are girls not important?

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Another question is maybe Christ chose men because of the times he lived in - I mean, they didn’t hold women in such high regard then (not talking Christ here, but society as a whole). Things were different then. Maybe if it was in this day and age instead of 2,000 years ago maybe it would have been done differently. But I guess that is just speculation.
Well, think about. They were all upset that Christ chose to consort with sinners. So I don’t think He was worried about public relations.

I really don’t think Christ would do that differently today. And I think the proof is that His Church has not done so, amidst pressure from so many liberals and modernists.
 
And Magnum, I’m not perfectly clear on the situation in your parish, but in my experience as a female altar server, there are simply more girls willing to assist during mass than there are boys. Not to mention that there were multiple weekends when my sisters and I served in the place of others who didn’t show up. It’s not as if the priest favored us over the male servers, but it was just that he knew we would be willing to serve whenever asked.
You’re point is well taken. And, yes, there are many more young girls in our parish who are willing to serve. Actually, there are more young girls in our parish than even young boys. I know it may ruffle some feathers, but I think if there are males willing, they should be given the opportunity more often, because I do believe it is a role primarily for men. Sorry, ladies. Now go make me a sandwich. :rotfl: (I couldn’t resist. Now I just wish CAF had a caveman smiley.)
 
No fair! 😦

No one has to be ordained to serve on the Altar. That’s truly not the point that any one was making!!

There are roles for girls. What roles does your parish have for girls while the boys have the role of Altar Server?

What do we have for our kids to do in church during mass, that will help to keep their attention and encourage them to grow in their faith to help them to be Better Catholics when they grow up?
I personally do not care for female Altar Servers. We have them in my parish, and they do a great job, but I wish that there was something else for them to do. I would never say to one of them, ‘you shouldn’t be filling that role’, either. It’s just my opinion. The Bishop said it was ok, so as far as I’m concerned, the ‘if’ question is over in our diocese.

But if the girls aren’t serving as Altar Servers, what do we have them to do? As adults, we participate, but for children, it’s very easy to be distracted:(
While no one needs to be ordained in order to serve at the altar, one must be ordained in order to be a Eucharistic Minister. That is what Cristiano meant by his comment. The ordinary ministers of the Eucharist are bishops and priests because only they, by virtue of their ministerial priesthood, can confect the Eucharist. Now, only those who are ordained are the ordinary ministers of Holy Communion. This includes bishops, priests and deacons. The difference here is that the deacon does not confect the Eucharist.

As laity, we can be commissioned Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion; however, our service is limited to the point that we are only used if a dire need exists. However, if there are several priests concelebrating at Mass, then, there is no need for us to be used.

I highlighted this particular aspect of your post because it reflects a very dismal and prevailing view of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that has permeated throughout the Church over the course of 40 years. . Catechesis begins at the home. If parents don’t view the Mass as something that will keep their own attention, how do they expect to instill this in their children? The Mass is what we put into it. Liturgy is the work of the people. Just because I am not proclaiming the readings or serving as an EMHC that is not to say that I’m not “doing” something. I am praying. I am listening to the word of God being proclaimed. I am uniting my poor and humble sacrifice to that of Christ’s. I am receiving His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in Holy Communion.

We do not go to Mass to be entertained or to have something “to do”. We are there to adore God.
 
Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are only suppose to be used in dire need yes, but that doesn’t just include when there aren’t multiple priest saying mass. Technically any priests/deacons in the area are suppose to help out in this task. It is one of my pet peeves that this is so widely abused.
Second, when I was young, the boys were still the only allowed “servers” in mass. There was never EVER a shortage of interested parties. It was only AFTER they started allowing anyone to serve that the boys seemed to loose interest. I think that is the inherent problem with allowing girls. I’m not saying the girls def shouldn’t be allowed, but I think it is something to really consider as I know 2 different guys who entered the seminary and they first heard their calling that way while serving mass. Unfortunately, they moved to another diocese and I don’t know if they ever became priest or not.

