Are God and the devil fighting over His creation?

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504Katrin

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Hi all!
I’m a little bit nervous because this is my first thread but I want some opinions on this so badly that I will just give it a try 🙂

We all know that God created the universe. Now, there was a Pope who overheard a discusson between God and the devil (sorry have no link 😦 ) where the devil said to God that he could destroy his church within 100 years if God gave him time and power, and God said he should go ahead and try, knowing that His church can’t be destroyed.

Now, what if the devil is as old as God. And what if the devil is at battle with God for longer than we know? The devil is called Anti-Christ, the devil is anti-truth so to speak as he always lies, and he’s anti-God so to speak.

God created our universe. It is proven that our universe is expanding. There’s some Anti-matter and huge black hole that sucks everything up and leaves nothing. Which got me to thinking, what if this is the devil’s work, kindof they’ve been fighting each other since the very beginning the universe was created? Is this a too freaky of a thought? Any thoughts?
 
504Katrin said:
Hi all!
I’m a little bit nervous because this is my first thread but I want some opinions on this so badly that I will just give it a try 🙂

We all know that God created the universe.
Click to expand...
Do we? How do you know this?
Now, there was a Pope who overheard a discusson between God and the devil (sorry have no link 😦 )
Click to expand...
Never mind - a link to someone else making a baseless assertion has no more weight than you yourself making the assertion.
where the devil said to God that he could destroy his church within 100 years if God gave him time and power, and God said he should go ahead and try, knowing that His church can’t be destroyed.

Now, what if the devil is as old as God. And what if the devil is at battle with God for longer than we know? The devil is called Anti-Christ, the devil is anti-truth so to speak as he always lies, and he’s anti-God so to speak.

God created our universe. It is proven that our universe is expanding. There’s some Anti-matter and huge black hole that sucks everything up and leaves nothing. Which got me to thinking, what if this is the devil’s work, kindof they’ve been fighting each other since the very beginning the universe was created? Is this a too freaky of a thought? Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
I guess that if you base all your beliefs in pure speculation, you may speculate anything you like. This is certainly no more freaky than many other posts I’ve seen on this forum whose authors claim their own subjective imaginings to be fact.

You might get some objections to your hypothesis from those who arbitrarily place God “outside time” in order to sustain their faith in the Cosmological Argument. If God exists outside time then the word “old” ceases to have meaning, and the devil certainly couldn’t be as “old” as God if God is the unproven “first cause.”
 
504Katrin said:
Hi all!
I’m a little bit nervous because this is my first thread but I want some opinions on this so badly that I will just give it a try 🙂
Click to expand...
Good for you to take the leap 👍
We all know that God created the universe. Now, there was a Pope who overheard a discusson between God and the devil (sorry have no link 😦 ) where the devil said to God that he could destroy his church within 100 years if God gave him time and power, and God said he should go ahead and try, knowing that His church can’t be destroyed.
Click to expand...
This story is actually a legend and there are several versions. The pope in the story is Leo XIII, who apparently did have a vision of some description and as a result wrote the prayer to the Archangel Michael, which I’ll add at the end of this post. It might bring you comfort to recite it.
Now, what if the devil is as old as God.
Click to expand...
The one point that wanstronian had right was that God existed before anything else. He created the angels, although it isn’t recorded when he did this. The devil is a fallen angel, he rebelled against God and was thrown out of heaven, along with his cohorts. As a mere creature, the devil is not in any way equal to God.
And what if the devil is at battle with God for longer than we know? The devil is called Anti-Christ, the devil is anti-truth so to speak as he always lies, and he’s anti-God so to speak.

God created our universe. It is proven that our universe is expanding. There’s some Anti-matter and huge black hole that sucks everything up and leaves nothing. Which got me to thinking, what if this is the devil’s work, kindof they’ve been fighting each other since the very beginning the universe was created? Is this a too freaky of a thought? Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
Just my opinion, but from what I know about the devil he is more interested in people’s souls than destroying the rest of creation.

Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host -
by the Divine Power of God -
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,
who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen.
 
Here’s a longer version of the prayer to St. Michael.

