are girls not important?

[THurifer2]

What do we have for our kids to do in church during mass, that will help to keep their attention and encourage them to grow in their faith to help them to be Better Catholics when they grow up?

You are kidding right? What do we have? This is why I feel that Catechesis has been a complete and dismal failure the last 30+ years. Its not entertainment it is worship. Over 90% of our childrens Catechesis should take place in our homes. Saying the kids need “entertainment” is missing the Mark by a MILE

 

[snhs]

I feel any child that wants to be should be allowed to be a altAr girl if they want. Women have callings too - to be nuns. Think for a moment if a young girl wanted to be an altar girl, but was refused because there were more boys that wanted to do it and she did not fulfill her potential by serving God like she may have had she been allowed to be an altar girl. Maybe because she could not participate, she did not become a nun. how sad would that be. If it is thought that boys participating through being altar boys can bring them closer to the priesthood, then why can’t young girls participate to bring them closer to serving God by becoming nuns after hearing the calling when they were altar girls? Nuns are important too, not only priests and deacons.

I am not saying girls should be “the same”. They can’t be priests or deacons. Why not let them participate as an altar girl then? They can still serve the Lord and I think they should be given the opportunity - this is JMO.

So any child that wants to be President should be President? What if a girl who feels called to become an Altar girl also feels called to become a deacon/priest a few years down the line, should we allow them to do that as well?

If a Bishop decides to refuse a man’s application for the Seminary does that mean he is being prevented from fulfilling his potential? Or could it indicate that God is calling on him to serve in a different way by waiting till next year or maybe as a monk, a Priest in a religious order or a married father?

I think what would be really sad is if the number of Parishes without Priests increases. There is a link between Mass and Vocations, for centuries girls have not served at the Altar, has that prevented them from becoming nuns or otherwise fulfilling their potential? If the link you suggest exists then there should have been some sign of a fairly drastic rise in girls joining Convents, which has just not materialised.

Part of the reason that boys being Altar Servers has been effective in producing Vocations is that they served with a Priest who was at some point probably an Altar boy himself. If we are seeking the same effect for girls then we need Nuns. At one point many Catholic/Girls schools would have been operated by Nuns who taught the children and in doing so the girls learnt about that Vocation. For proof just look at the number of girls who go into Primary Teaching courses, partly inspired by the example of the people who taught them at Primary. Had those people been Nuns at least some of them may well have followed the same path.

If the possibility exists in Parishes today it would be a great thing for a Nun, or any doctrinally sound woman for that matter, to lead a prayer group or lead a group for young girls to learn about their faith and how to pray etc. The fact is for most Parishes that isn’t possible because Nuns aren’t there. Now a lot of people, including some on this thread, seem to suggest in the absence of a group of some sort for girls they should be allowed to do exactly the same thing as the boys. I would suggest that the opposite is true.

The fact is we get more Nuns when they experience the full power of the Mass, and that can only come about when there are enough Priests to say Masses properly and to spend time writing and giving inspiring Homilies on the power of Prayer, the Mystery of the Eucharist and the need for Vocations. If those girls are taught while sitting in the pews or the classroom of these things then many, if not most, will consider a religious vocation in the same way they consider marriage. And when those girls grow up some may become Nuns and then they can inspire the Nuns and Priests of tomorrow. The solution is right in front of us, it is in the Mass.

The need for Priests has seldom been greater so to tamper with something which has been for generations a source of Priestly Vocations is not something that makes sense to me. I strongly believe that God can overcome any obstacles we could ever put in his way, but we’re not exactly making it any easier for him to do so by reducing the numbers and frequency with which boys serve at the Altar.

Boys and girls are both important, I don’t think anyone has suggested otherwise. You’re right Nuns are important as are Priests and Deacons, but to increase the number of Vocations our focus should begin with the Mass, the Sacrifice of Our Lord, and for that we need Priests.