Pinkyyy, please do not demean my role in the mass. As a father of 6 girls, I really have to stay with them and keep an eye on them while participating in mass. I’m not next to the altar, but for the 3-4 times a week when we get to go to mass, I AM participating in the Divine Liturgy of the Mass. Remember “the same as” isn’t the same as “equal to”. We all have equal dignity, that doesn’t mean we have to be “the same”.

Thanks and God bless
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Another question is maybe Christ chose men because of the times he lived in - I mean, they didn’t hold women in such high regard then (not talking Christ here, but society as a whole). Things were different then. Maybe if it was in this day and age instead of 2,000 years ago maybe it would have been done differently. But I guess that is just speculation.
:eek: Are you saying that Jesus Christ did not ordain women to the priesthood just because it was not a popular idea at the time? You do realize that He is the Second Person of the Trinity, right?

If He had wanted to do so, He could have become incarnate as a woman, or even as an intersexual, but He did not do so; instead He became a man. A priest is an Alter Christus, literally, another Christ. Christ acts through him when he administers the sacraments. Having a woman be another Christ does not make sense, as Christ was a man.
 
While no one needs to be ordained in order to serve at the altar, one must be ordained in order to be a Eucharistic Minister. That is what Cristiano meant by his comment. The ordinary ministers of the Eucharist are bishops and priests because only they, by virtue of their ministerial priesthood, can confect the Eucharist. Now, only those who are ordained are the ordinary ministers of Holy Communion. This includes bishops, priests and deacons. The difference here is that the deacon does not confect the Eucharist.

As laity, we can be commissioned Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion; however, our service is limited to the point that we are only used if a dire need exists. However, if there are several priests concelebrating at Mass, then, there is no need for us to be used.
Thanks. I was a bit confused there. Did they used to call laity Eucharistic ministers?

Cristiano Quote:
I am Mercygate altar ego. Or is it alter ego???

😛
 
:eek: Are you saying that Jesus Christ did not ordain women to the priesthood just because it was not a popular idea at the time? You do realize that He is the Second Person of the Trinity, right?

If He had wanted to do so, He could have become incarnate as a woman, or even as an intersexual, but He did not do so; instead He became a man. A priest is an Alter Christus, literally, another Christ. Christ acts through him when he administers the sacraments. Having a woman be another Christ does not make sense, as Christ was a man.
I’ve thought about this too. I think women should take heart. After all, supposedly more women will get into heaven than men. 😉 Anyway, we do know God created men and women differently. I believe that He just wants women in different roles. If God sees men as the head of their families, I think it makes sense that those He chooses to head the Church are also men.

Women have such great power to influence their children…the future of the world. (You know the hand that rocks the cradle…) We also have a more delicate nature to bring gentleness to the lives of men. And stuff like that.👍

Now where did my kids go???😃
 
Pinkyyy, please do not demean my role in the mass. As a father of 6 girls, I really have to stay with them and keep an eye on them while participating in mass. I’m not next to the altar, but for the 3-4 times a week when we get to go to mass, I AM participating in the Divine Liturgy of the Mass. Remember “the same as” isn’t the same as “equal to”. We all have equal dignity, that doesn’t mean we have to be “the same”.

Thanks and God bless
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👍
Urban, I am not trying to demean your role - sorry if it came across as that. I am not trying to complain. I am trying to understand why some believe girls should not be altar girls, or have the same chance. Men have priesthood and they are able to be deacons. I feel any child that wants to be should be allowed to be a altAr girl 😃 if they want. Women have callings too - to be nuns. Think for a moment if a young girl wanted to be an altar girl, but was refused because there were more boys that wanted to do it and she did not fulfill her potential by serving God like she may have had she been allowed to be an altar girl. Maybe because she could not participate, she did not become a nun. how sad would that be. If it is thought that boys participating through being altar boys can bring them closer to the priesthood, then why can’t young girls participate to bring them closer to serving God by becoming nuns after hearing the calling when they were altar girls? Nuns are important too, not only priests and deacons.

I am not saying girls should be “the same”. They can’t be priests or deacons. Why not let them participate as an altar girl then? They can still serve the Lord and I think they should be given the opportunity - this is JMO.
 
