than learn they had engaged in this sin.

This is the first time that I’ve heard someone say something like that about their children, but I have indirectly heard of parents making such comments. (None of them were Catholic as far as I can recall.)

I’ll be interested to see if there’s an outcry on this forum against your statement. (I’m used to some pretty awful statements on basically every forum I’ve ever been on, but you have to draw the line somewhere.)

 

[ConfusedLucy]

Nothing is impossible with God.

Mainstream “Catholicism”? No. My words are, thankfully, not in line with that. Traditional Catholic understanding? Absolutely.

Sexual temptation and lust are afflictions to which all men and women must to some degree bear and resist. Homosexual “lusts” are a particularly dangerous affliction because they are intrinsically disordered (wrong in all cases) and are commonly accepted and/or endorsed by the “Christian” and secular world. Sodomy is a mortal sin and is one of the absolute worst ones. It demands retribution from God and for this sin He destroyed cities and slew many thousands. It is probably the most dangerous sin right now, because of how prevalent it is and because weak-willed and cowardly voices within our own communities (who should all have been cast out a long time ago) have been silent on it or even (and this should carry a death sentence) publicly endorsed it.

I would rather learn my child had been burnt alive in a fire than learn they had engaged in this sin.

Having read some very upsetting accounts of final phone calls from relatives of the recent Grenfell victims I find your last comment pretty depressing.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

To be fair there are examples of mixed orientation marriage and though it is a complicated area, it does show that for some gay/ssa people, marriage to the opposite sex can be part of their vocation (I would wager it is the minority in that case, but still something to discern). I would also recommend lots of open and honest communication really really early. For me, it simply isn’t a possibility and to force a vocation of marriage would be ultimately selfish and unfair to the woman but that isn’t always the case.

Here are some short article interviews about couples in a mixed orientation marriage.
spiritualfriendship.org/2015/02/03/a-simple-reason-to-get-married-we-were-in-love/
spiritualfriendship.org/2015/02/10/brian-what-makes-you-tick/
spiritualfriendship.org/2015/01/26/wait-a-minute-a-mixed-what/
spiritualfriendship.org/2013/09/24/orientation-change-vs-mixed-orientation-marriage/
spiritualfriendship.org/2013/10/04/further-considerations-on-marriage/

That made for some interesting reading and I think it confirmed my gut feeling that it could only ever work with honesty and a lot of communication. Denying your sexuality and not disclosing it would be a bad idea and potentially grounds for anulling the marriage. I wonder if such a marriage would work better between two ssa people of opposite sex

Marriage is a strange one in that we know that the traditions around marriage have varied widely over time and geographically and will probably continue to vary and yet we see our own marriage traditions as “the norm” and everything else seems weird . I try to keep a bit of an open mind.

 

[Peter_J]

Having read some very upsetting accounts of final phone calls from relatives of the recent Grenfell victims I find your last comment pretty depressing.

The thing about the post you quoted, including the last sentence, is that it’s so extreme that it can make other extreme posters (e.g. people who believe that gay sex should only be punished with jail time, or even who believe that coming out of the closet should be illegal) look reasonable by comparison.

It’s like Karl Keating wrote,

“The public is always willing to accept someone or some organization that appeals to its unrespectable prejudices if it can, at the same time, reject propagandists at the fringe.”

• from “At The Fringe” – Ch 8 in the book “Catholicism and Fundamentalism”, see here.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

The thing about the post you quoted, including the last sentence, is that it’s so extreme that it can make other extreme posters (e.g. people who believe that gay sex should only be punished with jail time, or even who believe that coming out of the closet should be illegal) look reasonable by comparison.

It’s like Karl Keating wrote,

“The public is always willing to accept someone or some organization that appeals to its unrespectable prejudices if it can, at the same time, reject propagandists at the fringe.”

• from “At The Fringe” – Ch 8 in the book “Catholicism and Fundamentalism”, see here.