I think rather than looking at what to a societal view may be a matter of fairness or equality we should look at it in the long term. If you say today ‘Ok, they can’t be Priests or Deacons so why not Altar girls’ then who is to say that 100/200 years from now there won’t be a similar opinion saying ‘Ok they can’t be Priests but what about Deacons’. The slippery slope isn’t the best argument but it is worthwhile to look at what has happened to the Anglicans over the issue.

 

[lorathon]

It always seems that during these discussions the blame for everything falls on the Church. They don’t allow this, they don’t allow that. CCD is so bad no one wants to get involved… and so on. From my experience the Church is doing all it can. I think the major failure is at home. My wife and I are both involved in the Church. This model has fostered in my childern the desire to be involved. My two daughters are both altar servers (and involved in ministries). The youngest of the two could not wait to reach the requirements so that she could serve. My oldest son is now in the same boat. He complains every Sunday that he wants to serve, and I have to explain that he is not old enough (5 yr old). At the same time, I can look around and see families that are in the same Church, same Parish, childern in the same CCD, but dont get involved at all. The childern in these familes don’t want to be involved because the role model is not there. The Church hasn’t let them down. The Church can’t make people get involved.

Sorry if I high-jacked.

Back on topic - I used to not like the idea of girl altar servers, but it has grown on me.

 

[anamchara]

**ALTAR. **

A-L-T-A-R

Not “alter”. This drives me NUTS!

**If you care enough to get into a thread about it, care enough to SPELL it right./**quote]

Mercygate, for heavens sake. I’ve never seen you snap like this. We have to remember some people (including myself) are horrible spellers and even some come on here with learning disabilites. maybe a private message of correction could be better.

girls are important and I don’t have a problem with them being altER girls Jk…about the spelling.

 

[Carolinagirl411]

from a psychological/sociological point of view

What have children been told since birth…well maybe not birth but early on

That is that they can be ANYTHING they want to be if if they put their mind to it. Girls especially are encouraged this b/c previous generations have not had this capability. Regardless of the negativity attributed to feminism, without it, women would not be allowed to vote, go to school, or hold jobs…

So therefore children aspire and work hard to be what they want. Women will never be priests b/c there are rules for this and the Church will stand by them.

But I just wanted to point out the mindset of people in America today and it is only b/c of hardships experienced in the past. I don’t think it is a bad thing being female myself.

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

Part 2

Pope Benedict has spoken of the hermeneutic of discontinuity in the Church since the Second Vatican Council. This is especially present in the Sacred Liturgy, but can be found in various other areas of the Church. Whatever the reason or source of the rupture, no matter how pure the motivation, it needs to be repaired.

You are my hero, jbebeau. Thank you for helping my imperfect memory. You are a scholar. I am going to print out your reply and memorize it.

That there have been ruptures in the Church since Vatican II is no doubt. But regarding girl altar servers, and women in the sanctuary in general, could this not also be a manifestation of what the Catechism calls “Sensus Fidelium”?

67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations.”

All I’m trying to do is differentiate between the Pope’s “hermeneutic of discontinuity” and the concept of *sensus fidelium *as a living act of the Holy Spirit. Am I going too far with this? Do girl altar servers fall under this consideration? Certainly not “new revelation” but this is a period of history that is extremely conscious of the past abuses of patriarchy. And I am not advocating ordaining women by saying this. It is always the Magisterium’s final word that discerns an “authentic call of Christ or his saints” and so I wonder if girl altar servers falls under this? We have to be very very very very careful when we start swinging this particular hammer around.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

**ALTAR. **

A-L-T-A-R

Not “alter”. This drives me NUTS!

If you care enough to get into a thread about it, care enough to SPELL it right.

Yes, the other one is “alter” as in, “You need to alter your spelling of ‘altar’ to make it correct.”

 

[PetersKeys]

I think sometimes why more traditional churches only have alter men is because there might be a pretty woman who is working the altar and it might distract parishners and other laypeoples in the building. I have been to parishes where there are alot of altar women and it definatly can get distracting for a man(espesially for altar boys interested in the priesthood)) knowing how a mans conscious works

 

[Apryl]

It is quite fair to me. If any non ordained Catholic (adding Deacons too) calls him/herself an Eucharistic Minister then they should expect the joke about being ordained.

um… am I missing something here?