At our parish the altar servers are both boys and girls. Some times a brother and sister serve Mass together. It has worked out quite well.
 
I haven’t read the thread and am in a hurry, but from the title and OP I thought this might be helpful: ewtn.com/library/PRIESTS/ZWOMORD.HTM

I’ve never read the interview format but I have read Ms. Ferrara’s chapter, and the thing that struck me about her conversion story is not, as the page title says, that she “debunks” women’s ordination, but that she talks about how the Catholic Church, in which she cannot be an ordained minister, is more feminine or woman-friendly than the Lutheran church in which she had been an active minister.

The moral of the story is that you can’t gauge a group’s “importance” based solely on who gets to “play a part” in the sanctuary. If you simply step back and think about Catholic culture you can see how “female dominated,” so-to-speak, the Church really is:
Who typically teaches a child his/her prayers and faith knowledge? - the mother
Who make up the vast majority of Catholic school teachers? - females
Who make up the firm majority of Mass attendees? - females
Who tend to make up a majority of EMHCs? - females
Who tend to be more involved in parish life/organizations? - females
Who make up the majority of CCD/religious ed teachers? - females
… and I’m sure others could think of more categories. The funny thing is, though, that none of those things say anything to us about women’s “importance,” either, as if they portray some sort of ontological claim on the part of the Church. They just show that women hold far more pivotal a place in Catholic life than is often let on.
 
Thanks. I was a bit confused there. Did they used to call laity Eucharistic ministers?

Cristiano Quote:
I am Mercygate altar ego. Or is it alter ego???

😛
In a previous document they may have been referred to as such; however, Redemptionis Sacramentum refers to those laity who are commissioned to perform this duty as Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion.

One thing that we may have collectively forgotten: the greatest woman in the history of the Church never saw her role as diminished or demeaned. The Blessed Virgin Mary was content to stay in the sidelines. In fact, her last words in the Bible, as recorded in St. John’s Gospel were “Do whatever He tells you.”

Mary certainly rejoiced in God, her Savior and her soul certainly magnified her Lord. She had the greatest task of all: to teach the Son of God, who was also her Son, how to walk, talk, and be human. So, ask yourself this question. If you don’t think girls are important, then you must not understand the role of woman in the life of the Church as evidenced by the Blessed Mother, herself, she, who is the example of woman, par excellence.
 
IMO, catholacism is shunning girls who may develop a more fuller and rich relationship with Christ but didn’t because they were “left out” and weren’t as important as the boys in their parishes. Can’t even be alter girls?

I just don’t get it. And is there a real reason or is it just because they say it’s that way and because (some) men don’t like it?
Pinkyyy this topic has been debated in numerous threads and every single one of those threads has gotten hostile. I had a lot of problems dealing with the place of women. Reading the old testament made me think that God Himself despised women and wanted them as second class citizens so to speak. I was very angry anytime I tried to read the first few books about how a woman was unclean etc. Then I read the new testament and saw how Jesus washed away all sin (including that of Eve) so there was no point in saying women were below men ever. There is reasoning behind the limited role of women in the church based on the apostles being men etc. But we do have our role! Women have gifts that men do not! The ability to be a mother, to be nurturing, compassionate, feminine.(i’m not saying that men aren’t compassionate or nurturing) Took me a while to realize that being a female in the Christian faith and in the world in general wasn’t a bad thing. Now there are certain men out there who do continue to follow the old testament belief that women should not have roles b/c they are second rate. Should not be allowed to speak, should obey their husbands, not hold jobs, etc. Fortunately they are a minority. I’m afraid though, that this debate will never end.

Serve Jesus in your own way with the gifts God gave you. He loves you no matter what and so I don’t think it matters what men and women say here, just Him

sorry for the long post
 
Yes, girls are very important. But generally girls have superior spiritual qualities over boys. They are very adept at praying and entering into a closer union with God from a young age since their orientation is naturally more ‘other-centered’. Boys are more easily distracted and have a great temptation to be more preoccupied with all their toys, rather than with people or God.