Although “I’d rather see my child dead than commit this sin” is fairly extreme, especially as it seems to assume that particular sin can never be repented of or forgiven, I can imagine most people who aren’t calling it out aren’t okay with the statement, they just find it so extreme that they don’t see any point in rebutting it. Indeed, you could argue that by even engaging in the argument you are validating it as worthy of debate and consideration.

Much as people don’t usually bother to correct statements such as “the Pope is obviously a heretic, he might even be the Antichrist” or “there is a Great Apostasy coming and only a remnant of true Christian Catholics will be left” or “If your children come out to you as gay, you should beat them”. These are all sentiments I have had the misfortune of finding on CAF. Most people who state such things, if they are even sincere and not trolling, are not going to be moved by rational discussion to reconsider their views.

 

[StudentMI]

Although “I’d rather see my child dead than commit this sin” is fairly extreme, especially as it seems to assume that particular sin can never be repented of or forgiven, I can imagine most people who aren’t calling it out aren’t okay with the statement, they just find it so extreme that they don’t see any point in rebutting it. Indeed, you could argue that by even engaging in the argument you are validating it as worthy of debate and consideration.

Much as people don’t usually bother to correct statements such as “the Pope is obviously a heretic, he might even be the Antichrist” or “there is a Great Apostasy coming and only a remnant of true Christian Catholics will be left” or “If your children come out to you as gay, you should beat them”. These are all sentiments I have had the misfortune of finding on CAF. Most people who state such things, if they are even sincere and not trolling, are not going to be moved by rational discussion to reconsider their views.

On the eighth day God invented the ignore function.

 

[mVitus]

On the eighth day God invented the ignore function.

I couldn’t find that in my Bible…

 

[mathematoons]

I’ll take that as you not having kids which explains a lot. For perspective, my grandmother burned to death in a house fire. The smoke inhalation didn’t get here. She burned to death. My uncle had to ‘ID’ her body. So yeah.

And anti-faith? Shame on you. Seriously, shame on you. You’re on ignore now.

I decided to come back and check on this thread… you may have me on ignore, but this is for the benefit of others.

I didn’t know about your grandmother, so I didn’t know it would hit a nerve. I apologize for hurting your feelings like that.

However, I will not apologize for speaking the truth. My attitude is in line with the Doctors of the Church, and even with Jesus: “It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire.” (Matthew 18:8.) Your issue is not with me, but with Him. I stand by my calling a spade a spade; to disagree with this is to deny what Hell is.

It’s not because I don’t have kids. I feel that way about my parents. My father has left the faith and is not long for this earth; if he went through a painful death and I learned (somehow) that it gave him the grace to repent at the last moment of life, I would rejoice. I have told my mother that I don’t ever want her to deny Jesus for ANY reason, not even for me. If my dog were human, I would feel the same way about him too. I would rather be with my family in Heaven than have them x years longer on earth and spare them y minutes of suffering. It is because I love them so much that I would be happy for them to go through a little earthly fire rather than suffer an eternity of Hell-fire. Does no one understand that?

 

[Dorothy]

I decided to come back and check on this thread… you may have me on ignore, but this is for the benefit of others.

I didn’t know about your grandmother, so I didn’t know it would hit a nerve. I apologize for hurting your feelings like that.

However, I will not apologize for speaking the truth. My attitude is in line with the Doctors of the Church, and even with Jesus: “It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire.” (Matthew 18:8.) Your issue is not with me, but with Him. I stand by my calling a spade a spade; to disagree with this is to deny what Hell is.

It’s not because I don’t have kids. I feel that way about my parents. My father has left the faith and is not long for this earth; if he went through a painful death and I learned (somehow) that it gave him the grace to repent at the last moment of life, I would rejoice. I have told my mother that I don’t ever want her to deny Jesus for ANY reason, not even for me. If my dog were human, I would feel the same way about him too. I would rather be with my family in Heaven than have them x years longer on earth and spare them y minutes of suffering. It is because I love them so much that I would be happy for them to go through a little earthly fire rather than suffer an eternity of Hell-fire. Does no one understand that?

Thank you for your post!