Because Deacons ARE ordained, y’ know.

(If a joke needs explanation, I don’t think it’s a joke any more)

 

[nightwalker]

Personally, I think that only boys should be allowed to serve, primarily because of the issue of roles. The boys should aspire to a man’s role in the world, particularly at Mass. Girls should not.

Now does that mean that there should be nothing for girls? Of course, not. Perhaps the Altar and Rosary Society should be comprised primarily of young girls, and there would be nothing wrong with having “flower girls” in the procession (as far as I can tell).

 

[ElizaCatherine]

I tend to read these threads and not reply, but I feel the need to share today. Like the OP I was raised in the Lutheran Church (ELCA), and my entire family is still there. I remember clearly “serving” on the Sundays that we had communion. I lit the candles and put out the trays on the altar rail where the communicants knelt to receive communion. I can tell you that the Lutheran Church has become nearly unrecognizable to me since those days. I know that God was calling me home to the Catholic Church for many years before I actually came home. I used to hold firm to a belief that women should hold and equal role to men in the Church (in terms of ordination, etc), but as I look back now I see that most of the women I knew who were “ordained” as Lutheran ministers seemed to have something to prove. I don’t dispute that they wanted to serve God, but I wonder why the attitude?

I’ve lived in the only Diocese where there are no altar girls, and I have lived in the neighboring Archdiocese where there are girls allowed. I think the girls tend to have the same attitude of the female Lutheran pastors I’ve experienced. They are out to prove that girls are just as important as boys. I think they are bossy and the boys just won’t serve rather than deal with the girls. (Before you pile on, my DH was the server coordinator, so I have first hand experience with this) In contrast, I’ve been to many Masses in the Diocese without girls, and I have watched as boys from about age 10-18 serve together. They work together to teach the younger boys what to do. It is truly a thing of beauty. I know the Diocese in question has quite a number of young men entering the seminary each year. I’ve watched many of them grow up.

Basically, I agree with nightwalker. There are other ways to involve the girls.

 

[thedavidwilson]

hi, I don’t mean to start a confrontation - this is just my upbringing in the lutheran church that comes out of me sometimes. I didn’t want to sound bad in the thread below about alter girls since the woman’s daugher would be reading the responses.

But, women can’t be priests (I can see this), and they can’t be deacons (can sort of see this), but why can’t they be alter girls? I mean, do we not want girls to participate in mass? They’re just to sit there and look pretty?

IMO, catholacism is shunning girls who may develop a more fuller and rich relationship with Christ but didn’t because they were “left out” and weren’t as important as the boys in their parishes. Can’t even be alter girls?

I just don’t get it. And is there a real reason or is it just because they say it’s that way and because (some) men don’t like it?

The role of Altar servers is a mechnism for dicerning a vocation for the priesthood. Since women cannot be priests then why would you want a girl doing a job that directs her to consider the priesthood. It would be like preparing a young boy for mothehood. It does not make logical sense.

 

[Margarite]

Just to tell you this is being discussed on another thread, here is the link:

 

[Margarite]

The role of Altar servers is a mechnism for dicerning a vocation for the priesthood. Since women cannot be priests then why would you want a girl doing a job that directs her to consider the priesthood. It would be like preparing a young boy for mothehood. It does not make logical sense.

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:
Good Point!
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[Saint_Gemma]

Altar girls have been around for sometime, as has been pointed out already. But it was no mean feat to get them up there in the first place. Being an “altar server” as it is now called, has an older name, “acolyte” which was one of the “lesser orders” that men passed through on their way to priesthood.