Altar serving, besides assisting the priest, is getting to know how the Sacrifice of the Mass is offered up close and being very proximate to Our Lord and even protecting Him with the help of a paten among other things. For this reason boys should be up there since they have to have direct contact in order to stay focused better during Mass at a young age. And boys need all kinds of direct prompts and habitual, structured spiritual activities in order for them to be virtuous, much less to consider priesthood or the religious life.
Girls are so intuitive that they easily put two and two together about the spiritual life (that is with good education and formation). They fly so to speak, whereas the boys trudge along and oftentimes stop in order to pursue their toys or entertainments.
So out of charity for these young boys who may otherwise quickly lose interest in the spiritual life and the attainment of heaven, please don’t let your daughters serve!

Yes, it is allowed, but a pastor may decide not to have any altar girls. When Pope John Paul II permitted them, I realized that my adulation of him had been misplaced and that I must only trust and adore Jesus because every man will at one time or another disappoint and be imperfect.
Also, altar girls were never allowed in the hundreds of years since their first use until 1992. It is a definite break with tradition. In the extraordinary rite, altar girls are not allowed.

I have lived with 8 men for many years and at present with 6, so I know what I am talking about from observation and interaction with them.
 
I also might add that the Church considers the vocation of cloistered men and women to be the superior to any other vocation, including that of the priesthood.
They are the spiritual lungs or heart of the Church militant. Without their round the clock prayers of supplication to God the world would be much darker than it is. So St. Therese of the Child Jesus and such cloistered nuns have had a vital and irreplaceable part in the Church’s life. It is a quiet and humble part in the eyes of the world and very much like that of the Blessed Mother who modeled this for us all.

The active sisters also have quite a bit of influence. When sister asks you to do something, you do it. They are our mothers and we wouldn’t think of disobeying them! A mother superior and her sisters decided what we should name our youngest son. After hearing their suggestion, we thought it was indeed the right name!
 
Altar girls have been around for sometime, as has been pointed out already. But it was no mean feat to get them up there in the first place. Being an “altar server” as it is now called, has an older name, “acolyte” which was one of the “lesser orders” that men passed through on their way to priesthood.

The seven main orders, as I recall, were: doorkeeper, reader, exorcist, acolyte, subdeacon, deacon, and priest. There is more to this but I’m summing up. The major seminary in Mundelein Illinois, St. Mary of the Lake, had the words inscribed on actual steps leading up the altar of their main chapel (it’s been years since I’ve been there). So you see, that “acolyte” is a higher order than “reader;” both of them lesser orders on the way to priesthood. Being an altar boy was more than just an attempt to “spark interest.” And no one even questions letting women read at mass anymore.

I’d like to point out that this question “are girls not important?” is a logical fallacy: “ad misericordium” an appeal to pity. Seriously, it is devisive to use such language, but I don’t blame you. I’m reading a lot of posts on this website in general and I am floored by the amount of logical fallacies used in argumentation. Simply floored.
I also might add that the Church considers the vocation of cloistered men and women to be the superior to any other vocation, including that of the priesthood.
This is not true. Cloistered men and women are vital to the church, but the priest is the true arbitur, in persona christi in the sacraments. Different roles, but the sacramental role that priests play is the Church’s center of gravity, with monks and nuns and the rest of us in orbit.
 
Part 1

This is a complex topic, it deals with people’s thoughts and emotions, and it can seem that someone is left out of a ministry on the sole basis of their gender which seems horribly unfair in our egalitarian society. Reading the replies on this Forum has caused me to consider why I hold to the position I do on this point. To lay it out might requires some room and I hope it makes sense beyond my own mind.

The Church always proposes an ideal for her clergy and laity to follow, and we do our best with the resources and mean at our disposal to live up to that ideal.