O glorious Archangel St. Michael, Prince of the heavenly host, defend us in battle, and in the struggle which is ours against the principalities and Powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, against spirits of evil in high places (Eph 6:12). Come to the aid of men, whom God created immortal, made in his own image and likeness, and redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of the devil (Wis 2:23-24, 1 Cor 6:20).
Fight this day the battle of the Lord, together with the holy angels, as already thou hast fought the leader of the proud angels, Lucifer, and his apostate host, who were powerless to resist thee, nor was there place for them any longer in Heaven. But that cruel, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil or Satan, who seduces the whole world, was cast into the abyss with all his angels (Rev 12:7-9).
Behold, this primeval enemy and slayer of man has taken courage, Transformed into an angel of light, he wanders about with all the multitude of wicked spirits, invading the earth in order to blot out the name of God and of his Christ, to seize upon, slay and cast into eternal perdition souls destined for the crown of eternal glory. This wicked dragon pours out, as a most impure flood, the venom of his malice on men of depraved mind and corrupt heart, the spirit of lying, of impiety, of blasphemy, and the pestilent breath of impurity, and of every vice and iniquity.
These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall and bitterness the Church, the spouse of the Immaculate Lamb, and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions.
In the Holy Place itself, where has been set up the See of the most holy Peter and the Chair of Truth for the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be scattered.
Arise then, O invincible prince, bring help against the attacks of the lost spirits to the people of God, and bring them the victory.
The Church venerates thee as protector and patron; in thee holy Church glories as her defense against the malicious powers of this world and of hell; to thee has God entrusted the souls of men to be established in heavenly beatitude.
Oh, pray to the God of peace that He may put Satan under our feet, so far conquered that he may no longer be able to hold men in captivity and harm the Church. Offer our prayers in the sight of the Most High, so that they may quickly conciliate the mercies of the Lord; and beating down the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, do thou again make him captive in the abyss, that he may no longer seduce the nations.
This prayer was replaced in 1902, a year and a half before the death of Pope Leo XIII, by a much shortened prayer:
O glorious Archangel St. Michael, Prince of the heavenly host, defend us in battle, and in the struggle which is ours against the principalities and Powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, against spirits of evil in high places (Eph 6:12). Come to the aid of men, whom God created immortal, made in his own image and likeness, and redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of the devil (Wis 2:23-24, 1 Cor 6:20).
The Church venerates thee as protector and patron; to thee has God entrusted the souls of men to be established in heavenly beatitude.
Oh, pray to the God of peace that He may put Satan under our feet, so far conquered that he may no longer be able to hold men in captivity and harm the Church. Offer our prayers in the sight of the Most High, so that they may quickly conciliate the mercies of the Lord; and beating down the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, do thou again make him captive in the abyss, that he may no longer seduce the nations.
 
wanstronian said:
Do we? How do you know this?

Never mind - a link to someone else making a baseless assertion has no more weight than you yourself making the assertion.

I guess that if you base all your beliefs in pure speculation, you may speculate anything you like. This is certainly no more freaky than many other posts I’ve seen on this forum whose authors claim their own subjective imaginings to be fact.

You might get some objections to your hypothesis from those who arbitrarily place God “outside time” in order to sustain their faith in the Cosmological Argument. If God exists outside time then the word “old” ceases to have meaning, and the devil certainly couldn’t be as “old” as God if God is the unproven “first cause.”
Click to expand...
Thanks for your feedback wanstronian 🙂
Yeah common you know what I mean when I say “as old as God”? I mean that the devil might have already existed since around the time that the universe was created. I was wondering if the devil trying to mess with the universe might be the reason for the expandation of the universe? They were talking about an “unknown force” on TV recently that is about to destroy the universe, and scientists can’t explain what it is, they simply name it “anit-matter”, and it apparantly acts kind of like a huge black hole.

Why should the Pope have lied? Who in the world would profit from a lie, so what would be the use of it? It makes no sense at all for him to lie and say that he overheard a conversation that has never taken place.
 
seagal said:
Good for you to take the leap 👍

This story is actually a legend and there are several versions. The pope in the story is Leo XIII, who apparently did have a vision of some description and as a result wrote the prayer to the Archangel Michael, which I’ll add at the end of this post. It might bring you comfort to recite it.