The seven main orders, as I recall, were: doorkeeper, reader, exorcist, acolyte, subdeacon, deacon, and priest. There is more to this but I’m summing up. The major seminary in Mundelein Illinois, St. Mary of the Lake, had the words inscribed on actual steps leading up the altar of their main chapel (it’s been years since I’ve been there). So you see, that “acolyte” is a higher order than “reader;” both of them lesser orders on the way to priesthood. Being an altar boy was more than just an attempt to “spark interest.” **And no one even questions letting women read at mass anymore.
**
I’d like to point out that this question “are girls not important?” is a logical fallacy: “ad misericordium” an appeal to pity. Seriously, it is devisive to use such language, but I don’t blame you. I’m reading a lot of posts on this website in general and I am floored by the amount of logical fallacies used in argumentation. Simply floored.

This is not true. Cloistered men and women are vital to the church, but the priest is the true arbitur, in persona christi in the sacraments. Different roles, but the sacramental role that priests play is the Church’s center of gravity, with monks and nuns and the rest of us in orbit.

I do. I see no reason for a layperson to read to the congregation when a priest is there.

 

[Naztakuan]

**ALTAR. **

A-L-T-A-R

Not “alter”. This drives me NUTS!

If you care enough to get into a thread about it, care enough to SPELL it right.

lol…yeah an AltEr girl is something else entirely

 

[drafdog]

Yes, women are important. They are our mothers, our sisters, our daughters, our wives. They taught us in school, cared for us in hospital, and are responsible for a very large portion of the good done over the years by the Catholic Church. They have been counselors to Popes, worked side by side with apostles and were held in high honor by the early church. The Tridentine Latin Mass we pray to be given some part in fellowship with the saints who have gone before us, listing eight men and seven women. We have been led astray by too many aspects of western culture while ignoring the plain import of sacred scripture. One day we will have women serving as deaconesses and priests in accordance with the letter to the church at Galacia. Not in our lifetimes perhaps, but eventually the Spirit will prevail.

Matthew

 

[Naztakuan]

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:
Good Point!
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

NOTHING prepares you for motherhood. So guys just get lucky?
They don’t have anything that prepares you for the convent either. Again…what’s up with that? It’s no small wonder that girls seem more confused than gius about what vocation they will pursue because really…The exposure is so limited. You see the Priest every sunday so you have an understanding but…who really knows what nuns are up to? So other than that you have constant exposure to Mothers and marriage so every girl just ASSUMES they’re gonna get married and have babies. Which simply is not true. So many women have probably missed their calling by the time they’re 40 and can’t figure out why the relationship thing didn’t work out. And then we get these complaints about there not being enough people of either sex pursuing a religious vocation. Gee…I wonder why? If people are under-exposed then they aren’t going to even consider it because they don’t know much. Back when my mom was in school, nuns actually taught and stuff and many of the girls grew up to become nuns. Now, most catholic schools hire professors. Altar boys become priests due to exposure to other priests at mass. But the last time I saw a nun was the doctor who did my pelvic exam. I almost never see them at church and if they are there, they don’t dress like nuns so none even notices.

 

[benedictgal]

Yes, women are important. They are our mothers, our sisters, our daughters, our wives. They taught us in school, cared for us in hospital, and are responsible for a very large portion of the good done over the years by the Catholic Church. They have been counselors to Popes, worked side by side with apostles and were held in high honor by the early church. The Tridentine Latin Mass we pray to be given some part in fellowship with the saints who have gone before us, listing eight men and seven women. We have been led astray by too many aspects of western culture while ignoring the plain import of sacred scripture. *** One day we will have women serving as deaconesses and priests in accordance with the letter to the church at Galacia. Not in our lifetimes perhaps, but eventually the Spirit will prevail***.

Matthew

You realize, that these “deaconnesses” were not clergy per se, but this interpretation is based on a feminst reading of scripture as opposed to how the Church actually interprets the term.

What you have posted, in essence, goes squarely agaisnt the Tradition of the Church, plain and simple.

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

I do. I see no reason for a layperson to read to the congregation when a priest is there.

Well, remember that only an ordained minister (deacon, priest or bishop) can proclaim the Gospel. No layperson has a right to that. Vatican II overall worked in terms of making the Mass more participatory. The word Liturgy means “work of the people.” There really is nothing anymore preventing lay people from reading the 1st and 2nd readings, or the psalm (or cantors from singing the psalms).