In the liturgy the Church tells us that the ideal celebration of the Eucharist is the Stational Mass (also know as a Solemn Pontifical Mass). At this Mass the Bishop, concelebrating with his Priests, with Deacons taking their roll of assisting the Bishop, instituted Acolytes assisting at the altar, instituted Lectors proclaiming the Word of God, and the lay faithful assisting at Mass with their presence, their attentiveness, their assent, their voices raised in song, shows forth in the fullest way possible to true worship of the Church; the sacred ministers representing Christ the Head and the members of the faithful representing Christ the Body intimately joined in offering worship to the Father. This is the closest thing on Earth to the sacred liturgy of heaven. And it is a sight to behold.

The Bishop cannot be physically present in every celebration of the Eucharist in the Church entrusted to his care, so he is associated with priests, who share the same priesthood with him, to be the presence of Christ the Head to the various communities of his flock. The Stational Mass is to be a model the Parishes follow, as best as they are able. I think of some suburban parishes where ministries and finances are available to make the celebration of the Eucharist wonderful, it is as close as you can get to a Stational Mass without actually being on. And then there are the rural mission, where Mass is celebrated very humbly. It seems a far cry from the Stational Mass at the Cathedral, but it is the best that this community can offer, its not second rate.

Now the Church has historically limited serving in the sanctuary to men. Keep in mind that there are layers of tradition and practice at work here.

In the earlier days of the Church there weren’t seminaries as there are now. Essentially you apprenticed for the priesthood, under the supervision of the Bishop. You worked through the various ministries demonstrating that you were competent in each; success in all being necessary to be a priest. These were all limited to men because the Church has always understood itself bound by the command of Christ that sacred orders can only be conferred on men. Both Paul VI and John Paul II have clearly stated this, and so I don’t think it is necessary to explore it further.

You started out with the Ministry of Porter, the care of the church building, as well as the ringing of the bells. Not everyone had clocks, this was important for telling time. Then the Ministry of Lector, not everyone was literate, so the talk of proclaiming the Word of God was entrusted to someone who could read. Next came the Ministry of Exorcist; that is care of the sick. The ancient understanding of sickness was very different from today, often sickness was seen to be the work of the devil, so assisting the sick meant praying for deliverance. The final minor order was Acolyte, responsible for lighting the candles. There was no electricity in ancient times so candles were needed to provide light, the acolyte was responsible for this, as well as assisting at the altar. From there you went through the major orders of subdeacon and deacon. At the celebration of Mass these orders of men preparing for the priesthood would exercise their roles. Often some would not continue on but would continue to fulfill their ministry in the order they received. So historically there has been this connection between men who serve in the sanctuary and those preparing for the priesthood. Today we try to preserve this analogy by saying that it can encourage vocations to the priesthood, but let us not use that as our only or main argument as it runs pretty thin today.

Today the process of preparing for the priesthood it very different from the days of the early Church. We apply our modern methods in seminaries to train priests and it works fairly well. Yet we still have the ministries from earlier centuries around. After the Second Vatican Council the Church attempted to address that discontinuity that apparently existed in the Minor Order and those who actually exercise them. Thus the suppression of tonsure and porter and exorcist. Tonsure has been replaced with Candidacy and entrance into the clergy is joined to the diaconate. The Ministry of Porter is usually filled by sacristans and janitors. A more modern understanding of sickness and demonology reserved exorcisms to priests. Lector has been preserved, and Acolyte and Subdeacon have been joined together in the Ministry of Acolyte. No longer are they to be called orders, but they are called Ministries, and no longer are they reserved to those preparing for the priesthood. At the same time, preserving the custom of millennia allowing only men to serve in the sanctuary, the Ministries are reserved to men. Interestingly, the modifications did nothing to really change the existing practices. The ministries are usually bestowed on men preparing for the priesthood and diaconate. There are various arguments for the reasons why.
 
Part 2

When the Church began to grow and parishes existed in places further and further from the cathedral, it became impossible for only those preparing for the priesthood to minister at the altar. More people were needed. A practical solution was to call men of good virtue to exercise them on a temporary or extraordinary basis. This was soon extended to young boy as well. The reason for the use of a cassock and surplice, garments of the clergy, by altar servers was an outgrowth of this. If you exercised that ministry, you wore what those of that ministry wore. Thus a priest in the EF wears a dalmatic where serving in the role of deacon.