The one point that wanstronian had right was that God existed before anything else. He created the angels, although it isn’t recorded when he did this. The devil is a fallen angel, he rebelled against God and was thrown out of heaven, along with his cohorts. As a mere creature, the devil is not in any way equal to God.

Just my opinion, but from what I know about the devil he is more interested in people’s souls than destroying the rest of creation.

Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host -
by the Divine Power of God -
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,
who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen.
Click to expand...
yes that’s true, he devil is actually one of his fallen angels. I also believe that he’s very interested in souls, but the thought of him trying to mess with Gods’ creation just made so much sense to me. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut 🙂
 
seagal said:
Here’s a longer version of the prayer to St. Michael.

O glorious Archangel St. Michael, Prince of the heavenly host, defend us in battle, and in the struggle which is ours against the principalities and Powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, against spirits of evil in high places (Eph 6:12). Come to the aid of men, whom God created immortal, made in his own image and likeness, and redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of the devil (Wis 2:23-24, 1 Cor 6:20).
Fight this day the battle of the Lord, together with the holy angels, as already thou hast fought the leader of the proud angels, Lucifer, and his apostate host, who were powerless to resist thee, nor was there place for them any longer in Heaven. But that cruel, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil or Satan, who seduces the whole world, was cast into the abyss with all his angels (Rev 12:7-9).
Behold, this primeval enemy and slayer of man has taken courage, Transformed into an angel of light, he wanders about with all the multitude of wicked spirits, invading the earth in order to blot out the name of God and of his Christ, to seize upon, slay and cast into eternal perdition souls destined for the crown of eternal glory. This wicked dragon pours out, as a most impure flood, the venom of his malice on men of depraved mind and corrupt heart, the spirit of lying, of impiety, of blasphemy, and the pestilent breath of impurity, and of every vice and iniquity.
These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall and bitterness the Church, the spouse of the Immaculate Lamb, and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions.
In the Holy Place itself, where has been set up the See of the most holy Peter and the Chair of Truth for the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be scattered.
Arise then, O invincible prince, bring help against the attacks of the lost spirits to the people of God, and bring them the victory.
The Church venerates thee as protector and patron; in thee holy Church glories as her defense against the malicious powers of this world and of hell; to thee has God entrusted the souls of men to be established in heavenly beatitude.
Oh, pray to the God of peace that He may put Satan under our feet, so far conquered that he may no longer be able to hold men in captivity and harm the Church. Offer our prayers in the sight of the Most High, so that they may quickly conciliate the mercies of the Lord; and beating down the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, do thou again make him captive in the abyss, that he may no longer seduce the nations.
This prayer was replaced in 1902, a year and a half before the death of Pope Leo XIII, by a much shortened prayer:
O glorious Archangel St. Michael, Prince of the heavenly host, defend us in battle, and in the struggle which is ours against the principalities and Powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, against spirits of evil in high places (Eph 6:12). Come to the aid of men, whom God created immortal, made in his own image and likeness, and redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of the devil (Wis 2:23-24, 1 Cor 6:20).
The Church venerates thee as protector and patron; to thee has God entrusted the souls of men to be established in heavenly beatitude.
Oh, pray to the God of peace that He may put Satan under our feet, so far conquered that he may no longer be able to hold men in captivity and harm the Church. Offer our prayers in the sight of the Most High, so that they may quickly conciliate the mercies of the Lord; and beating down the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, do thou again make him captive in the abyss, that he may no longer seduce the nations.
Click to expand...
I love you! You rock! :bowdown:
 
seagal said:
Just my opinion, but from what I know about the devil he is more interested in people’s souls than destroying the rest of creation.
Click to expand...
This brings up something that I actually came across in a movie, that got me to thinking, The soul is not actually ours, it is Gods. Therefore how can someone sell their soul. It is impossible to sell what is not yours.
 
BKulash_eski said:
This brings up something that I actually came across in a movie, that got me to thinking, The soul is not actually ours, it is Gods. Therefore how can someone sell their soul. It is impossible to sell what is not yours.
Click to expand...
Good point! What happens is that some individuals are prepared to “lose their soul” and give up heaven for the sake of personal satisfaction.
 
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