This all goes back to the difference between the Order of Grace and the Order of Nature, and God respects both since he instituted both. In the Order of Grace, all people are sinners and are in need of redemption. No one is exempted, even the Blessed Virgin Mary was by a singular grace preserved from the effects of original sin at her conception through anticipation of the grace wrought by Christ on the Cross. It is the Order of Grace that St. Paul speaks of in his letter to the Galatians when he speaks of, in Christ there is no longer slave or free, Jew or Gentile, man or woman. Yet with the Order of Grace, the Order of Nature remains. It goes back to creation, God created them male and female, each reflecting part of his richness, bestowing on each the commonality of being a member of the human race, but also bestowing on each unique gifts and attributes. These distinctions are not man-made but God-made. In our modern society we sometimes fail to distinguish between the two, especially in our push for greater equality. Baptism is totally dependent on the Order of Grace, anyone can be baptized. In addition to being part of the Order of Grace, God chose that the Sacrament of Orders would derive its Matter from the Order of Nature, that only men can be ordained. We can debate this to the end of the age, but what God has ordained in his infinite Providence we are not free to alter.

The chaos in the liturgy following the Second Vatican Council is well documented, attempts to correct abuses often failed, sometimes the abuses became so prevalent it seemed almost impossible to correct. It seems in these cases, the Vatican began to allow the practice instead of condemning it, two being Communion in the hand and the other women and girls serving in the sanctuary. As early as the 1970s I’ve seen pictures where girls are serving at the altar. It is interesting to see that it was only in 1994 that the Vatican permitted this, where is seemed to have become a de facto practice, this was carified in 2001 which stated a priest was not obliged to use female serves where it had been permitted.

Men serving at the altar is part of the history and tradition of the Church, its history is documented as are the reasons for it. If it goes back centuries and even millennia, is there good reason for putting all this history and tradition aside?

Pope Benedict has spoken of the hermeneutic of discontinuity in the Church since the Second Vatican Council. This is especially present in the Sacred Liturgy, but can be found in various other areas of the Church. Whatever the reason or source of the rupture, no matter how pure the motivation, it needs to be repaired. Scripture teaches that a house that is build on a solid foundation will endure, and that one built on sand will fail. That is not to say that a foundation doesn’t need to be repaired or reinforced from time to time. But the hermeneutic of discontinuity tore away the foundation of the past. Should the hermeneutic of discontinuity be preserved when it comes to who is permitted to serve at the altar?

I have heard it said, “tradition is the living faith of the dead.” Are we saying we know better than those of the past, because we are somehow more enlightened? Isn’t that one of the errors of modernism and also part of the vice of pride? It is easy to have tunnel vision, to see things in only of terms of the present. This is why the study of history is so important, for it shows that our time isn’t the only time, that there is something to be learned from the past. That is has value.

Does following the history and tradition of the Church which has roots in both the Order of Grace and the Order of Nature by reserving service in the sanctuary to men and boys somehow make girls and women less important?

If we look at it solely from our modern perspective of rights and equality, confusing the two Orders that God has established, then the answer is yes.

If we trust Jesus who instituted the priesthood and also the Church, which he promised to be guided by the Holy Spirit, then the answer is no. Those who are part of the Church can ere and have done so in the past, but is the continuous tradition of the Church in error. I don’t see that as being the case.

The title of this thread asks “Are girls not important?” My reply is, of course they are important, they are as important as boys.” Then this begs the question, “They why aren’t girls important enough to serve at the altar?” If we see serving at the altar as a form of prestige and brings us some kind of power, it will lead us to ask that kind of question. To minister at the altar is to serve, since it is so visible we have a way of equate it with importance. We need to challenge ourselves and our common conception that have been formed by the world we live in and be willing to see things from a difference perspective.

If we are to adopt the position that only men should serve in the sanctuary we encounter the difficult pastoral problem of what to do now that it is so commonplace, this would require a great deal of prayer, patience, and catechesis on the part of the Priest or Bishop who chooses to proceed with it. There is no easy solution that will not produce hurt feelings.
 
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